Hour Building (Australia)
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Yep, you're right on that one. CAA Lasors states that if you are the holder of an ICAO PPL(A) then only 50% of your time may be used towards the CPL and in addition to this it is at the descretion of the FTO. Might be worth doing that conversion after all eh? I would definitely seek some advice whilst your over there to figure out your best option. Try emailing some of the flight schools in the UK that you intend to do the training with, they'll be able to guide you to the right decision.
All the best,
TB.
All the best,
TB.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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TubularBells
Am in same position, with Oz PPL and am about to study for ATPL while hours building for post 100 hrs JAA PPL / CPL / IR etc...
Can you point me in the right direction in the CAA Lasors where it talks about the 50% credit for ICAO hours.... I've had a look and can't find it.
Certainly the flight schools I've approached in the UK haven't been aware of this quirk.
Regards,
esvdx
Can you point me in the right direction in the CAA Lasors where it talks about the 50% credit for ICAO hours.... I've had a look and can't find it.
Certainly the flight schools I've approached in the UK haven't been aware of this quirk.
Regards,
esvdx
Join Date: Mar 2003
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PLEASE post what you guys find out about this scary 50% thing!! If its up to the discretion of the FTO thats seems silly - they would naturally want you to have to do as many hours with them as possible.
There's a few of us it seems who are in the same boat.
Thanks very much
There's a few of us it seems who are in the same boat.
Thanks very much
Join Date: Feb 2003
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The 50% mentioned is for people doing an INTEGRATED course. For a modular course its a full credit given for the hours in your logbook.
Here is the Lasors online:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
When it loads, go to page 144, or page 4 of section D. You can read it for yourself.
Here is the Lasors online:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
When it loads, go to page 144, or page 4 of section D. You can read it for yourself.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Basic question...
Sorry but I've heard integrated and modular terms before but am not sure what they mean.
My intentions are hopefully to go back to Ireland or UK with 200 hrs, ICAO PPL, night and cross country stuff done. Then do JAR CPL exams and skills test, ME/IR and ATPL ground school etc hopefully pretty quickly.
So is this modular or integrated? Sounds silly but just need to know.
My intentions are hopefully to go back to Ireland or UK with 200 hrs, ICAO PPL, night and cross country stuff done. Then do JAR CPL exams and skills test, ME/IR and ATPL ground school etc hopefully pretty quickly.
So is this modular or integrated? Sounds silly but just need to know.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Hi Guys
Bloody hell youve just scared the hell out of me with this 50% of hours counting. Im a little bit confused here so if someone could clear this up for me it would be very much appreciated.
Ive just finished my JAA PPL here in Johannesburg and have nearly 50 hrs P1. I will be returning to Ireland in the near future to start my ATP's and my CPL. I would like to come back here when Ive got the exams out of the way to fininsh my hour building. If I do this does this mean that only 50% of my hours will count. That doesnt make any sense........
Thanks BL.
Bloody hell youve just scared the hell out of me with this 50% of hours counting. Im a little bit confused here so if someone could clear this up for me it would be very much appreciated.
Ive just finished my JAA PPL here in Johannesburg and have nearly 50 hrs P1. I will be returning to Ireland in the near future to start my ATP's and my CPL. I would like to come back here when Ive got the exams out of the way to fininsh my hour building. If I do this does this mean that only 50% of my hours will count. That doesnt make any sense........
Thanks BL.
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Don't worry, it's not a problem. As NACGS has said, it's only if you are doing a Integrated course that this would become a problem and even then, it wouldn't matter if you had a JAA PPL, hours allowed to count towards your integrated course would be at the disgression of the school.
Just to clarify - Integrated course is zero (i.e. no PPL) to IR with one provider only. I.e I go to a school knowing nothing about flying, pay them £80,000 (this is only an approximation!) and then get regurgitated out the other side as a qualified pilot. Therefore, if you completed a PPL before completing an integrated course, the school would need to evaluate your training and assess what part of the PPL you had already completed could count towards your training.
Modular Course - I do the training in 'modules' with either the same shool if I so choose, or completing different modules with different schools. This is the route you have chosen by completing your PPL on your own. This way all hours count regardless.
Cheers,
TB.
Just to clarify - Integrated course is zero (i.e. no PPL) to IR with one provider only. I.e I go to a school knowing nothing about flying, pay them £80,000 (this is only an approximation!) and then get regurgitated out the other side as a qualified pilot. Therefore, if you completed a PPL before completing an integrated course, the school would need to evaluate your training and assess what part of the PPL you had already completed could count towards your training.
Modular Course - I do the training in 'modules' with either the same shool if I so choose, or completing different modules with different schools. This is the route you have chosen by completing your PPL on your own. This way all hours count regardless.
Cheers,
TB.
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Tubular ....Thanks for clarifying the integrated vs modular thing.
Still, why would they only count 50% of your hours on an ICAO PPL when you do an integrated course. Surely you would not go for an integrated (zero to ATPL) if you had an ICAO PPL in the first place?? Surely you would go for the modular? Like myself.
Chr1st this flying thing is complicated!! I'm writing this very pis$$ed and can baelkry speklk correctly. Hope I make some sense.
I'll go the modular and hope all my hours will count.
I love you all. Keep flying, its the most amazing experience in the world isnt it?
Still, why would they only count 50% of your hours on an ICAO PPL when you do an integrated course. Surely you would not go for an integrated (zero to ATPL) if you had an ICAO PPL in the first place?? Surely you would go for the modular? Like myself.
Chr1st this flying thing is complicated!! I'm writing this very pis$$ed and can baelkry speklk correctly. Hope I make some sense.
I'll go the modular and hope all my hours will count.
I love you all. Keep flying, its the most amazing experience in the world isnt it?
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Hi
They only count 50% of the hours because they want to get all the money they can off you. Im sure there is a more reasonable explaination but Im sure its part of the reason.
Ciao BL
They only count 50% of the hours because they want to get all the money they can off you. Im sure there is a more reasonable explaination but Im sure its part of the reason.
Ciao BL
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Crikey Irishwingz, wasn't it only 9pm over in Oz when you posted that? 
You must have started early!
Generally, those who are going to go with the integrated route, wouldn't do a PPL, but then even if they did, they probably wouldn't need to worry as they've got enough money to sink a battleship anyway!
Birdlady, as far as the need for more money, surprisingly enough, the regulations seem to be imposed by the CAA. They state in LASORS:
"The holder of a PPL(A) issued in accordance with
ICAO Annex 1 may, at the discretion of the FTO, be
credited with 50% of the aeroplane (including
TMG) hours flown prior to the course up to a credit
of 40 hours flying experience, or 45 hours if an
aeroplane night qualification/rating has been.
obtained of which, up to 20 hours may be dual
instruction. Any credit given is subject to
confirmation by the FTO at the time of application."
So even if the FTO did want to give you all your hours before you start your integrated course, they wouldn't be allowed to anyway!
I start my ATPL groundschool a week on Tuesday. Ooooo, I can't wait. Second rung...Allay ooopp!
Good luck with the on-going training!
TB.
You must have started early! Generally, those who are going to go with the integrated route, wouldn't do a PPL, but then even if they did, they probably wouldn't need to worry as they've got enough money to sink a battleship anyway!
Birdlady, as far as the need for more money, surprisingly enough, the regulations seem to be imposed by the CAA. They state in LASORS:
"The holder of a PPL(A) issued in accordance with
ICAO Annex 1 may, at the discretion of the FTO, be
credited with 50% of the aeroplane (including
TMG) hours flown prior to the course up to a credit
of 40 hours flying experience, or 45 hours if an
aeroplane night qualification/rating has been.
obtained of which, up to 20 hours may be dual
instruction. Any credit given is subject to
confirmation by the FTO at the time of application."
So even if the FTO did want to give you all your hours before you start your integrated course, they wouldn't be allowed to anyway!
I start my ATPL groundschool a week on Tuesday. Ooooo, I can't wait. Second rung...Allay ooopp!
Good luck with the on-going training!
TB.
There's a fundamental difference in concept between integrated type courses & the modular method. They are both intended to end up with pilots who meet at least the minimum standard for the licence however one allows pretty much any flying experience to count towards the licence and the other only credits specific training time.
In effect the integrated is considered to be more efficient at getting the student to the required standard. This is recognised by the reduced number of hours needed to qualify due to the focused training regime. This is NOT the same as saying that it will be cheaper! There is a whole infrastructure required to support this dedicated training system that must be paid for.
Bear in mind that it's the *whole* of any given course that is assessed as providing the learning environment to achieve the required standard. That's why the experience accepted from 'drop ins' from elsewhere is limited.
On the other hand, the modular system recognises that an entire training course from start to end is not the only way to end up as a competent newly qualified commercial pilot. However, because the mix of experience gained via modular is not necessarily entirely relevent to the CPL requirements, there is a larger number of hours specified to increase the pilot's exposure to skill improving situations.
Modular often works out cheaper in the long run since the student can mix & match to take advantage of cheaper rates at different establishments, even though there is additional flight time needed.
In effect the integrated is considered to be more efficient at getting the student to the required standard. This is recognised by the reduced number of hours needed to qualify due to the focused training regime. This is NOT the same as saying that it will be cheaper! There is a whole infrastructure required to support this dedicated training system that must be paid for.
Bear in mind that it's the *whole* of any given course that is assessed as providing the learning environment to achieve the required standard. That's why the experience accepted from 'drop ins' from elsewhere is limited.
On the other hand, the modular system recognises that an entire training course from start to end is not the only way to end up as a competent newly qualified commercial pilot. However, because the mix of experience gained via modular is not necessarily entirely relevent to the CPL requirements, there is a larger number of hours specified to increase the pilot's exposure to skill improving situations.
Modular often works out cheaper in the long run since the student can mix & match to take advantage of cheaper rates at different establishments, even though there is additional flight time needed.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 16th Sep 2016 at 04:50.
The mis-information on this 50% thing is getting a bit out of hand. It's nothing whatever to do with an ICAO PPL or overseas hour-building but relates to any previous experience, wherever gained. Neither is it anything to do with the CAA - it's a JAA requirement for all integrated courses (ATPL, CPL/IR and CPL). The relevant bit of JAR-FCL 1 reads -
In the case of a PPL(A) entrant, 50% of the aeroplane hours flown by the entrant prior to the course may be credited towards the required flight instruction (JAR-FCL 1.165(a)(1) and Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.165(a)(1), paragraph 13) up to a credit of 40 hours flying experience or 45 hours if an aeroplane night flying qualification has been obtained, of which up to 20 hours may be dual instruction. This credit for the hours flown shall be at the discretion of the FTO and entered into the applicant’s training record.
Since an integrated ATPL course can have as little as 140 hours in the aeroplane, of which 100 hours must be solo/SPIC, it makes sense to limit the amount of previous experience that can be credited. In any case, the integrated courses are intended to be for people with little or no previous experience - If you already have a PPL, it makes much more sense financially to complete a structured modular course, which would also probably be quicker.
Sorry to post this info twice, Scroggs, but I didn't want it propagating any further.
In the case of a PPL(A) entrant, 50% of the aeroplane hours flown by the entrant prior to the course may be credited towards the required flight instruction (JAR-FCL 1.165(a)(1) and Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.165(a)(1), paragraph 13) up to a credit of 40 hours flying experience or 45 hours if an aeroplane night flying qualification has been obtained, of which up to 20 hours may be dual instruction. This credit for the hours flown shall be at the discretion of the FTO and entered into the applicant’s training record.
Since an integrated ATPL course can have as little as 140 hours in the aeroplane, of which 100 hours must be solo/SPIC, it makes sense to limit the amount of previous experience that can be credited. In any case, the integrated courses are intended to be for people with little or no previous experience - If you already have a PPL, it makes much more sense financially to complete a structured modular course, which would also probably be quicker.
Sorry to post this info twice, Scroggs, but I didn't want it propagating any further.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Did I say CAA?! Duh! I should have seen that one!
I guess I should just leave the advice to the experts! I'll just go back to asking lots of questions. Much easier!
I'll just get my coat shall I?
I guess I should just leave the advice to the experts! I'll just go back to asking lots of questions. Much easier!
I'll just get my coat shall I?
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I undertook hours building in Oz prior to commencing my CPL back in the UK 18 months ago. There was no problem confirming my hours prior to starting the CPL or for license issue up at the CAA. I recommend getting your log book signed by the flying school and keep their contact details on your return should the CAA want further info.
You do have to jump through some hoops to get your UK PPL validated for use out in Oz and you need an ID card for airside access at most fields (Do a search here on PPRuNe for more info - it has changed since I did it!).
I flew out of Melbourne, but visited Bankstown a couple of times, a nice busy airfield to get some experience in, with quite a lot of interesting controlled airspace around.
Good luck with your hours building.
esvdx
You do have to jump through some hoops to get your UK PPL validated for use out in Oz and you need an ID card for airside access at most fields (Do a search here on PPRuNe for more info - it has changed since I did it!).
I flew out of Melbourne, but visited Bankstown a couple of times, a nice busy airfield to get some experience in, with quite a lot of interesting controlled airspace around.
Good luck with your hours building.
esvdx
