Training for the Aged (38)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Not so far away anymore
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Charlie Zulu - your reply interested me - I have the PPL and the 100 hours and the distance learning ATPL would really be of use to me as I could do that from here (NZ) in time to come back the UK in a couple of years qualified whilst still getting the cheap glying here - can you tell me where would be the best places to make enquiries about the distance learning ATPL stuff?
Would really appreciate it!
Cheers
Would really appreciate it!
Cheers
going boldly
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
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Thanks for that... was thinking that having the 1500hrs as an intern instructor would be useful. However, now the loan route is disappearing, I am looking forward to pursuing the modular route.
It does mean one or two sacrifices... selling most of my stuff, living with relatives, getting a different job for the time being... but nothing ventured, nothing gained!
Have ATPL theory books... have started studying them.
Thanks, zk, for your post, too.
JD
It does mean one or two sacrifices... selling most of my stuff, living with relatives, getting a different job for the time being... but nothing ventured, nothing gained!
Have ATPL theory books... have started studying them.
Thanks, zk, for your post, too.
JD
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Sold house, some of belongings, lived back with parents for a year at the grand age of 32. Joined integrated course last Oct, currently sat having done 7 JARS, 90 hours of the course...October is not far away. Haven't been out, haven't dated a woman, have no money but in October that is all going to change. When I meet the mates, pull the girl and drink the drink I will look different. I will have a years flying memories in my head, have many new friends, a nice blue liscence in my pocket and the smile of a man who had a dream and followed it to the end.
Just go for it!
Just go for it!
going boldly
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
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Yes, I was wondering who the man with the smile was... jobs still not easy to get. I think someone said that the market is improving again!
I got the Oxford Aviation texts... they seem clear enough and have questions and answers sections.
Think that an easier route might be to buy some blue paint for my brown licence... but only at the beginning - many adventures ahead.
The maths is that I will spend £10,000 pa on flying. That's got to be fun. Who cares if I get a job at the end of it. lol. (Would be nice, though.)
So here I go - off into the blue yonder.
John
I got the Oxford Aviation texts... they seem clear enough and have questions and answers sections.
Think that an easier route might be to buy some blue paint for my brown licence... but only at the beginning - many adventures ahead.
The maths is that I will spend £10,000 pa on flying. That's got to be fun. Who cares if I get a job at the end of it. lol. (Would be nice, though.)
So here I go - off into the blue yonder.
John
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Liverpool, UK
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wow!!! Im 26 (27 in August) and was warned that I may be past it!!!
At the moment I have a total of 0 hours flying (but over 250 on ms flight 2004!!!)
The only thing that is stopping me paying £3000 and going to Florida to learn is I have a 2 year old son to think about, otherwise I would probably have had my PPL by now (oh and lack of money also!
)
Everthing I read here is helping me learn new things everyday but Im almost 100% certain that I want to be that guy in the smartly pressed suit in the left hand seat of a Boeing after travelling 3000 odd miles from Manchester, UK to JFK, NY (and maybe a few 10 hour flights to the Caribbean)
If anyone can give me any advice then I would really appreciate it
Thanks guys
At the moment I have a total of 0 hours flying (but over 250 on ms flight 2004!!!)
The only thing that is stopping me paying £3000 and going to Florida to learn is I have a 2 year old son to think about, otherwise I would probably have had my PPL by now (oh and lack of money also!
)Everthing I read here is helping me learn new things everyday but Im almost 100% certain that I want to be that guy in the smartly pressed suit in the left hand seat of a Boeing after travelling 3000 odd miles from Manchester, UK to JFK, NY (and maybe a few 10 hour flights to the Caribbean)
If anyone can give me any advice then I would really appreciate it
Thanks guys
going boldly
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, UK
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Well, today I went to Oxford to see the APP program. It seems to be everything it says on the web-site. The planes looked shiny (although the single-engine ones that the British trainees use are out in the State and I didn't have a chance to pop out there). People seem friendly and coordinated. I was impressed.
The problem is finding something to secure my loan on... just found out that the offer of a £60k loan was pretty good going... I had done my own business case, so I was quite chuffed.
The other delegates could have been my children... but there you go. [I don't think any of them were, though.]
The problem is finding something to secure my loan on... just found out that the offer of a £60k loan was pretty good going... I had done my own business case, so I was quite chuffed.
The other delegates could have been my children... but there you go. [I don't think any of them were, though.]
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Im 35 and feeling it but i wanna be a proper pilot!!! Apart from the financial aspect is it really that hard,how long will it take if I can afford the best tution and all the time?(going to use equity in house to fund training ,think I will tell them I want a conservatory!!)
Harsh reality is that many of the airlines are looking for youth or experience. Curent phrase is experience commensurate with age so if you're in your thirties and have 250 hrs you're probably not going to get much of a look in. There are exceptions, I know, and I have a friend who started with Brittania last year with 400 odd hrs in his early-mid thirties. BA Citiexpress looking for people who are under 30. EasyJet accepting people on their TRSS who have in excess of 500 hrs. Even if you do join FlyBE, BA Citiexpress or Loganair, how long will it take you to pay back £60000 when you're earning £20000? Pay scales here
There is no business case in the world that can justify this. Remember the bank wants to lend to you because that's how they make their money.
There is no business case in the world that can justify this. Remember the bank wants to lend to you because that's how they make their money.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Flying Farmer
The thing that I have seen from pprune and talking to various people is that you seem to have 2 camps. Camp 1, I have paid £60,000 therefore I should at least have a job at the end of it. Camp 2, I have paid £60,000 and believe I can get a job at the end of it.
Lets take a profession that doesn't realy include self finance ie a Surgeon. Some guy or girl spends endless years of their life studying, not going out on the lash, building up there CV with interesting hobbies, sports etc. and becomes a thoroughly 'employable' person. They still haveto go for an interview, they still haveto sell themselves and correct me if I'm wrong but do they walk out of Medical school with job contract in hand, NO!
The difference with a commercial flying job is that there is no real barrier to entry for training for what is essentialy a professional vocation. For doctor, lawyer, vet etc you haveto have achieved a high level of academic secess prior to training eg if you get through this you pretty much know you can get through the rest. For this job if you have the bucks you can do the course. In my book that's a very positive factor that a lot of students forget. Don't get me wrong and I don't know individual circumstances but I hear every day from students about job worries and how hard it all is. If these same students were put into the commercial business world they would find it just as hard if not harder to get a decent job. A lot of them are grossly underqualified, have done little with there lives and are highly unemployable but they seem to forget this because they have been fortunate enough to be able to afford the training.
Too much time is spent looking at the negatives of this industry and I beleive a lot of the time it's by people who haven't got the self faith that they can do it. I'm sure those of us that have had commercial flying training will have seen it all. Some of these students have endless pots of cash, they have taken JAR's endless times, they have taken flight tests hundreds of times they have been doing the integrated course for 3 years and who is it that's sat talking about how they are owed a job because they have put so much into this career...guess who?
I sound a bit harsh but it does get to me sometimes when I keep hearing about 'yeah but will there be a job at the end of it'. I don't know, what would David Beckham, Eric Clapton and Robbie Williams have said if you told them as I'm sure there mothers and friends did..put that ball down down david and do your homework, put the guitar down Eric or you will end up playing to the commuters on the tube...Robbie, you leave this band and you are finished, you are nothing without us. They went for what they wanted, job or no job and when they made that choice career security would have been where on there list?
This vocation is highly insecure, you may never get a flying job, the pay is falling and the hours are crap. My advice is keep your money in the bank, get a job with the government (nice pension), take your 2 week hols. with the family each year and enjoy yourself. To all those who are willing to risk it and that's all it is, then go for it.
The thing that I have seen from pprune and talking to various people is that you seem to have 2 camps. Camp 1, I have paid £60,000 therefore I should at least have a job at the end of it. Camp 2, I have paid £60,000 and believe I can get a job at the end of it.
Lets take a profession that doesn't realy include self finance ie a Surgeon. Some guy or girl spends endless years of their life studying, not going out on the lash, building up there CV with interesting hobbies, sports etc. and becomes a thoroughly 'employable' person. They still haveto go for an interview, they still haveto sell themselves and correct me if I'm wrong but do they walk out of Medical school with job contract in hand, NO!
The difference with a commercial flying job is that there is no real barrier to entry for training for what is essentialy a professional vocation. For doctor, lawyer, vet etc you haveto have achieved a high level of academic secess prior to training eg if you get through this you pretty much know you can get through the rest. For this job if you have the bucks you can do the course. In my book that's a very positive factor that a lot of students forget. Don't get me wrong and I don't know individual circumstances but I hear every day from students about job worries and how hard it all is. If these same students were put into the commercial business world they would find it just as hard if not harder to get a decent job. A lot of them are grossly underqualified, have done little with there lives and are highly unemployable but they seem to forget this because they have been fortunate enough to be able to afford the training.
Too much time is spent looking at the negatives of this industry and I beleive a lot of the time it's by people who haven't got the self faith that they can do it. I'm sure those of us that have had commercial flying training will have seen it all. Some of these students have endless pots of cash, they have taken JAR's endless times, they have taken flight tests hundreds of times they have been doing the integrated course for 3 years and who is it that's sat talking about how they are owed a job because they have put so much into this career...guess who?
I sound a bit harsh but it does get to me sometimes when I keep hearing about 'yeah but will there be a job at the end of it'. I don't know, what would David Beckham, Eric Clapton and Robbie Williams have said if you told them as I'm sure there mothers and friends did..put that ball down down david and do your homework, put the guitar down Eric or you will end up playing to the commuters on the tube...Robbie, you leave this band and you are finished, you are nothing without us. They went for what they wanted, job or no job and when they made that choice career security would have been where on there list?
This vocation is highly insecure, you may never get a flying job, the pay is falling and the hours are crap. My advice is keep your money in the bank, get a job with the government (nice pension), take your 2 week hols. with the family each year and enjoy yourself. To all those who are willing to risk it and that's all it is, then go for it.
Join Date: May 2004
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At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, I can't help thinking what will happen when Age Discrimination legislation is brought onto the UK statute books in 2006.
The 45 year old with 1500 hrs, say 100 - 200 MEP, passed over in favour of the 23 year old with 250 hrs, mostly SEP, may have legal grounds for complaint.
The 45 year old with 1500 hrs, say 100 - 200 MEP, passed over in favour of the 23 year old with 250 hrs, mostly SEP, may have legal grounds for complaint.
Join Date: May 2004
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I think what you'll find is that there are Age Discrimination Codes of Practice in place which, whilst being best practice guidelines, are not compulsory for employers.
My understanding is that, in 2006 Regulations are to be introduced that will more or less 'mirror' the existing CoP but which are legal obligations for those affected.
Of course, this doesn't mean that the flood gates will be opened for all who feel aggrieved. As with all new legislation, there will be a settling in period and, of course, until case law precedent is set, there will probably be a great deal of uncertainty.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if certain employment groups were granted exemptions, possibly even civil aviation.
BTW, I am not a legal professional so do not comment with any authority.
My understanding is that, in 2006 Regulations are to be introduced that will more or less 'mirror' the existing CoP but which are legal obligations for those affected.
Of course, this doesn't mean that the flood gates will be opened for all who feel aggrieved. As with all new legislation, there will be a settling in period and, of course, until case law precedent is set, there will probably be a great deal of uncertainty.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if certain employment groups were granted exemptions, possibly even civil aviation.
BTW, I am not a legal professional so do not comment with any authority.
going boldly
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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I suppose the question I have never seen answered is 'Are younger people better pilots?' I can see that the may well have better reaction times, learn quicker, etc.
On the other hand, older people are likely to have more experience of life, more idea of how to cope in an emergency and a better attitude to risk.
So, are there accident/other stats that would show which is best?
On the other hand, older people are likely to have more experience of life, more idea of how to cope in an emergency and a better attitude to risk.
So, are there accident/other stats that would show which is best?
going boldly
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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Well done HSBC! As my parents did not want to give the bank their house... the bank have come up with another solution:
an escrow account, or an option on life insurance.
This is a possibility.
So life suddenly looks more exciting!
JD
PS An escrow is an account with the bank that my parents would leave money in, in case I did not pay back the loan, the bank could use their money.
The escrow account would gain interest.
Can my parents tie up that sort of money for that length of time? ... That is the question!
an escrow account, or an option on life insurance.
This is a possibility.
So life suddenly looks more exciting!
JD
PS An escrow is an account with the bank that my parents would leave money in, in case I did not pay back the loan, the bank could use their money.
The escrow account would gain interest.
Can my parents tie up that sort of money for that length of time? ... That is the question!
going boldly
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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Still no reply on the escrow thing... but I have passed my class 1 medical. This means that the rest of it is possible.
For those interested in the medical... before you can take the EEG, you have to sign a form acknowledging that the test may bring on some form of fit. If it does bring on the fit, you will lose your DRIVING licence for a time (normally at least a year). As my current job is dependent upon me driving, I did gulp hard as I signed. The potential was that I could fail the class 1 - meaning no hope of professional pilotting AND lose my current job.
Happily, the heavy breathing and flashing lights did not adversely affect me. However, for some of you this might be an important consideration. [Hope that is a helpful warning.]
Although now have an unhealthy love of disco... darned test.
For those interested in the medical... before you can take the EEG, you have to sign a form acknowledging that the test may bring on some form of fit. If it does bring on the fit, you will lose your DRIVING licence for a time (normally at least a year). As my current job is dependent upon me driving, I did gulp hard as I signed. The potential was that I could fail the class 1 - meaning no hope of professional pilotting AND lose my current job.
Happily, the heavy breathing and flashing lights did not adversely affect me. However, for some of you this might be an important consideration. [Hope that is a helpful warning.]
Although now have an unhealthy love of disco... darned test.
Last edited by jd10k; 22nd Aug 2004 at 12:30.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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At my age, are there any employment prospects???
Dare I ask what sort of remuneration to expect?
“There are a number of training organisations, eg Oxford Aviation and EFT. I wonder if you could enlighten me with your experiences of both”
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Remuneration isn't bad if you land yourself a jet job.
If you get a turboprop job don't expect a lot of money.
Lowest I know for an FO is 14K (night freight Shed job - may have to even pay for the rating), average for turboprop FO's is 18-20K.
Can you live on that kind of money and pay back a huge loan on that? Expect to be an FO for ~3 years.
You might think that's not bad, do that for a year or so and then get a jet job. That's fine but have a look at the folks who are hiring turboprop pilots. The same companies that now charge ~23K to join them. If you haven't got an ATPL, you'll be on the lower end of the pay scale.
The Q400 I believe isn't bad at around 29K.
If you get a turboprop job don't expect a lot of money.
Lowest I know for an FO is 14K (night freight Shed job - may have to even pay for the rating), average for turboprop FO's is 18-20K.
Can you live on that kind of money and pay back a huge loan on that? Expect to be an FO for ~3 years.
You might think that's not bad, do that for a year or so and then get a jet job. That's fine but have a look at the folks who are hiring turboprop pilots. The same companies that now charge ~23K to join them. If you haven't got an ATPL, you'll be on the lower end of the pay scale.
The Q400 I believe isn't bad at around 29K.
Join Date: Sep 2000
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I looked at this in 2002 in the life laundry after my old man died. My current job pays pretty well (£2500 a month in my hand), I have £200k equity in my house and life is comfortable. I have done my job for 15 years, and am 15 years off pension (52). Hopefully I will attain at least another two ranks prior to retirement. I can't be sacked unless I do something criminal.
I have a mate who is a source of many wise words. His advice is to remember where you come in the food chain. Your sole purpose in life it to provide for your dependants. Despite the fact you only get one crack at this life, part of the pleasure is seeing others benefit from your toils.
I want to be an airline pilot. The reality is, I am not going to be one. The stakes are too high and the wife and kids aren't chips in a poker game.
I would always say to anyone thinking of risking everything, find someone older than you to mentor your ideas, and keep the reality checks coming thick and fast
STANDTO
I have a mate who is a source of many wise words. His advice is to remember where you come in the food chain. Your sole purpose in life it to provide for your dependants. Despite the fact you only get one crack at this life, part of the pleasure is seeing others benefit from your toils.
I want to be an airline pilot. The reality is, I am not going to be one. The stakes are too high and the wife and kids aren't chips in a poker game.
I would always say to anyone thinking of risking everything, find someone older than you to mentor your ideas, and keep the reality checks coming thick and fast
STANDTO