Training for the Aged (38)
going boldly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training for the Aged (38)
I am 38 (which equates to about 100yrs in piloting terms) and I want to get a commercial pilot licence and work commercially. Airline pilot seems to be a little beyond those of my years, but I think I would enjoy working as a courier or a flight instructor.
My circumstances dictate that I must take an integrated course.
There are a number of training organisations, eg Oxford Aviation and EFT. I wonder if you could enlighten me with your experiences of both.
There is a vast difference in the fees... is this reflected in the quality of the course and the employment prospects?
At my age, are there any employment prospects???
Dare I ask what sort of remuneration to expect?
(Yes, I will get a class 1 medical first.)
My circumstances dictate that I must take an integrated course.
There are a number of training organisations, eg Oxford Aviation and EFT. I wonder if you could enlighten me with your experiences of both.
There is a vast difference in the fees... is this reflected in the quality of the course and the employment prospects?
At my age, are there any employment prospects???
Dare I ask what sort of remuneration to expect?
(Yes, I will get a class 1 medical first.)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Henley on Thames
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting post Jd10k!! I shall be watching this with interest.
I am 29 and had a shot some years ago, getting as far as PPL before running out of financial options due to death in the family, etc.
I am now seriously considering having another shot at getting into the world of commercial aviation, as I have yet to find any other job which holds any real interest. I had thought of going the Cargo or bizjet route.
A couple of questions to add to the above:
What are the minimum qualifications I would need to achieve in order to start looking for work in commercial aviation? Would a CPL/IR/Multi count for a hill of beans?
What sort of cost am I looking at from my current (lapsed PPL)?
I know this may all sound a little vague, but look forward to some illuminating responses!
jd, hope you don't mind me coat-tailing your post...
I am 29 and had a shot some years ago, getting as far as PPL before running out of financial options due to death in the family, etc.
I am now seriously considering having another shot at getting into the world of commercial aviation, as I have yet to find any other job which holds any real interest. I had thought of going the Cargo or bizjet route.
A couple of questions to add to the above:
What are the minimum qualifications I would need to achieve in order to start looking for work in commercial aviation? Would a CPL/IR/Multi count for a hill of beans?
What sort of cost am I looking at from my current (lapsed PPL)?
I know this may all sound a little vague, but look forward to some illuminating responses!
jd, hope you don't mind me coat-tailing your post...
going boldly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please coat-tail... It is all interesting to me.
If it possible, get your old PPL renovated, as the new ones (JAA) expire.
Just another thought: Do airlines prefer UK or US training? (or don't they care?)
JD
If it possible, get your old PPL renovated, as the new ones (JAA) expire.
Just another thought: Do airlines prefer UK or US training? (or don't they care?)
JD
Last edited by jd10k; 21st May 2004 at 23:23.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems to me that the CAA test all pilots before the issuance of a licence. Therefore it is the CAA that set the ultimate Standard not the schools.
You need to have the licence, be in the right place at the right time AND have the personality the company is looking for.
A bit of luck never hurt iether.
You need to have the licence, be in the right place at the right time AND have the personality the company is looking for.
A bit of luck never hurt iether.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Midlands
Age: 50
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jd10k,
just my thoughts and I stand by to be corrected by others if needs be.
Typically jet airlines try to achieve stability in their crewing and retain staff for as long as possible. There is no bar to you getting an airline post, but you will have a fight on your hands to beat the younger potentially more experienced pilots into that right hand seat.
However, some setups do prefer the more mature pilots as they are less likely to jump ship. Mature pilots traditionally have been more inclined to stay put due to families/ home life and tend to be favoured by air taxi operators and some of the smaller turboprop operators. When you only have a few pilots, the last thing you need is a high staff turnover. Again, being a more mature flying instructor says "I'm here to stay".
Remuneration for flying instructors teaching PPL is very poor, but it does improve once you expand your experience and teach CPL, Multi and IR. Typically they are paid per flying hour (about £10 I believe) and most also get a small retainer/ attendance fee for each day they work, a very limited few are paid a salary. They are still expected to go in even if the weather is clearly too poor for flying.
Your stumbling block for air taxi is that you need 700 hours before taking passengers on single pilot operations. Freight is a different matter, but don't forget that there are jobs out there doing banner towing, night freight, aerial photography, glider towing and so on.
Regards
Obs cop
just my thoughts and I stand by to be corrected by others if needs be.
Typically jet airlines try to achieve stability in their crewing and retain staff for as long as possible. There is no bar to you getting an airline post, but you will have a fight on your hands to beat the younger potentially more experienced pilots into that right hand seat.
However, some setups do prefer the more mature pilots as they are less likely to jump ship. Mature pilots traditionally have been more inclined to stay put due to families/ home life and tend to be favoured by air taxi operators and some of the smaller turboprop operators. When you only have a few pilots, the last thing you need is a high staff turnover. Again, being a more mature flying instructor says "I'm here to stay".
Remuneration for flying instructors teaching PPL is very poor, but it does improve once you expand your experience and teach CPL, Multi and IR. Typically they are paid per flying hour (about £10 I believe) and most also get a small retainer/ attendance fee for each day they work, a very limited few are paid a salary. They are still expected to go in even if the weather is clearly too poor for flying.
Your stumbling block for air taxi is that you need 700 hours before taking passengers on single pilot operations. Freight is a different matter, but don't forget that there are jobs out there doing banner towing, night freight, aerial photography, glider towing and so on.
Regards
Obs cop
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Henley on Thames
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here I go again jd!! Just cosh me on the back of the head if I get in your way...
Thanks for your responses guys. Obs cop, what are you referring to when you say that frieght is a different story?
Apologies if I am displaying gross ignorance, but what would be a reasonable requirement for getting into a freight operation?
I am also still very interested in funding? Anybody got any ideas as to the cost of getting to a level where, along with some luck, there would be a reasonable possibility of getting a job? I have a lapsed SA PPL, so would all but be starting from new.
Thanks again,
Beast
Thanks for your responses guys. Obs cop, what are you referring to when you say that frieght is a different story?
Apologies if I am displaying gross ignorance, but what would be a reasonable requirement for getting into a freight operation?
I am also still very interested in funding? Anybody got any ideas as to the cost of getting to a level where, along with some luck, there would be a reasonable possibility of getting a job? I have a lapsed SA PPL, so would all but be starting from new.
Thanks again,
Beast
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Midlands
Age: 50
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beast,
Freight is a very vast and varied operation with everything from single pilot short haul ops to multicrew long haul international. It is far less glamorous than passenger flying and a huge percentage of freight operations take place at night. The requirements can technically be as low as just a CPL, but of course then you cannot fly in controlled airspace and are of no use to a potential employer.
Multi crew operations obviously need fATPL, but I do not know what the single pilot requirements are, I susoect that may well depend on the operator's insurance. The freightdogs forum would probably be able to offer more information.
Regards
Obscop
Freight is a very vast and varied operation with everything from single pilot short haul ops to multicrew long haul international. It is far less glamorous than passenger flying and a huge percentage of freight operations take place at night. The requirements can technically be as low as just a CPL, but of course then you cannot fly in controlled airspace and are of no use to a potential employer.
Multi crew operations obviously need fATPL, but I do not know what the single pilot requirements are, I susoect that may well depend on the operator's insurance. The freightdogs forum would probably be able to offer more information.
Regards
Obscop
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: europe
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jd 10 k
This is not meant to influence in any way.
But I do know of a chap who started flying at 34 and was a first officer by the time he was 37 with a passeneger airline flying airbus.He would now be about 44.The one advantage he had was that he had know shortage of money as his previous career left him financially very sound.If you have know previous experience.Then it is no harm to gain a ppl licence.When I started toying with the idea of flying training none of the commercial pilots I know, who are experienced pilots corporate and airline and cargo could not advocate to me taking on a full commercial course intergrated or modular.They said get your ppl first then figure out what to do after.I can only advise on the modular route but if you take it one step at a time your better off in my opinion aviation training is not necesserily full of itegrity as toy are dealing with people and huge egos who want money at the end of the day and no offence to any instructors out there but every barrel has a few bad apples and as long a the majority of the money is in your pocket you know your doing well.If you cough up money to fast, when the arguments start an no doubt every student has his day then you have no leverage If you have payed up. I have a file I built up over time of brochures when I was shopping around and their is a lot of honest john car sales around the training industry.None of the flying schools I have dealt with have been totally upfront.
Download Jar fcl from the official jaa website.
This is not meant to influence in any way.
But I do know of a chap who started flying at 34 and was a first officer by the time he was 37 with a passeneger airline flying airbus.He would now be about 44.The one advantage he had was that he had know shortage of money as his previous career left him financially very sound.If you have know previous experience.Then it is no harm to gain a ppl licence.When I started toying with the idea of flying training none of the commercial pilots I know, who are experienced pilots corporate and airline and cargo could not advocate to me taking on a full commercial course intergrated or modular.They said get your ppl first then figure out what to do after.I can only advise on the modular route but if you take it one step at a time your better off in my opinion aviation training is not necesserily full of itegrity as toy are dealing with people and huge egos who want money at the end of the day and no offence to any instructors out there but every barrel has a few bad apples and as long a the majority of the money is in your pocket you know your doing well.If you cough up money to fast, when the arguments start an no doubt every student has his day then you have no leverage If you have payed up. I have a file I built up over time of brochures when I was shopping around and their is a lot of honest john car sales around the training industry.None of the flying schools I have dealt with have been totally upfront.
Download Jar fcl from the official jaa website.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want to know merits and costs of integrated v modular I suggest you stick those terms in the Proon search engine - its a regular topic and you will see loads of replies / arguments for and against from people more in the know than me "fATPL Modular self improver" thread is short and contains a succinct description of both routes - don't know how to link - sorry.
but (what i remember from other peoples posts) Integrated costs £60k~ish and if you are careful, train overseas modular can be as low as £35K.
Beast29 sorry to be the bearer of bad news but (In my opinion) I don't think your PPL will save you much. If I remember rightly a PPL is 40 odd hours (min) and depending how rusty you are it could take half that to get you up to speed again. Those 20-30 hours 'saved' would cost approx US$80 an hour (depending where you went to train - you don't need a UK PPL to get a JAA CPL - I haven't). Don't get me wrong I would rather have that money than not, but it pales into insignificance when IR/Multi training is costing £6 per minute at the end of your course
"fATPL Modular self improver" thread is short and contains a succinct description of both routes - don't know how to link - sorry.but (what i remember from other peoples posts) Integrated costs £60k~ish and if you are careful, train overseas modular can be as low as £35K.
Beast29 sorry to be the bearer of bad news but (In my opinion) I don't think your PPL will save you much. If I remember rightly a PPL is 40 odd hours (min) and depending how rusty you are it could take half that to get you up to speed again. Those 20-30 hours 'saved' would cost approx US$80 an hour (depending where you went to train - you don't need a UK PPL to get a JAA CPL - I haven't). Don't get me wrong I would rather have that money than not, but it pales into insignificance when IR/Multi training is costing £6 per minute at the end of your course
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Not so far away anymore
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training for the Aged (38)
Read this with interest as at 31 I have just got my PPL and also want to go the commercial route. My big snag (if you will excuse me also coat tailing!) is that having gained my PPL in New Zealand (where I am also planning on gaining my CPL and maybe even instructors rating), I understand that I will have to repeat a lot of the training to work in the UK (where I will be returning to live in a few years). Anyone got any advice on how much will be valid and where to find out more?
By the way, I applied for a cadetship with CTC McAlpine who sort out the EasyJet crowd and train them over here - they turned me down for being too old! Charming! (But worth a try!)
By the way, I applied for a cadetship with CTC McAlpine who sort out the EasyJet crowd and train them over here - they turned me down for being too old! Charming! (But worth a try!)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coat-tailing!!
Hi
Add me to the pile! This thread is of interest to me because I also got a PPL (52hrs to date) and now don't know what to do with it. I am 28 and haven't flown since November. So I could quite easily get back in the air and get current again, except that I am strapped for cash and could only afford to fly once a month. The big dilemma is whether to do that and aimlessly bumble on towards extra ratings, or give up for a few years and come back to it when I have saved some money and have a plan (maybe by 2030!!).
I've exhausted sponsorships and self-funded routes, having been dumped from a 100% airline scheme post 9/11.
Thoughts?
Will watch this keenly!
Good luck all.
Add me to the pile! This thread is of interest to me because I also got a PPL (52hrs to date) and now don't know what to do with it. I am 28 and haven't flown since November. So I could quite easily get back in the air and get current again, except that I am strapped for cash and could only afford to fly once a month. The big dilemma is whether to do that and aimlessly bumble on towards extra ratings, or give up for a few years and come back to it when I have saved some money and have a plan (maybe by 2030!!).
I've exhausted sponsorships and self-funded routes, having been dumped from a 100% airline scheme post 9/11.
Thoughts?
Will watch this keenly!
Good luck all.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NW
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi all,
Interesting replies, what you have to do is plan well in advance!!!!
Currently at CCAT doing Intergrated course, cost me around £50 big ones!!!! including accom.....I'm 31, got a few friends in the industry, according to them, all is not lost when you hit 30, infact one of my mates is now a captain on A320's, he only qualified at the age of 32!!!
From my mistakes, I would advise you to get planning as early as possible, if your involved in a relationship talk to the other half, because trust me it is very hard being away from home, its a huge strain....
Shop around and don't be afraid to ask for a discount, I paid all up front, most people would advise against this, but I saved myself £5k, and I've only got around 4 months to go before IRT so don't be shy. Most importantly, prepare yourself for the hardest 12-18months of your life, I hadn't studied since college days back when I was a weeeee whipper snapper, and beleive you me it was a huge shock the system having to learn how to revise etc....again.
So best of luck, and read up on your maths!!!!!!!
Endof
Interesting replies, what you have to do is plan well in advance!!!!
Currently at CCAT doing Intergrated course, cost me around £50 big ones!!!! including accom.....I'm 31, got a few friends in the industry, according to them, all is not lost when you hit 30, infact one of my mates is now a captain on A320's, he only qualified at the age of 32!!!
From my mistakes, I would advise you to get planning as early as possible, if your involved in a relationship talk to the other half, because trust me it is very hard being away from home, its a huge strain....
Shop around and don't be afraid to ask for a discount, I paid all up front, most people would advise against this, but I saved myself £5k, and I've only got around 4 months to go before IRT so don't be shy. Most importantly, prepare yourself for the hardest 12-18months of your life, I hadn't studied since college days back when I was a weeeee whipper snapper, and beleive you me it was a huge shock the system having to learn how to revise etc....again.
So best of luck, and read up on your maths!!!!!!!
Endof
going boldly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, the plans are under way. It all really depends on getting the loan now. With living costs, etc. I estimate that the course, entirely in America, will cost about £60,000. Of course. there are current problems with fuel prices... that could change a lot!
John
John
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Henley on Thames
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go for it!!
Just wanted to say good luck to you jd10k!! Hope the loan comes through and you can pursue the dream.
I am going to have to get my house in order first, but hopefully I can have a meaningful crack at it in future...
Will
I am going to have to get my house in order first, but hopefully I can have a meaningful crack at it in future...
Will
going boldly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest news... bank is happy to offer me the loan... if I can come up with some security.
Unfortunately, both grandmothers are dead. Not sure that the owners of my accommodation would appreciate me offering that!
Mmmmmm.... so near, but yet so far
John
Unfortunately, both grandmothers are dead. Not sure that the owners of my accommodation would appreciate me offering that!
Mmmmmm.... so near, but yet so far
John
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kilmacolm
Age: 47
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi John,
It seems to me that you are looking to go either the integrated route or a full time modular route.
Would you mind me asking why?
As you require security for the HSBC bank loan, have you thought about doing the modular route one step at a time as and when you can afford the courses?
For example, save up and pay for your PPL. Then once you have your PPL you can start your ATPL Ground School via Distance Learning (around the £2000 mark excluding CAA fees).
Whilst you're studying for the exams you could be putting money away to pay for an hour building stint over in the USA (100 hours at around $70 an hour for a C152 would be $7000 / £4000 in the States).
Once you have the PPL with 150 hours and ATPL Exams passed you'll be eligible to start your CPL and IR courses. This is were it gets expensive but you can probably get away with both courses for 15K-20K - a lot more attainable in terms of bank loans than 60K would be!
You'll have the same license and it'll only take two to three years and at the same time you'll be working fulltime, thus being able to support yourself all the way through the courses. You may just have to have a couple of months off work at the end for the CPL/IR courses.
By then you'll be around the 41/42 mark which, although you'll be up against younger more experienced people, is still not that old.... I know a couple of people who have landed their first airline jobs around the 40yr mark.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
It seems to me that you are looking to go either the integrated route or a full time modular route.
Would you mind me asking why?
As you require security for the HSBC bank loan, have you thought about doing the modular route one step at a time as and when you can afford the courses?
For example, save up and pay for your PPL. Then once you have your PPL you can start your ATPL Ground School via Distance Learning (around the £2000 mark excluding CAA fees).
Whilst you're studying for the exams you could be putting money away to pay for an hour building stint over in the USA (100 hours at around $70 an hour for a C152 would be $7000 / £4000 in the States).
Once you have the PPL with 150 hours and ATPL Exams passed you'll be eligible to start your CPL and IR courses. This is were it gets expensive but you can probably get away with both courses for 15K-20K - a lot more attainable in terms of bank loans than 60K would be!
You'll have the same license and it'll only take two to three years and at the same time you'll be working fulltime, thus being able to support yourself all the way through the courses. You may just have to have a couple of months off work at the end for the CPL/IR courses.
By then you'll be around the 41/42 mark which, although you'll be up against younger more experienced people, is still not that old.... I know a couple of people who have landed their first airline jobs around the 40yr mark.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
going boldly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear CZ,
I thought I had posted a reply, but I cannot have. [Must have pressed the destruct button, rather than the 'post' one.]
The course I was looking at included a year as an intern instructor. That would have allowed me to finish with all the professional qualifications and 1500hrs under the belt. That would have been nice.
I am currently in a low paid profession. In order to go the modular route, I have to change profession, then do the modular training, then change profession again. Although that will have the advantage of leaving me without the significant debt at the end of it.
I already have the PPL and nearly 100hrs.
If I were able to do the integrated route, I would end up potentially ready for the airlines just before my 41 birthday.
Going modular, this will not be until I am 43 (or 45 with the same number of hours).
Every minute makes one less employable, I believe.
So, those are my reasons... now looking for modular solutions.
JD
(Preferably near Bromley)
I thought I had posted a reply, but I cannot have. [Must have pressed the destruct button, rather than the 'post' one.]
The course I was looking at included a year as an intern instructor. That would have allowed me to finish with all the professional qualifications and 1500hrs under the belt. That would have been nice.
I am currently in a low paid profession. In order to go the modular route, I have to change profession, then do the modular training, then change profession again. Although that will have the advantage of leaving me without the significant debt at the end of it.
I already have the PPL and nearly 100hrs.
If I were able to do the integrated route, I would end up potentially ready for the airlines just before my 41 birthday.
Going modular, this will not be until I am 43 (or 45 with the same number of hours).
Every minute makes one less employable, I believe.
So, those are my reasons... now looking for modular solutions.
JD
(Preferably near Bromley)
going boldly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is now certain that the only way to the ATPL is now through the modular route. Does anyone have suggestions for jobs that I could take to both fund the course and to make me more employable as a pilot afterwards?
John
John