This is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL

[Seaweed Knees]

The important thing here is that this thread is highlighting an alternative and yes, cheaper route to the JAA fATPL. Once people have read the information in this thread it is up to them what they do.
To suggest that anyone is going to just fly off to the US with £16 because they have read this thread is rediculous.
People need to research this themselves before they make any decisions.

look at www.airdesertpacific.com and www.universalairacademy.com

The figures speak for themselves.

Phone all the UK scools that offer conversions and find out what they are quoting.

you WILL find that it is significantly lower than the cheapest modular course in the UK.
Infact, you will find that the cost of training and exam fees etc comes in significantly below the £20000 mark.

I dont care whether you believe me or the other guy about this or not. Just DO YOUR RESEARCH before you decide on your path to the fATPL

[moochooser]

I am glad that a few people have started to understand what this post was about. The costs I quoted at the start are indeed the bare minimums and I too would be very surprised if anyone completed it on that budget. The only reason I started this thread was to outline another option. Not for one second would I think someone would go to the states with £16,000 expecting to get a FATPL in a year. I did not include fees because neither do the UK schools and to make the quote comparable I decided to leave it out. Uk schools also quote a price based on bare minimums.

Irresponsible getting peoples hopes up??????????? What are you talking about? The whole reason I posted on pprune was so the people who may consider this route would be able to see the discussion that followed. Irresponsible would have been advertising in a publication. As far as irresponsible goes, call any of the UK schools offering integrated courses such as OAT (£56,000) tomorrow. Tell them you have just finished Uni and want to finally start the ATPL course with them so you can pursue you life long dream of becoming an airline pilot. Remember to ask what the job market is like and your prospects of finding that job you have always wanted. I bet they give you a very responsible answer.

I never said it was easy, I just outlined a route and prices. I do not have any other motive apart from helping people make an informed decision about training. I used to work for a school in the US but that was over a year ago and yes it is the one I mentioned, not because I want them to get students, it was because that is the only one I have any real experience of.

Why schools in the UK are still in business. I can answer that by using another example only involving less money. Why do people buy used Nissan skylines in the UK when you can get them shipped over from Japan for half the price. The answer is because it is easier if you have the money to get it in the UK. Also not everyone who wants one knows you can get them cheaper in Japan.

[silverknapper]

We are talking comparisons with modular courses - this has been stressed many times yet you still hark on about integrated, and choose the most expensive school as your model.
It's a funny comparison you use, the Nissan Skyline. It goes to prove there are two sides to every story. Anyone who has ever bought an imported one from Japan - a 'grey' import will know insurance companies are weird about them and parts are a nightmare. However this isn't car geek network so I won't be drawn into discussion on this.
Seaweed - I really hope you will find me someone who has a JAA CPL/IR, done in minimum hours and for 'significantly below the 20 grand mark'. I've tried round my contacts who have trained in the U.S - not one of them did.

[moochooser]

All I am saying is this is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL. Look at the title. I compared it to integrated because that is the most you can save. The cheapest method compared to the most expensive.

Anyway, I am getting very bored with this. I hope this thread has served its purpose and given those thinking of talking the plunge a bit more information about options some don't consider. Good luck with any route you take, you will need it either way.

[Tallbloke]

Elvis has left the building

[Seaweed Knees]

Elvis may have left, but Shakin' Stevens feels like rocking out a little longer.

Seaweed - I really hope you will find me someone who has a JAA CPL/IR, done in minimum hours and for 'significantly below the 20 grand mark'. I've tried round my contacts who have trained in the U.S - not one of them did.

Is that really it?
Your entire reason for trying to debunk this thread hinges on the fact that it is not possible to convert in the minimum time. Yet, the reason you have finally given is that you dont know anyone who did it?

Do you know anyone who trained in the US for the specific purpose of returning to convert?

The simple fact is; if it is possible to complete the JAA IR, or CPL for that matter in the UK without exceeding the minimum times (Which it is), then it is possible to train to the same sylabus in the states, return to the UK, complete an additional 15 hours of training and pass the IR checkride.

How can you deny this?

Please, if you reply, tell everybody what it is specifically, that is going to prevent a person who has completed the FAA training plus 15 hours of the JAA training from passing the Checkride.

I ask only that you back up the statements you have made with some logical reasoning.

[stefair]

moochooser,

Thank you for your posting. It's helped me a great deal, but I think we've discussed this via email already, right? ;-)

[silverknapper]

It has been interesting, but sadly getting boring now. When seaweed has a JAA IR then maybe I'll listen to his arguments. Another recent post of his here demonstrates he seems to be just a typing advert for U.S schools.

Thanks all for both points of view

[Ibanez]

Well, here are the ACTUAL expenses paid thus far- every single penny. I'm currently in the process of doing an ICAO licence conversion. All prices include VAT. Distance learning was done through Cabair (they had an easter special last year and hence the low cost). Miscellaneous equipment include costs like maps, stop watch, knee board etc. Don't let your ICAO licence lapse during the ground school phase. It must be current for the conversion, but that can be renewed whilst undergoing the necesary conversion training. Accomodation includes the 4 week residential for the distance learning and the accomodation whilst undergoing flight training.


Distance learning - £998
Medical 2004 (JAR) - £250
Miscellaneous Equipment - £82
Exam fees - £770
Medical 2005 (JAR / ICAO) - £157
Radio licence - £50
ICAO renewal - £150
Courier of ICAO licence - £46
Accommodation - £612

Flying costs (5hrs sim, 5 hrs twin, 5 hrs single):

Simulator - £625
Single - £1045
Twin - £1405
Twin (test) - £432
Test Fee IR - £637
MEP Rating - £281
MEP Test fee - £100
Approach Fees - £63
MCC Course (737-200) - £3400


Total costs untill completion of IR: £11103

You can obviously save about £1000 if you do an MCC course on a TP. I'm starting my CPL training (hours as required) next week, but the figures budgeted for are:

Fixed pitch single - £450
Variable pitch, retractable U/C single - £1175
Test Fee CPL - £637
Approach Fees - £60
Accomodation - £100

TOTAL COST: £13525

Hope that helps. Depending on where you do the ground school, it takes about a year to complete everything. Allow 3 months to complete flight training.

CHEERS!!!

[7006 fan]

I have found this thread very interesting and useful, some of the comments are, in my opinion, slightly 'off beam' but still worthwhile. It somewhat overcomes my question under a different topic heading "CPL (on the cheap)".
One thing I find interesting in the argument, is that of cost. Could one compare the statements made in the late 1990's about 'lo-cost'. All the flag carriers stated it was impossible to fly to xyz for less than the prices they were charging so we all paid £200+ to fly to Paris etc. OK lo-cost is an uncomfortable, cattle truck experience but it offers low price travel and the same level of safety (I hope!!!) as scheduled services. And now lo-cost has made the 'big guys' lower their fares to be more competitive, therefore if the training is good safe and of quality, resulting in the provision of a correct licence to fly, then so be it. Or is the suggestion that pilots of United, Delta TWA etc are somehow 2nd class pilots as they have not learnt to fly in the UK?!

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Well, I currently have my FAA ratings up to CPL/IR with all of the instructor ratings. Nearly all of my training was done on a twin, the same twin I will use for my UK IR conversion. I also have an instructing job in the US on a visa that will build my time up to 1000hrs, most of which will be multi and lots instrument. I had the good sense to do the ATPL theory straight after my PPL so that makes it pretty easy, albeit pricey to do the conversion. I reckon by the time I'm finished with the JAA conversion I will have spent about 40,000-45,000GBP. This includes living expenses and is based on realistic training and conversion costs, not minimums.

It's probably possible to spend less doing all of the training in the UK; but then with 200hrs I find it hard to believe that I would get any kind of job. I realise that not having much time in UK airspace may be a problem for many employers, hence the reason I'm also converting my instructor rating. If I'm lucky I may even get a job flying N reg turboprops or jets.

I don't think training in the US to CPL/IR and converting at minimum hours makes sense though. If you do the ATPL theory after the FAA stuff that will take 6+ months in which your flying skills will rust away. That increases the potential of conversion costs snowballing. At the end of the process you still have only 300hrs and that still in all probability makes you unemployable.

As a means of buliding up quality twin and instrument time to what I consider to be an employable amount of hours (1000ish) for turboprop and air taxi jobs I still believe the US is the way to go. In the five years I've been reading Pprune I've seen plenty of US trained posters go on to airline jobs.

[Seaweed Knees]

When seaweed has a JAA IR then maybe I'll listen to his arguments. Another recent post of his here demonstrates he seems to be just a typing advert for U.S schools.

The fact that you have failed to answer my question in every one of your posts, has infact answered it quite satisfatorily.

I'd just like to praise you on your outstanding detective skills also. Youve exposed me. I am indeed trying to advertise the benefits of US schools. Why you felt the need to link another thread however is beyond me. Surely there is enough evidence in this thread alone for you to build your case.

Fair weather, I dont know what to say. I completed my FAA training all expenses for £11000. I found a job and built to 750 before my return. (admitadly, my living expenses became VERY low, almost negative during that time)

I hope my conversion isnt going to cost an additional £34000!!!!!

Especialy since I was quoted £12000. And I didnt shop around.


I'll admit, I have been very shrewd and miserly during my training. I took advantage of every freebie going. I rode in the back of other aircraft on IR training flights to observe on a regular basis.

I used the books of those who had gone before me and bought nothing new except charts and plates.

I convinced JAA hour building pilots to fly their cross countrys under the hood, so that I could fly as safety pilot and log the hours toward my total required for the CPL in exchange for the evenings beer.

Heres another one. www.craigslist.com is a website where you can find people looking to share cars from one city to another. Advertise your intention to fly between two citys and you will be inundated with people wanting to share the costs.

There are numerous ways to save money if you are willing to find them and take the trouble.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

The cost I have given you includes everything from flight training costs to airfares, US medical insurance, car insurance checkrides the whole lot. Many of the costs that have been quoted in this thread are simply not realistic. For example, I've seen the ATPL ground as costing just 1200. To do it with a reputable school would cost 1800; add in 800 for exams; add another 3000 for living expenses and hotel accomodation and you get a long way from the 1200 that someone mentioned. I reckon that I've spent about 15,000 on FAA flight training, another 14,000 will be spent on the conversion, which includes converting the CFI to FI. When you start to add living expenses in, the figure creeps towards the 40,000 mark. Of course living in the UK is not free so I'll probably save 15,000ish on a UK ATPL course.

Also, as an aside I noticed that Seaweed Knees mentioned logging safety pilot time, whilst flying with pilots who are under the hood. Fine for the FAA but as far as I know the JAA do not allow this time to be logged. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Also, if you do the ATPL theory after the FAA training then your skills will become very rusty and the conversion will be VERY expensive. I've said it before and I'll say it again, do the ATPL's after the FAA PPL or you are in for trouble!

[Seaweed Knees]

Fine for the FAA but as far as I know the JAA do not allow this time to be logged.

Absolutely correct, but I think thats probably why the FAA requires 250 for the CPL as opposed to 150.

As soon as the conversion is made, only time in the left seat can be logged.

[sk8erboi]

Last time I looked it was 200, not 150 for a JAA CPL.
Thank you Fair weather for bringing some common sense to this argument. It is refreshing to see someone who has researched their licence thoroughly making a post, not people with a commercial interest.

[Seaweed Knees]

Sk8erboi,
I assume that you are including me in the catagory of people you do not think have researched their licence.

You have no idea what I have been through in the last 2 years in order to arrive at the position i'm at now.
I know very few people who have been as careful or dedicated as I have been in the training choices they've made. Perhaps that is the reason many of you seem to see me as a liar when I speak of the savings i've made, you dont understand what it is to be a trainee pilot without the funds.

My posts have simply been an attempt on my part to illustrate that it can be possible to do what many of you have done, except with a far lower budget.

I know why many of you are scoffing at the idea.
What I cannot understand however, is how so many of you can claim that this is unfeasable and yet offer no explanation as to why you believe that.



OK, so its 200 not 150 hours. Its been a while since that figure has been relevant to me.

Apparently there is some suspicion about my motives for posting here. I'm working for a US school or something, is that it? Rediculous.

I do remember from a previous thread that You are an instructor here in the UK though Sk8erboi. Interesting for you to be talking about commercial interests.

I infact have no affiliation with any flight centre, American or otherwise. Instruction is the absolute last avenue I would go down in persuit of hours.

Once I've recovered from my ankle fracture, i'll be starting on a twin turboprop here in the UK.
I have so far not needed to convert my licence or ratings to JAA and hopefully will not need to. Conversion has always been plan B, which is why I did not sit my ATPLs before my flight training as fair weather wisely suggested.

I do enjoy a good debate, but I have to say that you guys really aren't argueing a case here, you're just telling me i'm wrong.

Whilst reading this thread, i've often been reminded of the classic defence in childhood arguements:

"Why?"

"Just because!"

Come on, surely you can do better than that.

[B2N2]

Have to agree with you on that one Seaweed, I've been advocating flying in the US for a long time.
The time and money savings are simply staggering.
But like with everything you need to plan, plan and plan again.
Before I went US I spent a YEAR planning.
Do your home work people before you go.
If you need to fly/ train a certain way, let us know.
You cannot expect training providers in the US to be up to date with training requirements from other places in the world.
Talk to your examiners (multiple) contact the CAA and ask ask ask everything you need to know about training requirements, procedures and anything else.
PM for more info, and yes I do work for a US school.

[mad_jock]

I reckon if you have got the ability and have the balls to play the game go for it.

I did the semi US the rest Uk and it cost about 30k three years ago including a FI rating.

If you can get it for the prices mentioned on this thread it means your starting with a type rating for the same cost as someone with a MCC and CPL/IR UK training wise.

To be honest the more i see of people flying the less it is about where you did your training and more about the person. If the extra 15-20K gets the interview it is money well spent if not...
It may mean you go striaght in on Jet on 30-40k a year as an FO or without its 18-25k on turboprop.

Things are changing. Although out of the market for quite a few months now all I hear about is people getting jobs. Line trainers are commenting on low hours (and thats not a negative thing just more work for them on the handling but less on the bad habits, 6 months down the line no difference)

Its a personal prefference thing and a cost there will be 10% out there who can manage the route described and there is another 70% who will struggle and just make it and 20% who it will cost more for.

Personally as an ex FI i would recomend doing the PPL in the UK just to get into the British way of doing things but.... I didn't and now know how much extra work it meant and i did get through in min hours. BUt the CPL/IR was more work than it should have been.

People don't like being told you can do it cheaper than they did. Hence the multiple threads about intergrated and modular with both sides fighting there corners. With many FTO's posting covering with blind users ID's.

Unfortunatly even pilots that qualified 6 months ago are out of the system and really can't give a reasonable opinion on any flight school.

I used to think AAA were a bunch of fleecing bastards but the last 5 people who i have spoken to thought they had value for money and the price they paid seemed reasonable.

OAT I used to think were the best thing for ground but apprently all the decent instructors have left. And i also hear that the CAA is not happy with the full question bank CD rom which they are giving students which is why everyone is getting shafted with new questions coming on line every month.

My old land lord has just done his brush up with Bristol and wasn't very impressed with a couple of instructors especially the AKN who is appernetly the best in the knowledge side of things but can't teach a room to save his life.

Its a bloody nightmare choosing schools etc and 1 month down the line all previous opinions arn't really valid.

Good luck people I am glad i don't have to choose again.

MJ

[Alex Whittingham]

I don't see any covert posters here. What you've got is a couple of chaps who think they can do an ATPL for less than anybody has ever been able to do it, but haven't tried it yet, and a number of people telling them they are mistaken in varying degrees including representatives of Jaa approved American FTOs. Time will tell.

[mad_jock]

Alex I hope you don't think i was having a go personally at your school with the AKN instructor. I was trying to put across that everything is personal opinion and in some respects in the hands of the gods.

The fact that opinions based on fact 6 months ago really arn't valid anymore. Such is the speed which the training in the UK changes.

MJ