Does anyone knows what happed to BAE Systems
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It seens that you have a problem with the spelling f my nick name.
Im know what Im talking about. If you think that they are not true fair enouht but I do think they are. And I always give the reason why I think that.
Maybe I know a few people too in Cuatro Vientos
Anyway I have seen that you never answer my questions I will be pleased if you do it.
Im know what Im talking about. If you think that they are not true fair enouht but I do think they are. And I always give the reason why I think that.
Maybe I know a few people too in Cuatro Vientos
Anyway I have seen that you never answer my questions I will be pleased if you do it.
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Airchart
If one day you have time we can have a chat in the pprune chat so we can talk about things like FTOs or what ever you want. I think that we can learn a lot. Just send me a message saying the day and time. If any one else wants to participate will be great.
If one day you have time we can have a chat in the pprune chat so we can talk about things like FTOs or what ever you want. I think that we can learn a lot. Just send me a message saying the day and time. If any one else wants to participate will be great.
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Isn’t it amazing how a simple thread of discussion can so easily be sidetracked into a mudslinging match? However, I have to say that in this instance I agree with all those who disagree with peb. Why? Lets start with a couple of quotes from said “expert.”
“I just give the facts that I know and my opinion.”
“I do not have anything to do with BAE.”
Given that the latter is true (thank goodness), then how on earth can anything this individual has to say be based on anything like facts? Has he ever been there? How many former students and/or staff members does he know? How many current students and/or staff members does he know? How many of them has he spoken to? I suspect that the answer to those questions fall in a range between zero and none.
He claims (is this a fact or an opinion I wonder?) that there are more staff than students. Amazing that, because last time I counted there were close to 50 students and fourteen flying instructors. I have heard the quote about lies, damned lies, and statistics, but in this instance peb has beaten all the odds and managed to negate an almost four to one ratio.
He “KNOWS” what happened with Khalifa does he? I very much doubt it, but just for the record the Khalifa students were repatriated on the 3rd March last year because the airline owner, their sponsor, had consistently failed to pay his bills. When last heard of he was wanted in both France and his homeland of Algeria and was living in London.
He also claims that he is able to TELL us that BAE Systems tried to sell the college to Aeromadrid. B******s!! The college was put up for sale and Aeromadrid was but one of the companies that expressed an interest, no more and no less.
Where on earth does this person get the idea that it has the capacity for 150 students? At the allowable CAA ratio of 6 students per instructor it would need 25 instructors. The only time they had anywhere near that number (33 as a matter of FACT (the emphasis on the word “fact” is for your benefit peb)) was when the Khalifa students were there. During this period the company hired a large number of consultants (= temporary staff). Prior to that there were 20 full time flying instructors giving a maximum capacity of 120 students.
Incidentally Concordino, BAE Systems does plan to sell Adelaide. It has decided to pull out of the flying training market and concentrate its resources on loftier things like defence. The sale of its training organisations has been done one at a time. You are partly right in that Jerez was sold first because it was making a loss (difficult to be profitable when a major sponsor isn’t paying you) whereas Adelaide is in the black. The problem with Adelaide as an FTO (as far as BAE Systems is concerned), is the distance from Europe.
“I just give the facts that I know and my opinion.”
“I do not have anything to do with BAE.”
Given that the latter is true (thank goodness), then how on earth can anything this individual has to say be based on anything like facts? Has he ever been there? How many former students and/or staff members does he know? How many current students and/or staff members does he know? How many of them has he spoken to? I suspect that the answer to those questions fall in a range between zero and none.
He claims (is this a fact or an opinion I wonder?) that there are more staff than students. Amazing that, because last time I counted there were close to 50 students and fourteen flying instructors. I have heard the quote about lies, damned lies, and statistics, but in this instance peb has beaten all the odds and managed to negate an almost four to one ratio.
He “KNOWS” what happened with Khalifa does he? I very much doubt it, but just for the record the Khalifa students were repatriated on the 3rd March last year because the airline owner, their sponsor, had consistently failed to pay his bills. When last heard of he was wanted in both France and his homeland of Algeria and was living in London.
He also claims that he is able to TELL us that BAE Systems tried to sell the college to Aeromadrid. B******s!! The college was put up for sale and Aeromadrid was but one of the companies that expressed an interest, no more and no less.
Where on earth does this person get the idea that it has the capacity for 150 students? At the allowable CAA ratio of 6 students per instructor it would need 25 instructors. The only time they had anywhere near that number (33 as a matter of FACT (the emphasis on the word “fact” is for your benefit peb)) was when the Khalifa students were there. During this period the company hired a large number of consultants (= temporary staff). Prior to that there were 20 full time flying instructors giving a maximum capacity of 120 students.
Incidentally Concordino, BAE Systems does plan to sell Adelaide. It has decided to pull out of the flying training market and concentrate its resources on loftier things like defence. The sale of its training organisations has been done one at a time. You are partly right in that Jerez was sold first because it was making a loss (difficult to be profitable when a major sponsor isn’t paying you) whereas Adelaide is in the black. The problem with Adelaide as an FTO (as far as BAE Systems is concerned), is the distance from Europe.
Mach1.1 has it all correct.
I suspect the school is entirely viable from this point on as the mighty BAE spent a fortune setting it all up only to change their mind and sell it for a song.
With limited debts and all the major investment paid for the place should one assumes be able to tick along quite nicely for many years to come.
peb - you appear partisan and uninformed.
Cheers
WWW
I suspect the school is entirely viable from this point on as the mighty BAE spent a fortune setting it all up only to change their mind and sell it for a song.
With limited debts and all the major investment paid for the place should one assumes be able to tick along quite nicely for many years to come.
peb - you appear partisan and uninformed.
Cheers
WWW
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Mach-1 & 3W.
A few points:
Capacity has little to do with the number of instructors and more to do with fixed facilities such as rooms etc. Adelaide for example went beyond their "real" capacity to accomodate Khalifa by bringing in demountable buildings and hiring more flying instructors. As to the viability or otherwise of Jerez I suggest that a student population of less than 50 is not going to make sufficient revenue to cover the FIXED costs associated with running a college of that size, regardless of how you trim staff.
As to BAE being to far away you might like to consider that both Parafield and Tamworth (the other BAE SYSTEMS college in OZ) are in fact run by Flight Training Australia (just as Jerez was run by Flight Training Europe).
As to whether BAE SYSTEMS are "getting out" of flight training I suggest that you read Ian King's announcement of 11 Nov - it does not require much thought to see that there is a longer term plan in place.
But - hell let's not let any 'facts' get in the way of a good slaughter!!!!
A few points:
Capacity has little to do with the number of instructors and more to do with fixed facilities such as rooms etc. Adelaide for example went beyond their "real" capacity to accomodate Khalifa by bringing in demountable buildings and hiring more flying instructors. As to the viability or otherwise of Jerez I suggest that a student population of less than 50 is not going to make sufficient revenue to cover the FIXED costs associated with running a college of that size, regardless of how you trim staff.
As to BAE being to far away you might like to consider that both Parafield and Tamworth (the other BAE SYSTEMS college in OZ) are in fact run by Flight Training Australia (just as Jerez was run by Flight Training Europe).
As to whether BAE SYSTEMS are "getting out" of flight training I suggest that you read Ian King's announcement of 11 Nov - it does not require much thought to see that there is a longer term plan in place.
But - hell let's not let any 'facts' get in the way of a good slaughter!!!!
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Tubby One
I have to admit that I have not read Ian King's announcement, so I am prepared to stand corrected. Are you able to give me a source so that I can get hold of a copy? However, my comments on the sale of Adelaide and BAE System's decision to pull the plug on civil flying training were based on what I was told. The person who told me was the former (until recently) General Manager at Adelaide. I, and several others, were given this information less than a week ago.
As for the numbers game, I agree that in terms of rooms etc there is space and capacity for more than 50 students. My comments were based primarily on pebs assertion that there are more staff than students here. Whether or not the current numbers are enough is a matter of conjecture. Of course more would be better, but at this time of recession Jerez is suffering, just as most European schools are, from the lack of candidates who signed on last year. Incidentally, the majority of Khalifa students were housed in a hotel in the centre of Jerez. I mentioned in my previous letter the increase in staff to cater for them.
"Slaughter?" Your word not mine. However, I am not prepared to stand by while somebody who has absolutely no first hand knowledge of events at Jerez, either past or present, airs his biased and malicious views in public.
M1.1
I have to admit that I have not read Ian King's announcement, so I am prepared to stand corrected. Are you able to give me a source so that I can get hold of a copy? However, my comments on the sale of Adelaide and BAE System's decision to pull the plug on civil flying training were based on what I was told. The person who told me was the former (until recently) General Manager at Adelaide. I, and several others, were given this information less than a week ago.
As for the numbers game, I agree that in terms of rooms etc there is space and capacity for more than 50 students. My comments were based primarily on pebs assertion that there are more staff than students here. Whether or not the current numbers are enough is a matter of conjecture. Of course more would be better, but at this time of recession Jerez is suffering, just as most European schools are, from the lack of candidates who signed on last year. Incidentally, the majority of Khalifa students were housed in a hotel in the centre of Jerez. I mentioned in my previous letter the increase in staff to cater for them.
"Slaughter?" Your word not mine. However, I am not prepared to stand by while somebody who has absolutely no first hand knowledge of events at Jerez, either past or present, airs his biased and malicious views in public.
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A postcard from Jerez..
I don't post here often (I simply don't have the time) but reading this unfair thread I feel the need to set the record straight!
I am a self-sponsored student here at Jerez, having signed a contract with the company last June, when it was owned by BAE Systems. I have to say that notwithstanding some natural concern amongst the student body at the time BAE Systems' plan to exit the commercial flight training business was announced last September, the transition to Flight Training Europe has been smooth, and life goes on pretty much as before so far as delivery of the service is concerned. The weather is a bit naff this week for VFR, so we are pressing on with groundschool, but that isn't exactly the management's fault !
The new management team are straight-talking and approachable. They are communicating with us and they seem to me to be doing the right things. Sure numbers are down on what they once were, but this is a cyclical business and that seems to be the case at other integrated schools in recent times. New courses are being run every couple of months; smaller class sizes but that is no bad thing if you're a student !
When I first came out here to look around and do the aptitude tests I stayed on campus for a couple of nights and I had ample opportunity to talk openly to instructors and students. I would encourage anyone considering Jerez (or any other FTO) to do likewise.
Before people start sneering from the sidelines, apart from a PPL I haven't experienced flight training anywhere else. I too looked at various other integrated and modular training options .. at the end of the day choosing an FTO is very much about your personal circumstances.
Enough of the brown-nosing .. I just wanted to say that it has all turned out well. Change is a given and no organisation can ever plan perfectly, but life on the inside is generally good, dare I say fun even, and thus far I'm getting the quality training that I signed up for...
Many happy landings to all, whatever you decide.
George.
PS as I haven't seen it referenced here, the new website is www.flighttrainingeurope.com
I am a self-sponsored student here at Jerez, having signed a contract with the company last June, when it was owned by BAE Systems. I have to say that notwithstanding some natural concern amongst the student body at the time BAE Systems' plan to exit the commercial flight training business was announced last September, the transition to Flight Training Europe has been smooth, and life goes on pretty much as before so far as delivery of the service is concerned. The weather is a bit naff this week for VFR, so we are pressing on with groundschool, but that isn't exactly the management's fault !
The new management team are straight-talking and approachable. They are communicating with us and they seem to me to be doing the right things. Sure numbers are down on what they once were, but this is a cyclical business and that seems to be the case at other integrated schools in recent times. New courses are being run every couple of months; smaller class sizes but that is no bad thing if you're a student !
When I first came out here to look around and do the aptitude tests I stayed on campus for a couple of nights and I had ample opportunity to talk openly to instructors and students. I would encourage anyone considering Jerez (or any other FTO) to do likewise.
Before people start sneering from the sidelines, apart from a PPL I haven't experienced flight training anywhere else. I too looked at various other integrated and modular training options .. at the end of the day choosing an FTO is very much about your personal circumstances.
Enough of the brown-nosing .. I just wanted to say that it has all turned out well. Change is a given and no organisation can ever plan perfectly, but life on the inside is generally good, dare I say fun even, and thus far I'm getting the quality training that I signed up for...
Many happy landings to all, whatever you decide.
George.
PS as I haven't seen it referenced here, the new website is www.flighttrainingeurope.com
Last edited by George Foreman; 25th Feb 2004 at 22:24.
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M1 Ian King's press release was on the BAE SYSTEMS site - not sure it is still there, but essentially it left the way open for a buy-back!
As to 'slaughter' that was not so much directed at you and 3W as some of the othrs who seem ever ready to go for the throat rathr than look a the facts. Like you I would prefer to see logic and clear thought than biased or plain wrong rhetoric.
Personally, I would very much like to see Jerez and Parafield continue to provide high class training, but am somewhat afraid that both may well find the market against them during the next year or two and that would be fateful for both. as you would be aware the margins at the top level of flight training are very fine, and the opportunities to constrain costs are limited - especially when the biggest single cost item is salaries.
Finally don't forget tht BAE also have Tamworth in NSW which is running a long term (10 yr) military contract.
As to 'slaughter' that was not so much directed at you and 3W as some of the othrs who seem ever ready to go for the throat rathr than look a the facts. Like you I would prefer to see logic and clear thought than biased or plain wrong rhetoric.
Personally, I would very much like to see Jerez and Parafield continue to provide high class training, but am somewhat afraid that both may well find the market against them during the next year or two and that would be fateful for both. as you would be aware the margins at the top level of flight training are very fine, and the opportunities to constrain costs are limited - especially when the biggest single cost item is salaries.
Finally don't forget tht BAE also have Tamworth in NSW which is running a long term (10 yr) military contract.
