CPL, IR, FIR in Scotland - up to date views?
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CPL, IR, FIR in Scotland - up to date views?
I know there are a couple of threads about this but there are not many up to date opinions, and schools are not static, staff change, prices go up and down, some get new planes, etc etc.
I am going to do a CPL course in Scotland next year and probably an Instructor rating (unless the job market is looking so good that an IR is preferable). So, I would like to hear from anyone who has views on the various places - as far as I know Tayside, Tayflight and Prestwick for the CPL and just Tayside for the FI.
I know it's cheaper to go to the likes of EFT or NAC but I want to work in Scotland (ideally) so would prefer to do the training there - with the exception of the ground school for which Bristol got the business.
Thanks
aged
I am going to do a CPL course in Scotland next year and probably an Instructor rating (unless the job market is looking so good that an IR is preferable). So, I would like to hear from anyone who has views on the various places - as far as I know Tayside, Tayflight and Prestwick for the CPL and just Tayside for the FI.
I know it's cheaper to go to the likes of EFT or NAC but I want to work in Scotland (ideally) so would prefer to do the training there - with the exception of the ground school for which Bristol got the business.
Thanks
aged
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Without a doubt Tayside. Other two have poor pass rates. Tayflite don't even have a complex single as of a few weeks ago. Sandy is one of the best instructors around, and will do the FI if you go on to it.
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I'd also be keen to hear of experiences of training in Scotland. In particular, Tayside. I have heard good things about them, in particular Sandy (Torrance?).
Have they just recently changed hands (Parent company?), and has this affected the training setup, or just the PPL hire-rates?
Cheers,
LF
Have they just recently changed hands (Parent company?), and has this affected the training setup, or just the PPL hire-rates?
Cheers,
LF
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Speaking from very recent first hand experience, I can offer the following nuggets of information ...
After more than a decade of CPL instructing, Sandy Torrance has been observed this very week, studying on a MCC course at Multiflight, for some reason known only to himself and probably wholly unrelated to the current scottish airline hiring boom
It's Tayflite that do the IR, not Tayside.
They are both basically good outfits with nice instructors.
Slight drawback at Tayflite is they tend to take on too many students for their one sim / one PA28R / two PA34's, leading to a lot of pressure on the resources, and difficulty getting all the sim time / attention from instructor that you need. Their main sim instructor left a few months ago to have a baby and they haven't taken anyone on to replace her yet.
Slight drawback at Tayside is, 1) the uncertain future of the company since it's recently been sold, and 2) they charge about £45 per hour more for their Arrow
Everyone is having major major wrangles with the Perth based CAA examiner at present. Getting a bit too old and grumpy me thinks. He hasn't given anyone a first time IR pass for at least 6 months that I'm aware of, and take it from me it's NOT because of the lack of quality candidates. He's always taken a certain perverse delight in his image as a bit of an eccentric cranky old b@stard but there's been story after story coming out of the flight tests that he's become verging on abusive to his candidates lately, just blowing up at them the minute he walks into the flight test room and doing as much as he possibly can to unnerve their confidence before they step into the aircraft.
One typical example from recent weeks, involves a guy with over 3000 hours heavy turbine logged in another country, carrying out a straightforward JAA CPL/IR conversion which 'should' have only taken a few hours flying. Poor guy spent months up there, ended up taking four attempts EACH for the CPL and IR. You might think maybe he deserved it, except that directly after his first two consecutive IR fails he had an interview and sim ride with Gulf Air and passed them both with flying colours. He then found himself in the ludicrous position of having a major long haul airline breathing down his neck to give him a start date on the Airbus, but had to trudge back up to Scotland and still had to spend another couple of attempts before he was worthy to pass the Perth IR test. Good enough for Gulf Air but not good enough for a certain examiner, gimme a break
After more than a decade of CPL instructing, Sandy Torrance has been observed this very week, studying on a MCC course at Multiflight, for some reason known only to himself and probably wholly unrelated to the current scottish airline hiring boom
It's Tayflite that do the IR, not Tayside.
They are both basically good outfits with nice instructors.
Slight drawback at Tayflite is they tend to take on too many students for their one sim / one PA28R / two PA34's, leading to a lot of pressure on the resources, and difficulty getting all the sim time / attention from instructor that you need. Their main sim instructor left a few months ago to have a baby and they haven't taken anyone on to replace her yet.
Slight drawback at Tayside is, 1) the uncertain future of the company since it's recently been sold, and 2) they charge about £45 per hour more for their Arrow
Everyone is having major major wrangles with the Perth based CAA examiner at present. Getting a bit too old and grumpy me thinks. He hasn't given anyone a first time IR pass for at least 6 months that I'm aware of, and take it from me it's NOT because of the lack of quality candidates. He's always taken a certain perverse delight in his image as a bit of an eccentric cranky old b@stard but there's been story after story coming out of the flight tests that he's become verging on abusive to his candidates lately, just blowing up at them the minute he walks into the flight test room and doing as much as he possibly can to unnerve their confidence before they step into the aircraft.
One typical example from recent weeks, involves a guy with over 3000 hours heavy turbine logged in another country, carrying out a straightforward JAA CPL/IR conversion which 'should' have only taken a few hours flying. Poor guy spent months up there, ended up taking four attempts EACH for the CPL and IR. You might think maybe he deserved it, except that directly after his first two consecutive IR fails he had an interview and sim ride with Gulf Air and passed them both with flying colours. He then found himself in the ludicrous position of having a major long haul airline breathing down his neck to give him a start date on the Airbus, but had to trudge back up to Scotland and still had to spend another couple of attempts before he was worthy to pass the Perth IR test. Good enough for Gulf Air but not good enough for a certain examiner, gimme a break
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It is not the first that i have heard that a heavy pilot (that is big aircraft rather than big boned) has struggle with a return to light piston flying...may be it is not the examiner to blame?
Agree with most that has been said in the previous posts. Tayside has been taken over by a company called Thistle aviation. Most of the changes are happening at Fife and involve expanding the set up there. No real difference have been felt at Perth. It is always worth phoning tayside to get a quote on the price of a CPL course. I know that they have charged people less than the advertised price on their internet site, although I guess they may ask for a small amount of pre-payment.
Tayflite do the IRs, and probably will not be doing Cpls for sometime, as there PA28 is knackered. There 2 instructors seem good, but they do tend not to replace staff when they leave, which is not the best policy at a busy school.
From what has been said earlier I hope Tayside will not have to look for someone to follow in ST's shoes, as it would be a difficult act to follow.
Do not fear the examiner, if there is a problem with the conduct of the test, report it to the CAA, if not, and the test was a fail, is that the examiner's fault or the candidates?
Agree with most that has been said in the previous posts. Tayside has been taken over by a company called Thistle aviation. Most of the changes are happening at Fife and involve expanding the set up there. No real difference have been felt at Perth. It is always worth phoning tayside to get a quote on the price of a CPL course. I know that they have charged people less than the advertised price on their internet site, although I guess they may ask for a small amount of pre-payment.
Tayflite do the IRs, and probably will not be doing Cpls for sometime, as there PA28 is knackered. There 2 instructors seem good, but they do tend not to replace staff when they leave, which is not the best policy at a busy school.
From what has been said earlier I hope Tayside will not have to look for someone to follow in ST's shoes, as it would be a difficult act to follow.
Do not fear the examiner, if there is a problem with the conduct of the test, report it to the CAA, if not, and the test was a fail, is that the examiner's fault or the candidates?
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I have just completed my CPL/IR with Tayflite and in my opinion they provided excellent instruction and value for money. I passed both first time and in a total of 7 weeks. I have also heard positive things about Tayside who I am sure provide excellent CPL training. However, as with every training course and establishment, it has a lot to do with the individual and what he/she puts into their training. My experiences of Tayflite are extremely positive and I would recommend them without hesitation.
I am now off to Tayside for my FI cse and very much looking forward to it.
The comment about the CAA examiner above, is both, grossly unfair and untrue. I know of several people who have passed first time with this examiner. All too easy to blame the examiner for individual failings!! There has not been a candidate at Tayflite who has failed their test recently, who could possibly have blamed the examiner for being unreasonable. In fact, when they have eventually passed, they have found him to be very generous indeed (including the experienced pilot that Ajax speaks of).
Navoff
I am now off to Tayside for my FI cse and very much looking forward to it.
The comment about the CAA examiner above, is both, grossly unfair and untrue. I know of several people who have passed first time with this examiner. All too easy to blame the examiner for individual failings!! There has not been a candidate at Tayflite who has failed their test recently, who could possibly have blamed the examiner for being unreasonable. In fact, when they have eventually passed, they have found him to be very generous indeed (including the experienced pilot that Ajax speaks of).
Navoff
Last edited by navoff; 9th Dec 2004 at 09:58.
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Navoff - congratulations, nice one (or two). That sounds pretty quick and efficient. Were you flying Monday to Friday, weekends off (what I've been told about Tayflite)
Not good news if ST were to leave I imagine as every good comment I've read or heard about Tayside has included "ST" in it. If he were to leave would they continue commercial training? Starting again with an unknown instructor could take some hard work.
If, and I know it's only if, he were to leave then Scotland would be down to one fairly new place at Prestwick and Tayflite would presumably sit up and smile. Not enough competition is a bad thing generally.
Not good news if ST were to leave I imagine as every good comment I've read or heard about Tayside has included "ST" in it. If he were to leave would they continue commercial training? Starting again with an unknown instructor could take some hard work.
If, and I know it's only if, he were to leave then Scotland would be down to one fairly new place at Prestwick and Tayflite would presumably sit up and smile. Not enough competition is a bad thing generally.
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That's a bit harsh SK.
All right, there's only two people who know everything that happened on that flight test but I am just relaying the widely reported version of events as I heard it. Nothing I said in that last post was untrue, or privileged information, everyone who's been on the airfield in the last few months knows the guy and knows the story.
Maybe it's not the examiner, maybe it's the British IR examining system, I dunno. It does happen though, there was (according to RUMOUR) an examiner at Leeds several years ago who got quietly removed from the examining roster after a run of 49 consecutive IR flight tests without a first-time-pass. It would be very interesting to compare notes and pass rates for these people but I guess that's all highly confidential isn't it.
Would it be uncharitable to suggest that maybe, just maybe possibly, the group of vastly experienced international airline captains that work as the examiners and sim instructors at a huge gold-plated mega carrier like Gulf Air, might actually be "more" suitably qualified to assess a pilot's IFR proficiency than a partially retired, eccentric old military pilot in some hillbilly flying-school-and-microlight airstrip in the scottish highlands?
I am surprised, the general impression I got was that the examiner was very unpopular around that airport, and the majority of the students in training were dreading having to go up against him. I guess I was wrong in that assessment. The public will make up their own minds I'm sure. Apologies to anyone for any offense caused.
All right, there's only two people who know everything that happened on that flight test but I am just relaying the widely reported version of events as I heard it. Nothing I said in that last post was untrue, or privileged information, everyone who's been on the airfield in the last few months knows the guy and knows the story.
Maybe it's not the examiner, maybe it's the British IR examining system, I dunno. It does happen though, there was (according to RUMOUR) an examiner at Leeds several years ago who got quietly removed from the examining roster after a run of 49 consecutive IR flight tests without a first-time-pass. It would be very interesting to compare notes and pass rates for these people but I guess that's all highly confidential isn't it.
Would it be uncharitable to suggest that maybe, just maybe possibly, the group of vastly experienced international airline captains that work as the examiners and sim instructors at a huge gold-plated mega carrier like Gulf Air, might actually be "more" suitably qualified to assess a pilot's IFR proficiency than a partially retired, eccentric old military pilot in some hillbilly flying-school-and-microlight airstrip in the scottish highlands?
I am surprised, the general impression I got was that the examiner was very unpopular around that airport, and the majority of the students in training were dreading having to go up against him. I guess I was wrong in that assessment. The public will make up their own minds I'm sure. Apologies to anyone for any offense caused.
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Hello All
As mentioned, the Flight Instructors Course is one of the courses offered at Prestwick Flight Centre, the students who have attended this course have all been very impressed with the standard of instruction given by Henry Crone (CFI) , two of the students for the FIC also went on to instruct at the PPL side of the school.
With regards to the "poor pass rates" previously mentioned by Silverknapper, what exactly are the pass rates for the courses offered at PFC, Silverknapper ? they look pretty good to me !
Before I get jumped on by someone saying that I work there, no I dont ! I done all of my hours building/CPL and am currently attending the IR course at PFC.
I have found the standard of instruction offered by PFC to be excellent, the Instructors are all very experienced and do make time for you if you have any problems.
Howski
As mentioned, the Flight Instructors Course is one of the courses offered at Prestwick Flight Centre, the students who have attended this course have all been very impressed with the standard of instruction given by Henry Crone (CFI) , two of the students for the FIC also went on to instruct at the PPL side of the school.
With regards to the "poor pass rates" previously mentioned by Silverknapper, what exactly are the pass rates for the courses offered at PFC, Silverknapper ? they look pretty good to me !
Before I get jumped on by someone saying that I work there, no I dont ! I done all of my hours building/CPL and am currently attending the IR course at PFC.
I have found the standard of instruction offered by PFC to be excellent, the Instructors are all very experienced and do make time for you if you have any problems.
Howski
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Whatever was 'confidential' in the past ain't confidential from January next year thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. Why don't you ask the CAA what the first time pass rates are with each examiner? I'm sure they would expect to be able to say that FCL Standards are doing their job and that there are no geographic or personal variations in pass rates.
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OK then howski tell me how many people have got first time IR passes there. And what aircraft are they using now?The beaten up air charter 310s or the cougar with no anti ice? In a Scottish winter it's not really the ideal aircraft.
I know two people who have been there and neither have a good word to say. Indeed someone involved in examining told me to steer clear.
I know two people who have been there and neither have a good word to say. Indeed someone involved in examining told me to steer clear.
Ajax
Sorry but that's utter rot.
From a regular at the airport and a first time GFT pass in the good old days with the said examiner. So I may be biased.
The other half has just piped up to say
"He's very fair"
impression I got was that the examiner was very unpopular around that airport
From a regular at the airport and a first time GFT pass in the good old days with the said examiner. So I may be biased.
The other half has just piped up to say
"He's very fair"
Last edited by Floppy Link; 10th Dec 2004 at 19:26.
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Personally I think ajax has hit the nail on the head and said something which many have thought for a while. The examiner does pride himself in his eccentric image - and if your face doesn't fit in you know it.
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He examined me only a couple of months ago. I found him very fair. This is getting boring now - if anyone has a problem then go about it through the proper channels, not on an anonymous forum.
I passed a combined test with him some 5 years ago when I converted from my Oz & FAA ATPLs. I thought he was fine. Very fair. Pinged me on those areas he should have, applied the rules as they should be etc.
I'm suprised at the negative comments.
I'm suprised at the negative comments.
