Oxford vs Bournemouth eptauk
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The average age of wannabees here is in the early twenties. Training is an unfortunate, expensive but very brief part of a career that, hopefully, lasts 30, and in some cases, 40 years as a professional.
Therefore our mods are strictly here to ease the passage through a world based on making a living from you for a finite target period.
Their remit is to make every possible effort to put wannabees straight - especially if they don't like it. Two mods counter both the helpless, naive and uniformed and the blandishments of those making a living from you.
The mods are here to see you enter a career measured in decades and not to help those in the flight training industry pay this month's mortgage. This can seem a little unsettling in a world where everyone else in print, on the web and in person promises they are the not only the best but promises to 'love you long, long time.'
When someone gets short shrift here it's making a point to wannabees in general. Should this be discomfitting to you a representative of a training organisation will be along shortly to stroke you, your brow, ego and credit line.
The mods are doing exactly what we expect of them and a perusal of their collected posts will demonstrate the art of using 'tone' to pass on a deeper meaning.
You're probably here for the long run - we'll still be here long after you abandon this forum making sure there's reliable, non commercial pointers to finding high quality providers. They are absolutely, definitely out there but this forum simply wouldn't exist if it was simple and straightforward to find them and also a plan that suits you.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
Therefore our mods are strictly here to ease the passage through a world based on making a living from you for a finite target period.
Their remit is to make every possible effort to put wannabees straight - especially if they don't like it. Two mods counter both the helpless, naive and uniformed and the blandishments of those making a living from you.
The mods are here to see you enter a career measured in decades and not to help those in the flight training industry pay this month's mortgage. This can seem a little unsettling in a world where everyone else in print, on the web and in person promises they are the not only the best but promises to 'love you long, long time.'
When someone gets short shrift here it's making a point to wannabees in general. Should this be discomfitting to you a representative of a training organisation will be along shortly to stroke you, your brow, ego and credit line.
The mods are doing exactly what we expect of them and a perusal of their collected posts will demonstrate the art of using 'tone' to pass on a deeper meaning.
You're probably here for the long run - we'll still be here long after you abandon this forum making sure there's reliable, non commercial pointers to finding high quality providers. They are absolutely, definitely out there but this forum simply wouldn't exist if it was simple and straightforward to find them and also a plan that suits you.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
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Just to let you know I did my ATPL Groundschool, CPL,ME-IR and MCC at EPTA.
Not only was the cost of Training about £18,000 cheaper that oxfords modular course, the training is great too.
The Groundschool is Amazing, Keith Williams and his team are the best Instructors in the business. Offering to stay behind after class and during lunch hours.
The Flying side is Fantastic too. Its the staff at EPTA that really make it a fantastic School. Vic Foyle & Ernie Ball Are Truly Amazing!!!!!! The aircraft are Tidy and well equipped and Bournemouth Airport itself is a great place to train.
The MCC is very Professional and Very well done.
As you can see I was very pleased with EPTA and I would reccomend them to anyone.
The only Gripe that i have with them is that when you finish the course there is very little help in preparing you for applying for jobs or giving you any contacts.( is that worth the £18,000 difference in oxfords prices)
Nevertheless.....a great Place to train.
Not only was the cost of Training about £18,000 cheaper that oxfords modular course, the training is great too.
The Groundschool is Amazing, Keith Williams and his team are the best Instructors in the business. Offering to stay behind after class and during lunch hours.
The Flying side is Fantastic too. Its the staff at EPTA that really make it a fantastic School. Vic Foyle & Ernie Ball Are Truly Amazing!!!!!! The aircraft are Tidy and well equipped and Bournemouth Airport itself is a great place to train.
The MCC is very Professional and Very well done.
As you can see I was very pleased with EPTA and I would reccomend them to anyone.
The only Gripe that i have with them is that when you finish the course there is very little help in preparing you for applying for jobs or giving you any contacts.( is that worth the £18,000 difference in oxfords prices)
Nevertheless.....a great Place to train.
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WWW I feel you have somewhat missed my point. I am all for heated debate, love it in fact, and appear to have provoked the beginnings of one here with you and Scroggs. This is a good thing, for which I do not apologise.
My point was to do with personal remarks about people. Not heated discourse, or even controversy. I felt strongly so I commented, which I think is what you expect to be able to do yourself, and quite rightly.
If you are required to call people that name to which Scroggs referred instead of intelligently firing back when someone provokes you, it says something about your argument.
Argue by all means. No one is asking for a yes man. But don't be tempted by cheap remarks, with asterisks in the middle of them, in an effort to tone down their extreme nature. There are people here who don't think it is too clever, and perhaps expect more from someone who holds the mildly authoritative position of moderator.
Sure there is backstabbing in the industry, but I don't have to like it. I am not new to this industry at all, and if I want to tackle someone like you or Scroggs then I don't see why I should not. Why should I get used to your opinion, or the way you phrase it? Why can I not question it here? The answer is that I can and I will and I have done.
You appear to speak from a position of experience. Fair one. This does not make you beyond reproach. I understand from your comments that you should be allowed to say what you like, when you like, and in an insulting way if you like. It is only the latter to which I object.
Sure others here allow themselves to be consumed with the bickering and backstabbing which occurs, but if you are to moderate others comments, than you ought be a little, if not a lot, whiter than they. This inevitably makes your role a more challenging one, question is are all moderators up to it? Perhaps you would answer that inflammatory question.
My point was to do with personal remarks about people. Not heated discourse, or even controversy. I felt strongly so I commented, which I think is what you expect to be able to do yourself, and quite rightly.
If you are required to call people that name to which Scroggs referred instead of intelligently firing back when someone provokes you, it says something about your argument.
Argue by all means. No one is asking for a yes man. But don't be tempted by cheap remarks, with asterisks in the middle of them, in an effort to tone down their extreme nature. There are people here who don't think it is too clever, and perhaps expect more from someone who holds the mildly authoritative position of moderator.
Sure there is backstabbing in the industry, but I don't have to like it. I am not new to this industry at all, and if I want to tackle someone like you or Scroggs then I don't see why I should not. Why should I get used to your opinion, or the way you phrase it? Why can I not question it here? The answer is that I can and I will and I have done.
You appear to speak from a position of experience. Fair one. This does not make you beyond reproach. I understand from your comments that you should be allowed to say what you like, when you like, and in an insulting way if you like. It is only the latter to which I object.
Sure others here allow themselves to be consumed with the bickering and backstabbing which occurs, but if you are to moderate others comments, than you ought be a little, if not a lot, whiter than they. This inevitably makes your role a more challenging one, question is are all moderators up to it? Perhaps you would answer that inflammatory question.
Thanks to captaintrigger for sharing his experiences of EPTA. I know that obviously the flying and groundschool is the most important factor but what type of accomodation did you use and what did you think of the city of Bournemouth ( please don't interpet this as me looking at training as though it will be a party everynight).
One question to people like Butler, WWW and Zcar. If you were an airline and you wanted fifty pilots of F/O type ab intio. Where would you find the students from.
Me personally ( I know I don't have a realistic idea of what it's like to be an airline owner) I would take students from the top intergrated flight schools.
On the other hand I might want to save money and want new applicants to be type rated saving millions. This means I would advertise on something like ppjn. What do you reckon airlines would do?
Is it true that some airlines only want their type ratings for their pilots.
Cheers
Mooneyboy
One question to people like Butler, WWW and Zcar. If you were an airline and you wanted fifty pilots of F/O type ab intio. Where would you find the students from.
Me personally ( I know I don't have a realistic idea of what it's like to be an airline owner) I would take students from the top intergrated flight schools.
On the other hand I might want to save money and want new applicants to be type rated saving millions. This means I would advertise on something like ppjn. What do you reckon airlines would do?
Is it true that some airlines only want their type ratings for their pilots.
Cheers
Mooneyboy
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Mooney Boy, here are some of my thoughts to the points you raise:-
1. Regarding EPTA, I did my CPL/IR/MCC and found overall the standard of tuition was very good. I did have some problems with aircraft serviceability, but the fact is GA aircraft do get pretty frail in their old age (actually not just GA aircraft, but that’s another story!). EPTA changed their maintenance organisation whilst I was there (1st half of ’03) and things did improve significantly. I can’t really comment on the groundschool other than Keith Williams is very experienced in this area and the exam results (at least for the self funded guys
) were very good.
Now flying for an airline, even with hindsight my MCC course was very professionally run and well thought out. Don’t get too excited about what sort of sim an MCC is run on. You are there to learn multi-crew skills, not to get a type rating for that specific type. Even if you do an MCC and JOC on lets say a B737, if you do land a job on a B737, you will have to do a full type rating anyway - i.e. no advantage to anybody.
You will need to let your hair down regularly during your flight training and Bournemouth provides plenty of places to do so. Don’t be ashamed to do so. Flight training is stressful!
2. Airlines don’t approach flight schools asking for 50 perspective F/Os - fact. More likely they will firstly look through the big pile of CVs they have accumulated for applicants that fit the profile they’re looking for – ideally type rated guys with decent experience on type. They might also place an advert in Flight International, and perhaps approach an agency like Parc if they need crews really quickly.
3. ‘top intergrated flight schools’ teach students to fly light aircraft and pass through the CAA hoops, none of them is a TRTO (Type Rating Training Organisation) or can offer line training – fact. Airlines know this and on the whole couldn’t give two hoots about where you trained. They will be interested in how you trained, i.e. just what motivated this guy to keep going when things got tough, that sort of thing.
4. Airlines must ensure their crews follow their particular procedures, which do vary very significantly between airlines – therefore even newly recruited pilots with many thousands of hours on type will need further training. That’s why airlines don't get wildly excited if you buy somebody elses 'off the shelf' type rating. If in addition to this you have significant line flying experience, they might get more interested, because then you are a much better bet to make the required standard.
Hope this helps. Good luck, GS.
1. Regarding EPTA, I did my CPL/IR/MCC and found overall the standard of tuition was very good. I did have some problems with aircraft serviceability, but the fact is GA aircraft do get pretty frail in their old age (actually not just GA aircraft, but that’s another story!). EPTA changed their maintenance organisation whilst I was there (1st half of ’03) and things did improve significantly. I can’t really comment on the groundschool other than Keith Williams is very experienced in this area and the exam results (at least for the self funded guys
) were very good.Now flying for an airline, even with hindsight my MCC course was very professionally run and well thought out. Don’t get too excited about what sort of sim an MCC is run on. You are there to learn multi-crew skills, not to get a type rating for that specific type. Even if you do an MCC and JOC on lets say a B737, if you do land a job on a B737, you will have to do a full type rating anyway - i.e. no advantage to anybody.
You will need to let your hair down regularly during your flight training and Bournemouth provides plenty of places to do so. Don’t be ashamed to do so. Flight training is stressful!
2. Airlines don’t approach flight schools asking for 50 perspective F/Os - fact. More likely they will firstly look through the big pile of CVs they have accumulated for applicants that fit the profile they’re looking for – ideally type rated guys with decent experience on type. They might also place an advert in Flight International, and perhaps approach an agency like Parc if they need crews really quickly.
3. ‘top intergrated flight schools’ teach students to fly light aircraft and pass through the CAA hoops, none of them is a TRTO (Type Rating Training Organisation) or can offer line training – fact. Airlines know this and on the whole couldn’t give two hoots about where you trained. They will be interested in how you trained, i.e. just what motivated this guy to keep going when things got tough, that sort of thing.
4. Airlines must ensure their crews follow their particular procedures, which do vary very significantly between airlines – therefore even newly recruited pilots with many thousands of hours on type will need further training. That’s why airlines don't get wildly excited if you buy somebody elses 'off the shelf' type rating. If in addition to this you have significant line flying experience, they might get more interested, because then you are a much better bet to make the required standard.
Hope this helps. Good luck, GS.
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zcar if you don't like our style of moderating, you are free to take your browser elsewhere!
Between WWW and I, we have a great deal of experience of this industry, covering the RAF (from UAS to OCU instructor), small and large flight schools, the process of finding jobs ourselves, and interviewing and assessing other people for those jobs, small and large (and in between) airlines, and a great many other areas of interest to wannabes. We keep ourselves up to date with what's going on through personal contacts in all areas of the industry and careful reading of the industry press. Our advice is borne of long, hard-won experience (WWW has, I believe, around 4500 hours, I have around 12,000).
We have spent years reading the trials, tribulations, problems and questions of the wannabe community, and there are very few topics that we haven't seen before. The vast majority of our readership are intelligent, determined, resourceful, and full of initiative. However, a small minority are none of these things. Some are just lazy. We have no need to indulge the lazy - the industry doesn't want that kind of individual, and there are far too many wannabes per available job. As no-one is paying us to be nice to our readership, and we have no ties to any commercial organisation that can influence wannabes, we feel free to say exactly what we think. The readership can take or leave what we say, but we think you'll find that the majority of our wannabes are happy with both the advice they get and the style it's presented in.
Scroggs
Between WWW and I, we have a great deal of experience of this industry, covering the RAF (from UAS to OCU instructor), small and large flight schools, the process of finding jobs ourselves, and interviewing and assessing other people for those jobs, small and large (and in between) airlines, and a great many other areas of interest to wannabes. We keep ourselves up to date with what's going on through personal contacts in all areas of the industry and careful reading of the industry press. Our advice is borne of long, hard-won experience (WWW has, I believe, around 4500 hours, I have around 12,000).
We have spent years reading the trials, tribulations, problems and questions of the wannabe community, and there are very few topics that we haven't seen before. The vast majority of our readership are intelligent, determined, resourceful, and full of initiative. However, a small minority are none of these things. Some are just lazy. We have no need to indulge the lazy - the industry doesn't want that kind of individual, and there are far too many wannabes per available job. As no-one is paying us to be nice to our readership, and we have no ties to any commercial organisation that can influence wannabes, we feel free to say exactly what we think. The readership can take or leave what we say, but we think you'll find that the majority of our wannabes are happy with both the advice they get and the style it's presented in.
Scroggs
Thanks to Gin Slinger for the time you've taken to answer my previous question. Your views and many others have convinced me that EPTA is indeed a very good flight school, I will definately be visiting them and taking a look. Would the oponion of EPTA been one the best modular schools in the UK be far from the truth? I also acknowledge your advice to have fun a bit on the course, I think the phrase work, rest and play applies obviously in correct proportions. Also I have taken on board your advice concerning airlines and recruitment.
A question to everyone:
What factors would excite the airlines in a potential F/O. ie what would be the perfect low hour applicant?
Mooneyboy
A question to everyone:
What factors would excite the airlines in a potential F/O. ie what would be the perfect low hour applicant?
Mooneyboy
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Hi Mooneyboy
What can you do to make yourself stand out from the crowd is always a difficult one to answer. All the airlines look for the perfect first officer, but the criteria change depending on who is doing the selecting. Unfortunately although the selection process for the interview is relatively straight forward, CPL/IR class one medical, couple of hundred hours etc, ie can you do the job? After that it becomes more personal in that you have to sit in front of one or more interviewers and convince them that you are the man for the job, this can come down to their personal taste and preferences and this is where the integrated verses modular route comes in to play. Say you get through that then its one to one with the person doing your sim check ride and their personal preferences can also come into play. Now all this personal stuff should not happen and if you ask around it will be denied, but we are all human and the “there was something about that one I did not like” can come into it.
As to what you can do, a degree in a suitable subject helps, showing an actual interest in aviation so what books do you read do not say flight international try Richard Bach or the like as an answer, a second or third language is very useful, and aviation related job experience can swing it for you.
Good luck with your training, go to at least three schools before parting with any cash and talk to the students away from any staff to get the full story about the school and beware of advice that can not be backed up by experience.
What can you do to make yourself stand out from the crowd is always a difficult one to answer. All the airlines look for the perfect first officer, but the criteria change depending on who is doing the selecting. Unfortunately although the selection process for the interview is relatively straight forward, CPL/IR class one medical, couple of hundred hours etc, ie can you do the job? After that it becomes more personal in that you have to sit in front of one or more interviewers and convince them that you are the man for the job, this can come down to their personal taste and preferences and this is where the integrated verses modular route comes in to play. Say you get through that then its one to one with the person doing your sim check ride and their personal preferences can also come into play. Now all this personal stuff should not happen and if you ask around it will be denied, but we are all human and the “there was something about that one I did not like” can come into it.
As to what you can do, a degree in a suitable subject helps, showing an actual interest in aviation so what books do you read do not say flight international try Richard Bach or the like as an answer, a second or third language is very useful, and aviation related job experience can swing it for you.
Good luck with your training, go to at least three schools before parting with any cash and talk to the students away from any staff to get the full story about the school and beware of advice that can not be backed up by experience.
Thanks for the advice Andy Hogg. I acknowledge that a factor in getting an airline job will depend on who is in the selection panel. As for the sim ride I hope my skills will improve through training. I have already tried reading a lot more into aviation, I recently read Neville Duke's autobiograhy which gives a good insight into how aircraft behave near the sound barrier. As for language I know a bit of German and Italian. I can also say I've done the less glamouress jobs such as 8 hour shifts solid washing up in a local pub. The next thing is to choose the right flight school which might be near you.
Thanks for the tips.
Mooneyboy
Thanks for the tips.
Mooneyboy
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In reply to your question Bournemouth is a great place to stay.
There is alot of reasonably priced accomodation. About £50-£80 a week. I stayed in a lovely little guest house . I paid £75 a week but got bed, breakfast, packed lunch to take to school and a hot evening meal when I got back in. You can't grumble at that ...Right???
epta will provide you with an accomodation list, they have alot of contacts in the area who know that we are pilots under training and therefore offer low cost, high quality accomodation.
I really hope that you choose to go to epta but as mentioned before have a good look around as its a big investment and you want to make sure that you are choosing the right school for you.
If you want that number for the guest house i was in just let me know
Captain Trigger
There is alot of reasonably priced accomodation. About £50-£80 a week. I stayed in a lovely little guest house . I paid £75 a week but got bed, breakfast, packed lunch to take to school and a hot evening meal when I got back in. You can't grumble at that ...Right???
epta will provide you with an accomodation list, they have alot of contacts in the area who know that we are pilots under training and therefore offer low cost, high quality accomodation.
I really hope that you choose to go to epta but as mentioned before have a good look around as its a big investment and you want to make sure that you are choosing the right school for you.
If you want that number for the guest house i was in just let me know
Captain Trigger
Captaintrigger.
Thanks for the infomation regarding the accomodation. Have to admit the already prepared food by your accomodation would seem very tempting.
Did go down to bournemouth the other day and seemed a nice place but it wasn't to visit EPTA. It was to visit CTC which didn't go to well, got no one else to blame apart from myself. This means I will be visiting flight schools in the next coming weeks since one path has been closed.
Is there much difference between the Cabair at Cranfield and the one at Bournemouth? This is concerning the modular route.
Thanks for the reply
Mooneyboy
Thanks for the infomation regarding the accomodation. Have to admit the already prepared food by your accomodation would seem very tempting.
Did go down to bournemouth the other day and seemed a nice place but it wasn't to visit EPTA. It was to visit CTC which didn't go to well, got no one else to blame apart from myself. This means I will be visiting flight schools in the next coming weeks since one path has been closed.
Is there much difference between the Cabair at Cranfield and the one at Bournemouth? This is concerning the modular route.
Thanks for the reply
Mooneyboy
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I have got to be honest I dont know about cranfield but have heard that epta is alot better. Epta doesn't have any integrated students which is a big plus as all students are treated the same. I have heard that some schools who have integrated and modular students are alot nicer to integrated students. For instance if there was an integrated student who was about to go flying and the plane went tech then they would take your plane off you and give it to them.
Bournemouth is a great place to train . For instance one of the IR routes is Alderney which is a lovely place to fly too......not that you see much of it behind those screens anyway.
Anyway make sure that you pay them a visit mate.
Take care
CT
Bournemouth is a great place to train . For instance one of the IR routes is Alderney which is a lovely place to fly too......not that you see much of it behind those screens anyway.
Anyway make sure that you pay them a visit mate.
Take care
CT
I do understand that there can be friction between modular and intergrated students, I have heard this from my previous flying instrustors ( one may have the moderater of this section). Alderney is a nice place to go especially for a cross country. Don't worry I will be definately be paying EPTA a visit in the very near future.
Best regards.
Mooneyboy
Best regards.
Mooneyboy
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Scroggs
Good answer! A total contrast to the style of your early comment, presumably nothing to do with my criticism, but a good answer nonetheless. Cheers for the debate, I think I have been a worthy adversary!
Good answer! A total contrast to the style of your early comment, presumably nothing to do with my criticism, but a good answer nonetheless. Cheers for the debate, I think I have been a worthy adversary!
