Cpl / Atpl
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
From: Down the field!
Cpl / Atpl
Please excuse my ignorance on this, but can someone please explain to me the difference between a CPL, and an ATPL. My understanding was that an ATPL allows you to fly for money… Is that the case, and if so, that’s a CPL for?
Thanks very much
Grob Driver
Thanks very much
Grob Driver
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: Bournemouth, UK
CPL allows you to be paid to fly. ATPL allows you to be paid to be the pilot in command of a multi-crew aircraft. All the details, if you don't mind a long boring read, can be found in the ANO.
Regards
Stoney X
Regards
Stoney X
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
No, that is not correct.
A CPL allows you to fly for money.
An ATPL allows you to fly, as captain, in a multi-pilot aircraft, for money.
You might also hear the term "frozen ATPL" or fATPL, especially in JAR-land. Although technically there is no such license, the phrase is used to mean a CPL/IR, with the exam credits for the ATPL, but without the hours for the ATPL. (The minimum requirements are 1500 hours, including 500 hours on a multi-pilot aircraft.) A fATPL is usually a requirement emposed by airlines before they'll hire you.
Hope that clears it up!
FFF
----------------
[Edit to note that I agre with Stoney - he got in before me!]
A CPL allows you to fly for money.
An ATPL allows you to fly, as captain, in a multi-pilot aircraft, for money.
You might also hear the term "frozen ATPL" or fATPL, especially in JAR-land. Although technically there is no such license, the phrase is used to mean a CPL/IR, with the exam credits for the ATPL, but without the hours for the ATPL. (The minimum requirements are 1500 hours, including 500 hours on a multi-pilot aircraft.) A fATPL is usually a requirement emposed by airlines before they'll hire you.
Hope that clears it up!
FFF
----------------
[Edit to note that I agre with Stoney - he got in before me!]
, come along to the Proffesional Flight Training Show down at Heathrow, they´ll have all the answers.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,198
Likes: 0
From: South Norfolk, England
Hi All
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I'm looking for some advice.
Is there any benefit to doing the the ATPL ground exams over the CPL ones for someone in my circumstances? Basically I'm a 40 year old, 15 year PPL holder who's decided to take the next step at last. I have no intention of going for airline work (lets face it, at my age who'd want me?). At this stage I'm just looking to do distance learning and take the ground exams. I've then got three years to complete the flying bit. I'd like to do the CPL (flying) for issue of the CPL and do a bit of aerial work as and when I can find it, then later doing an FIR. Or I may just end up going for an FIR if I'm unable to afford both or at least the CPL within the three years.
Given that info, is there any advantage in doing the ATPL papers over doing just the CPL ones?
Thanks
SS
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I'm looking for some advice.
Is there any benefit to doing the the ATPL ground exams over the CPL ones for someone in my circumstances? Basically I'm a 40 year old, 15 year PPL holder who's decided to take the next step at last. I have no intention of going for airline work (lets face it, at my age who'd want me?). At this stage I'm just looking to do distance learning and take the ground exams. I've then got three years to complete the flying bit. I'd like to do the CPL (flying) for issue of the CPL and do a bit of aerial work as and when I can find it, then later doing an FIR. Or I may just end up going for an FIR if I'm unable to afford both or at least the CPL within the three years.
Given that info, is there any advantage in doing the ATPL papers over doing just the CPL ones?
Thanks
SS
Better red than ...
Joined: Aug 2004
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,415
Likes: 0
From: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Probably not. Most schools appear to have been selling the ATPL course over the CPL (my experience) as it is "more of the same with the same ending" (and so easier to adminsiter for them).
If Rotary, or A with intent as you say, then starting CPL may be best.
You can catch up the other 4 or 5 papers later on if you want to do IR/ ATPL/ other
GTS locally at Bournmouth do a CPL course which may fit for you. One of my course mates used to commute daily to the course from Chichester on the train.
I stand to be corrected if wrong, but this double modular is starting to look like the best way of achieving a commercial license for rotary wing.
h-r
If Rotary, or A with intent as you say, then starting CPL may be best.
You can catch up the other 4 or 5 papers later on if you want to do IR/ ATPL/ other
GTS locally at Bournmouth do a CPL course which may fit for you. One of my course mates used to commute daily to the course from Chichester on the train.
I stand to be corrected if wrong, but this double modular is starting to look like the best way of achieving a commercial license for rotary wing.
h-r
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
From: UK
I believe - though i may be wrong that if you have passed the cpl exams and want to upgrade to ATPL you have to do all the subjects again. The CPL subjects (even though they are the same, are not credited). Sounds crazy but i believe that is what you have to do. It might make sense just to do the ATPLs - the course cost for the CPL exams is only marginally cheaper than the ATPL course anyway.
Foz
Foz
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
From: Surrey, England
CPL
Grob Driver,
My advice, through bitter experience, is to say don't do the CPL under any circumstances whatsoever: do the ATPL.
The CPL only has nine papers, but you are actually examined in 13 (yes, thirteen) subjects within those nine papers.
Let me explain the implications of this. Let's take an example, Navigation. In the ATPL General Navigation and Radio Navigation are two entirely different papers each with, I suppose, 70 odd questions in the exam for each subject: a total of about 140 questions. Clearly, it is possible to pass one and fail the other. If you fail one, you only have to revise the one you failed for your next attempt.
CPL Navigation is one paper that embraces both General and Radio Navigation, but you still only get, say 70 questions within which to demonstrate your knowledge. The syllabus for CPL Navigation covers at least 85% of the ATPL syllabus for both General and Radio Navigation.
Since the pass mark is 75% in all papers, you don't have to get many questions wrong in the CPL to fail effectively two subjects. This means you will have to revise both for your next attempt.
The Central Question Bank comprises a body of questions 85% of which are perfectly fair and reasonable. The remaining 15% are split equally between complete 'no brainers' and questions that require a depth of understanding far beyond anything that any commercial pilot needs for operational purposes. Questions are selected for inclusion in the paper by some kind of random selection process, so by sheer luck you can get either several 'no brainers' or several exessively difficult questions.
I think you can see that even if you have genuinely done the work, just a few of those excessively difficult questions could scupper your chances of passing, and then you have to revise the whole of two subjects all over again in order to repeat one paper. I found that this made the CPL far trickier (notice I say trickier, not more difficult) to pass than the ATPL!
At 40, you are not too old for some of the turbo-prop airlines, (read Clive Hughes' Guide to Becoming a Professional Pilot). and even if you never unfreeze your fATPL and end up with a pure and simple CPL, I still think you will be more likely to succeed doing ATPL than CPL.
Good Luck!
My advice, through bitter experience, is to say don't do the CPL under any circumstances whatsoever: do the ATPL.
The CPL only has nine papers, but you are actually examined in 13 (yes, thirteen) subjects within those nine papers.
Let me explain the implications of this. Let's take an example, Navigation. In the ATPL General Navigation and Radio Navigation are two entirely different papers each with, I suppose, 70 odd questions in the exam for each subject: a total of about 140 questions. Clearly, it is possible to pass one and fail the other. If you fail one, you only have to revise the one you failed for your next attempt.
CPL Navigation is one paper that embraces both General and Radio Navigation, but you still only get, say 70 questions within which to demonstrate your knowledge. The syllabus for CPL Navigation covers at least 85% of the ATPL syllabus for both General and Radio Navigation.
Since the pass mark is 75% in all papers, you don't have to get many questions wrong in the CPL to fail effectively two subjects. This means you will have to revise both for your next attempt.
The Central Question Bank comprises a body of questions 85% of which are perfectly fair and reasonable. The remaining 15% are split equally between complete 'no brainers' and questions that require a depth of understanding far beyond anything that any commercial pilot needs for operational purposes. Questions are selected for inclusion in the paper by some kind of random selection process, so by sheer luck you can get either several 'no brainers' or several exessively difficult questions.
I think you can see that even if you have genuinely done the work, just a few of those excessively difficult questions could scupper your chances of passing, and then you have to revise the whole of two subjects all over again in order to repeat one paper. I found that this made the CPL far trickier (notice I say trickier, not more difficult) to pass than the ATPL!
At 40, you are not too old for some of the turbo-prop airlines, (read Clive Hughes' Guide to Becoming a Professional Pilot). and even if you never unfreeze your fATPL and end up with a pure and simple CPL, I still think you will be more likely to succeed doing ATPL than CPL.
Good Luck!
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
From: Heart of Europe
find mor info here:
http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html
download the PDF for the JAR-FCL 1
look for CPL privileges at JAR-FCL 1.150
and for ATPL privileges at JAR-FCL 1.275
CPL allowing only PIC in single pilot operation and co-pilot in multi pilot aircraft.
ATPL (you get all the privileges)
If thinking to fly a biz-jet once get the ATPL anyway. So you get all done in once - jet aircraft - high performance, RVSM, long range nav etc. study once take examination once. as the difference is only the theory part which should not be that much more expensive than a CPL.
http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html
download the PDF for the JAR-FCL 1
look for CPL privileges at JAR-FCL 1.150
and for ATPL privileges at JAR-FCL 1.275
CPL allowing only PIC in single pilot operation and co-pilot in multi pilot aircraft.
ATPL (you get all the privileges)
If thinking to fly a biz-jet once get the ATPL anyway. So you get all done in once - jet aircraft - high performance, RVSM, long range nav etc. study once take examination once. as the difference is only the theory part which should not be that much more expensive than a CPL.
