WMU - Probably The Best Training Choice Available.
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Interesting post there Capt. Manuvar. I've not really considered Spain for modular - why there as opposed to US? I know you have to do the IR in Europe but why the CPL?
And does anyone have any idea how much a type rating costs (rough estimate will do!)? I notice there's a thread going right now on Astreus and Stratford for a combined course including 737 rating and line training for 50k. What is the general thought on that? Would it be cheaper to do modular training yourself then buy the rating with the saved capital? It seems the Stratford way, you may get a chance at a job with Astreus?
Thundercat
And does anyone have any idea how much a type rating costs (rough estimate will do!)? I notice there's a thread going right now on Astreus and Stratford for a combined course including 737 rating and line training for 50k. What is the general thought on that? Would it be cheaper to do modular training yourself then buy the rating with the saved capital? It seems the Stratford way, you may get a chance at a job with Astreus?
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I initially hadn't considered spain until quite recently. I wrongly assumed that all training in Europe was ridiculously expensive. But looking through a few of the spanish websites i realised that the costs of modular training in Spain in comparable (if not cheaper) to that of JAA schools in the US (most of whom charge exorbitant rates compared with FAA schools). A 25hr CPL in spain can go for about £2000 with a 180 euro test fee while in the US its about $4500 (£2500). Also there is no visa and antiterror BS.
Typeratings cost about £15-25k for B737/A32X (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I'm personally not a fan of buying typeratings. You need to be careful with type ratings as certain airlines(e.g. Ryanair) only accept TRs from certain organisations.
Capt. M
Typeratings cost about £15-25k for B737/A32X (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I'm personally not a fan of buying typeratings. You need to be careful with type ratings as certain airlines(e.g. Ryanair) only accept TRs from certain organisations.
Capt. M
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I would wait until after 1st July before considering WMU for a JAA course. Reason being the JAA instructor contracts are up for renewal then. However with State grants being cut and the university doing its own form of pruning (no pun intended) the outlook is not bright.
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Did my fATPL at WMU. Frank assessment:
Facilities - second to none.
Instruction - excellent, though the best JAA instructors are long gone.
Battle Creek - unexciting, but an experience!
Cost of living - probably higher than you’d imagine (car essential).
Organisation - a shambles.
Management - incompetent, arrogant, mostly ex-RAF...
Customer service - none.
Broken promises - lots.
Course cost - 20% more than I budgeted for.
If I was starting again I’d still go Integrated, but not at WMU. Don’t like being taken for a ride.
Facilities - second to none.
Instruction - excellent, though the best JAA instructors are long gone.
Battle Creek - unexciting, but an experience!
Cost of living - probably higher than you’d imagine (car essential).
Organisation - a shambles.
Management - incompetent, arrogant, mostly ex-RAF...
Customer service - none.
Broken promises - lots.
Course cost - 20% more than I budgeted for.
If I was starting again I’d still go Integrated, but not at WMU. Don’t like being taken for a ride.
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Visit
I've just posted this on the other Wannabe's forum... but then found this and decided to post here also... see below: PM me if you like...
-----------------------
Well... been out there to visit now... and really rather impressed...!
Ok... it was Very cold and can get alot colder... it was around 34'F at night and about 40'F during the day... increasing towards my return date to around 59'F. I was very lucky with the weather apparently. It was sunny, clear, and cool for the most part... and then went overcast and damp for the last couple of days.
As for the airfield, absolutely huge, the white-elephant 747 is still there and is largely unused by the college as it just doesn't assist the sylabus at all. Within 10 minutes of arrival saw a bunch of A10's take-off, that was a sight having never seen one before except on Vietnam films...
Sure yes, there have been problems with instructors. But at least the numbers there at the moment are appropriate to the number of students. The college's main selling point to me is, like Oxford, that the college is owned by Western Michigan University itself - a college with 35000 students. When you start a course there, they are bound by contract to provide the course to you and provided you put the work in and don't fail it like any other Degree course ... you will get that license and probably a job at the end of it. There was a visit by BA staff while I was there and they are still interested in taking students from there in the future (presumably when the airline sorts itself out).
They are getting rid of their full-motion simulator, and selling it to oxford I think... but they are replacing it with two Embraer simulators (excuse spelling...) as this is more in line with first aircraft types in the US when you get a job - arguably even in the UK... I know at least one Cabair student who went straight onto CRJ's. The course still has the same tried-and-successfully-tested formula that was in use with the sponsored students. There is a bit of a crisis in the US generally with people not wanting to learn to fly... this is old news. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that not many FAA students are on courses there, but there are enough for the courses to run. There is very little interest in JAA courses for May, but a good level of interest for the September course as this is after people graduate.
Martyn was very honest and answered all my worrying questions honestly and openly. I am satisfied that if I were to choose a school, I'd go here no contest. If only for the security offered in writing by WMU, who own the College of Aviation. Even if they pulled the plug, your course would run to completion.
The aircraft are in good condition, well kitted out, the airspace offers a challenge but isn't so manic that you can't learn. The weather is also a challenge as it's not always cavok! In fact, when I was there they had not had a decent series of flyable days for ages and the 3 ft of snow was evident in places! As such the flying list was absolutely chockablok...!
The area is a little flat, but I suppose that makes emergency landing practice easier! But it is pretty and Lake Michigan is huge... there is quite a bit to see and do and the area has everything you at least have around where you probably live now... i.e. cinema, loads of shops (IT, housewear, 24 hour cafe's, shops, etc)... Denny's (great breakfasts, cheap too), Bob Evans (similar to Denny's, but different menu), and some really good ale bars I was introduced to by Martyn.
It comes down to this... if you are even 10% interested in this school, give Martin Grant or Martyn Dickinson a call. In fact all the staff there were fantastic. What really surprised me was how caring they were towards past/present students! They could recall previous courses and details about what the students were doing now... and a few called to say Hi while I was meeting with Martyn. A couple of people flying for BA came over on a standby ticket for a holiday and to pop by to give an update... one was flying Airbus (presumably A319/A320's) and the other 737's... For every student who knocked on the door, they knew what they were up to and seemed to know them all as well as good friends.
To be frank, don't dwell in the past and put yourself off with past comments about WMU... many don't really apply now. Look at the school Now and make a judgement on that, and use your foresight to see where it's heading. I think the school will do very well and exceed itself.
My ticket over there with AA was £315 with the TATC, but Airline network had one for £345 I think... both including the connecting flight to Kalamazoo. Talk to them, go visit, see for yourself!
Feel free to drop me a line if anything still nags at you, but I've tried to be thorough...
-----------------------
Well... been out there to visit now... and really rather impressed...!
Ok... it was Very cold and can get alot colder... it was around 34'F at night and about 40'F during the day... increasing towards my return date to around 59'F. I was very lucky with the weather apparently. It was sunny, clear, and cool for the most part... and then went overcast and damp for the last couple of days.
As for the airfield, absolutely huge, the white-elephant 747 is still there and is largely unused by the college as it just doesn't assist the sylabus at all. Within 10 minutes of arrival saw a bunch of A10's take-off, that was a sight having never seen one before except on Vietnam films...
Sure yes, there have been problems with instructors. But at least the numbers there at the moment are appropriate to the number of students. The college's main selling point to me is, like Oxford, that the college is owned by Western Michigan University itself - a college with 35000 students. When you start a course there, they are bound by contract to provide the course to you and provided you put the work in and don't fail it like any other Degree course ... you will get that license and probably a job at the end of it. There was a visit by BA staff while I was there and they are still interested in taking students from there in the future (presumably when the airline sorts itself out).
They are getting rid of their full-motion simulator, and selling it to oxford I think... but they are replacing it with two Embraer simulators (excuse spelling...) as this is more in line with first aircraft types in the US when you get a job - arguably even in the UK... I know at least one Cabair student who went straight onto CRJ's. The course still has the same tried-and-successfully-tested formula that was in use with the sponsored students. There is a bit of a crisis in the US generally with people not wanting to learn to fly... this is old news. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that not many FAA students are on courses there, but there are enough for the courses to run. There is very little interest in JAA courses for May, but a good level of interest for the September course as this is after people graduate.
Martyn was very honest and answered all my worrying questions honestly and openly. I am satisfied that if I were to choose a school, I'd go here no contest. If only for the security offered in writing by WMU, who own the College of Aviation. Even if they pulled the plug, your course would run to completion.
The aircraft are in good condition, well kitted out, the airspace offers a challenge but isn't so manic that you can't learn. The weather is also a challenge as it's not always cavok! In fact, when I was there they had not had a decent series of flyable days for ages and the 3 ft of snow was evident in places! As such the flying list was absolutely chockablok...!
The area is a little flat, but I suppose that makes emergency landing practice easier! But it is pretty and Lake Michigan is huge... there is quite a bit to see and do and the area has everything you at least have around where you probably live now... i.e. cinema, loads of shops (IT, housewear, 24 hour cafe's, shops, etc)... Denny's (great breakfasts, cheap too), Bob Evans (similar to Denny's, but different menu), and some really good ale bars I was introduced to by Martyn.
It comes down to this... if you are even 10% interested in this school, give Martin Grant or Martyn Dickinson a call. In fact all the staff there were fantastic. What really surprised me was how caring they were towards past/present students! They could recall previous courses and details about what the students were doing now... and a few called to say Hi while I was meeting with Martyn. A couple of people flying for BA came over on a standby ticket for a holiday and to pop by to give an update... one was flying Airbus (presumably A319/A320's) and the other 737's... For every student who knocked on the door, they knew what they were up to and seemed to know them all as well as good friends.
To be frank, don't dwell in the past and put yourself off with past comments about WMU... many don't really apply now. Look at the school Now and make a judgement on that, and use your foresight to see where it's heading. I think the school will do very well and exceed itself.
My ticket over there with AA was £315 with the TATC, but Airline network had one for £345 I think... both including the connecting flight to Kalamazoo. Talk to them, go visit, see for yourself!
Feel free to drop me a line if anything still nags at you, but I've tried to be thorough...
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WMU
Gamekeeper
Just how frank is frank? - I couldn’t help noticing that in your considered opinion you assessed the facilities at WMU as ‘second to none’ The instruction ‘excellent’
However you finished up 20% over budget !!!! Hmmmm ?
I couldn’t help also noticing that you never assessed ‘student aptitude’.
I wonder how you would assess, slight whiff of “sour grapes”?
In my humble opinion Skysoarer (no relation) did the right thing - got on his bike - went and had a look - seems as though he was well cared for.
Just how frank is frank? - I couldn’t help noticing that in your considered opinion you assessed the facilities at WMU as ‘second to none’ The instruction ‘excellent’
However you finished up 20% over budget !!!! Hmmmm ?
I couldn’t help also noticing that you never assessed ‘student aptitude’.
I wonder how you would assess, slight whiff of “sour grapes”?
In my humble opinion Skysoarer (no relation) did the right thing - got on his bike - went and had a look - seems as though he was well cared for.
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..... being well cared for might worry some. Elsewhere in the forums our chum was also congratulated on his get up and go but advised to ask some searching questions on the groundschool. You know, those 14 little exams.
I'm hoping it was just the excitement of it all that prevented not a single word regarding ground school, exam teaching, current feedback and exam sittings and how long since the ground school instructors had sent candidates into 3 or more consecutive exam sittings. Look forward to part two skysoarer
I'm hoping it was just the excitement of it all that prevented not a single word regarding ground school, exam teaching, current feedback and exam sittings and how long since the ground school instructors had sent candidates into 3 or more consecutive exam sittings. Look forward to part two skysoarer
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Master Yoda
You better go visit them soon.
I heard a rumour the program at WMU has already closed down and they are just finishing up the 2 students they currently have on the course.
TTF
You better go visit them soon.
I heard a rumour the program at WMU has already closed down and they are just finishing up the 2 students they currently have on the course.
TTF
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Hi Skysoarer - sounds like you had a great visit. Just like the one I had before I signed up. And your gut feel about the place is pretty accurate - the guys you would have met are fantastic and will look after you like royalty if you do choose WMU.
A few “frank” words of caution though:
Groundschool - high success rate when they were putting BA/EPST cadets through almost every month. The CGI was very well connected with his opposite numbers at other schools and the CAA, and knew exactly what was required. Whether they still have the expertise, or the same personnel, is worth checking out.
Cash & contracts - I bet they didn’t introduce you to the accountant! That’s where the fun starts, and the reason I wouldn’t recommend the place.
Course cancellation - you’re right - they never pulled the plug on a course once it had started, even ones that became unviable (e.g. when BA pulled out on Sept 12th), but they do have a track record of cancelling courses at short notice if the take-up isn’t sufficient. We had a guy out on a visit, just like you, and no-one had the heart to break it to him that his course had already been abandoned before he’d even got on the plane. If the latest rumours have any substance.....
And Soarer - thanks for your dig about “student aptitude” - mine is fine, thank you. Completed in minimum hours and now fly jets for a Big Airline. Serious point though - if any Wannabe is contemplating an ATPL without some aptitude testing first, they’re either very brave or very rich! WMU used to insist on it. GAPAN will oblige for a modest fee. It’s worth every penny.
A few “frank” words of caution though:
Groundschool - high success rate when they were putting BA/EPST cadets through almost every month. The CGI was very well connected with his opposite numbers at other schools and the CAA, and knew exactly what was required. Whether they still have the expertise, or the same personnel, is worth checking out.
Cash & contracts - I bet they didn’t introduce you to the accountant! That’s where the fun starts, and the reason I wouldn’t recommend the place.
Course cancellation - you’re right - they never pulled the plug on a course once it had started, even ones that became unviable (e.g. when BA pulled out on Sept 12th), but they do have a track record of cancelling courses at short notice if the take-up isn’t sufficient. We had a guy out on a visit, just like you, and no-one had the heart to break it to him that his course had already been abandoned before he’d even got on the plane. If the latest rumours have any substance.....
And Soarer - thanks for your dig about “student aptitude” - mine is fine, thank you. Completed in minimum hours and now fly jets for a Big Airline. Serious point though - if any Wannabe is contemplating an ATPL without some aptitude testing first, they’re either very brave or very rich! WMU used to insist on it. GAPAN will oblige for a modest fee. It’s worth every penny.
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Is my first post, so please be gentle as I digress briefly into the modular/integrated argument.
I'm a wannabe with a few hrs under my belt, mostly UAS. I attended the recent Flyer show at Heathrow, mainly to ‘break the ice’ and start to submerge myself into the financially unforgiving world of commercial aviation. A chap from BA gave the first seminar, and I seem to remember a guy putting a question to him about whether BA would consider applicants from modular courses. Whereas many on this thread and others have said it does not matter from the employer’s point of view, he replied that BA only considered those with integrated backgrounds. Only one employer, i know, but a lot of people i've met seem to think that BA is where the sun shines from... If anyone there heard differently, and bearing in mind that at the time I was slightly less au fait with the choices and their significance and hence paid less attention to this than I would if I went tomorrow, please let me know.
Is there another s#dding industry in existence that insists on such up front financial commitment/risk while offering no guarantees – even once you’ve got a job!
Everyone seems very helpful though, i'm learning a lot from PPRuNe!
I'm a wannabe with a few hrs under my belt, mostly UAS. I attended the recent Flyer show at Heathrow, mainly to ‘break the ice’ and start to submerge myself into the financially unforgiving world of commercial aviation. A chap from BA gave the first seminar, and I seem to remember a guy putting a question to him about whether BA would consider applicants from modular courses. Whereas many on this thread and others have said it does not matter from the employer’s point of view, he replied that BA only considered those with integrated backgrounds. Only one employer, i know, but a lot of people i've met seem to think that BA is where the sun shines from... If anyone there heard differently, and bearing in mind that at the time I was slightly less au fait with the choices and their significance and hence paid less attention to this than I would if I went tomorrow, please let me know.
Is there another s#dding industry in existence that insists on such up front financial commitment/risk while offering no guarantees – even once you’ve got a job!
Everyone seems very helpful though, i'm learning a lot from PPRuNe!
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Welcome Fanois. Did I talk to you at all at the show (I'm with BCFT) ?
The straight answer is that the sun doesn't shine from BA, especially not for a low-hour pilot!
Since BA are not recruiting self-sponsored low-hour pilots, and only ever recruit a tiny number in the best of times, then if you are only aiming for a BA job then you'd be misguided to pay for your own course. Bear in mind that when they did last recruit a few straight out of the schools they were willing to accept graduates of modular schools!
Otherwise only Emirates insist on integrated for first-job pilots (FlyBE said they did, but a friend of mine was on a course with 2 modular graduates) and I have never heard of them actually employing recent graduates. Many other, more likely, employers look for hours - the 60 or so extra hours you achieve with a modular course plus anything you can pay for with the saving are, in my opinion, more likely to get you work with them than the label "integrated".
Note that although I work for a modular FTO, this is not an inter-school complaint. My first encounter with integrated/modular confusion was my annoyance that one school's marketing bunch tried to sell me a completely inappropriate integrated course in 1999 (I had 180 hours fixed-wing, including UAS time, but had no idea of the then new JAA system, so needed decent advice) instead of their own modular course. I still feel that people are being bounced into inappropriate courses by schools that could offer an option that is better for that student.
The straight answer is that the sun doesn't shine from BA, especially not for a low-hour pilot!
Since BA are not recruiting self-sponsored low-hour pilots, and only ever recruit a tiny number in the best of times, then if you are only aiming for a BA job then you'd be misguided to pay for your own course. Bear in mind that when they did last recruit a few straight out of the schools they were willing to accept graduates of modular schools!
Otherwise only Emirates insist on integrated for first-job pilots (FlyBE said they did, but a friend of mine was on a course with 2 modular graduates) and I have never heard of them actually employing recent graduates. Many other, more likely, employers look for hours - the 60 or so extra hours you achieve with a modular course plus anything you can pay for with the saving are, in my opinion, more likely to get you work with them than the label "integrated".
Note that although I work for a modular FTO, this is not an inter-school complaint. My first encounter with integrated/modular confusion was my annoyance that one school's marketing bunch tried to sell me a completely inappropriate integrated course in 1999 (I had 180 hours fixed-wing, including UAS time, but had no idea of the then new JAA system, so needed decent advice) instead of their own modular course. I still feel that people are being bounced into inappropriate courses by schools that could offer an option that is better for that student.
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Fanois,
Welcome to Pprune.
I too attended the BA seminar - a reference was made to Integrated Vs Modular, but you have to put this into context.
As I undertand it, if BA ever delve into the low hour ab-initio fATPL market, they would look exclusively to their preferred integrated course provider(s).
However, this does not preclude those with a modular background who have more experience - e.g type rated Jet, Turboprop drivers, FIs...etc. In short, low hours fATPLs are at the bottom of BA's recruitment pile and if they were ever targeted by recruiters, they would need to have done an intergrated course.
Check out this thread for more info:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=116112
Cheers,
K2
Welcome to Pprune.
I too attended the BA seminar - a reference was made to Integrated Vs Modular, but you have to put this into context.
As I undertand it, if BA ever delve into the low hour ab-initio fATPL market, they would look exclusively to their preferred integrated course provider(s).
However, this does not preclude those with a modular background who have more experience - e.g type rated Jet, Turboprop drivers, FIs...etc. In short, low hours fATPLs are at the bottom of BA's recruitment pile and if they were ever targeted by recruiters, they would need to have done an intergrated course.
Check out this thread for more info:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=116112
Cheers,
K2
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Many thanks guys, and i may well have spoken to you at the show S.C, i visited your stand early on and the guy i spoke to was the first to point out that the industry was so unforgiving!
I've flight tested the frisbee BCFT supplied in their goody bag, but may need to go for another couple circuits with it as the cross wind was way off limits!
I've flight tested the frisbee BCFT supplied in their goody bag, but may need to go for another couple circuits with it as the cross wind was way off limits!
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Thought I'd bring this topic back to page 1.
Been in touch with them, awaiting a response.
Any Brits over there at the mo training please comment on the school, I'm gonna visit them soon...
Been in touch with them, awaiting a response.
Any Brits over there at the mo training please comment on the school, I'm gonna visit them soon...
Just back from a trip stateside. Word on the Michigan streets is that WMU will not run any more JAA courses themselves but will be sub-contracting for a major UK-based FTO.
What's the latest?
What's the latest on WMU?
I've been considering this school -- somewhat gingerly with the comments about past problems -- but I've not heard anything since the above.
Their website still appears to be offering the JAA course. I have recently sent off a speculative enquiry and I am awaiting a reply.
Presumably, if they will now only be offering the JAA training on behalf of a British-based FTO, we'll be expected to pay top dollar to the UK FTO for the course and any dollar/pounds savings will end up being reaped by them and not by the student.
If anyone has heard anything with respect to either
[list=a][*]the course no longer being available, or[*]the renewal of contracts given that July 1st has been and gone[/list=a]
then please share the joy.
Thanks
Charley
I've been considering this school -- somewhat gingerly with the comments about past problems -- but I've not heard anything since the above.
Their website still appears to be offering the JAA course. I have recently sent off a speculative enquiry and I am awaiting a reply.
Presumably, if they will now only be offering the JAA training on behalf of a British-based FTO, we'll be expected to pay top dollar to the UK FTO for the course and any dollar/pounds savings will end up being reaped by them and not by the student.
If anyone has heard anything with respect to either
[list=a][*]the course no longer being available, or[*]the renewal of contracts given that July 1st has been and gone[/list=a]
then please share the joy.
Thanks
Charley
The latest buzz is that the hook-up between WMU and *** fell through and WMU will not be renewing their approval for JAA training when it expires later this year. The former WMU Standards Manager and another JAA instructor are rumoured to be moving to Arizona to become CFI and deputy CFI for OAT at Scottsdale.
There is another, less reliable rumour that other members of WMU's JAA staff are trying to set up a new FTO at Battle Creek but no JAA state will take on the approval.
There is another, less reliable rumour that other members of WMU's JAA staff are trying to set up a new FTO at Battle Creek but no JAA state will take on the approval.
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BillieBob
The two individuals rumoured to be moving to Arizona are already there. The standards guy has been there for a couple of months and the other guy for two weeks. WMU no longer offers JAA training.
The two individuals rumoured to be moving to Arizona are already there. The standards guy has been there for a couple of months and the other guy for two weeks. WMU no longer offers JAA training.