Cpl: Se Or Multi???

[CIPO]

Just want a few opinions.

Is there any benefit in doing the CPL in a multi or are you just creating more work for yourself with no significant benefit?

[topper2]

I suppose it really depends on what path you really wish to take after obtaining your Cpl. If you are happy to instruct on SEPs for a few years, then you may wish to take the ME Rating at a later date, or never at all!?

I'm also considering at this stage wether to do the full Cpl ME or just the SEP version. Eventually I want to have a twin rating, but not as urgently as the Cpl. There is a significant price difference, but I'm also aware that it may reduce my chances of passing the Cpl first time due to the increased workload, and therefore cancelling out the money I might have saved in the 1st place. (I know it sounds pessimistic, but it is a possibility).
Keeping current may also be a problem due to cost, but then again, it all goes down as valuable twin experience.

I think the main factors to consider are: Long term aims, expense and workload during the Cpl. I'm still doing my ATPL theory at the moment and hope to start the Cpl course in June 2004, so I've got 6 months to decide!

Any other views or suggestions?

[FlyingForFun]

I think Topper has hit the nail on the head - it depends on your personal circumstances.

There were a number of reasons why I went for a single-engine CPL. I only had a very short amount of time in which to do the CPL, due to getting time off work, so I needed as short a course as possible. I will almost certainly instruct for a couple of years before moving on to anything bigger. And also, if I were to get a multi-engine class rating I'd have to keep it current, which I can't really afford to do!

I'm sure there are perfectly good reasons for going for the multi-engine straight away too.

FFF
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[witchdoctor]

Unless you have the funds to continue hour building on the twins, or you have a realistic and imminent employment opportunity requiring a twin rating, I would save the cash and use it to build your SEP hours and experience to a useful level, as well as paying for any additional ratings. Presumably you intend to move onto completing the ATPL at some point, which may well open up a number of additional opportunities and then it would be worth maintaining a twin rating, but not before.

As far as workload is concerned, flying a light twin is not massively more difficult than a single. If you are at the standard where you are ready for a CPL skills test, then adjusting to a twin in terms of general handling and assymetric work should not take more than a few trips. The difficulty comes with the additional speed, which will quickly overload you if you are not planning far enough ahead. I would avoid this extra and unneccesary pressure unless you are extremely confident that you are more than ready for the test in a single.

Otherwise, good luck and happy job hunting.

[FlyingForFun]

Question:

The ATPL exam credits remain valid for the purposes of the issue of an ATPL for 7 years from the date of your last IR renewal. Does that apply even if the IR is restricted to single-engine?

I've read the relevant section of LASORS several times, and it doesn't mention anything about the number of engines on the IR. I take that to mean that a single-engine IR is fine for keeping the exam credits alive - but I've never actually seen that explicitly stated anywhere.

FFF
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[CIPO]

Thanks guys,

I was just wondering whether a multi CPL will impress the airlines more. I already have a multi rating and 25hrs on type and will be doing the 15hr course after my multi IR which I start on Jan 5th.
I intend to start the job searching in March.

[FlyingForFun]

CIPO,

I may be wrong on this one... but this is how I understand it.

There is no such thing as a single-engine CPL or a multi-engine CPL. It's just a CPL. You can then have either a single-engine class rating, or a multi-engine class rating, or both (as well as lots of other types of rating) added to that.

What many people decide to do is to combine their CPL skills test with their multi-engine class rating test. This is colloquially called a multi-engine CPL - but there is actually no such thing.

Since you already have a multi-engine class rating, you can't really do the test for this again. So your skills test will simply be a CPL skills test, regardless of what class of aircraft you do it in. Hence, no benefit at all in doing it in a multi, except for maintaining your multi currency.

I think.

FFF
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[Arrowhead]

FFF has it right in terms of multi rating and CPL licence. You can use some of the CPL mandatory training hours to do your multi training, and take both tests at once... but you will probably have enough stress getting it right on a single engine, than worrying about multi-issues too.

Comments about why do you want multi rating are also valid.

FYI I just completed CPL on single, and am now doing multi rating. Will then do some hour building on the multi to nail it down.

[Tinstaafl]

If CIPO trained in the USA then that would account for a possible perception about separate s/e & m/e CPLs. That's exactly what the US has for all their fixed wing licences. More actually, because there's also a land & sea divide making essentially four categories for each level of licence. That makes 4 PPLs, 4 CPLs, 4 ATPs. I'm ignoring gliders, rotorcraft etc. but they all add to the number of licences for each level too.

UK/JAR & Oz treat the levels as the sole divisions, the privileges of which are available on any a/c one may fly. There is also a separation of licences is between rotor, fixed wing, glider, balloon etc.

It's an interesting philosophical split between systems and leads to some odd mixes of privileges & limitations. As an example for me over the years:

Oz:

PPL + Night VFR rating. No multi endorsement, no IR
Can fly s/e aircraft by day & night in private ops. Can't fly a multi or IFR

CPL + Night VFR. No multi, no IR
Same priviliges as before but now includes aerial work, charter & public transport ops. NVFR rating is not permitted for charter/public transport but OK for aerial work. Still no multi or IFR allowed

CPL + NVFR + multi:
As before but now allowed to use a multi as well. Note: Oz requires a separate endorsement for each multi type.

CPL + NVFR + multi + IR
As before but now includes ops under IFR (single or multi) AND the IR allows NVFR for charter/pub transport.

Get FAA ATP MEL:
Can fly private & commercial/air transport ops but only in a multi. IFR allowed because the ATP includes IR privileges. Not allowed to fly m/e floatplanes nor any single at all.

To gain single &/or floatplanes would require certificate (read 'licence') for each of those variations ie s/e land, s/e sea, m/e sea. I could do the test(s) at any level ie PPL/CPL/ATP and would be limited to the privileges associated with that level in that class of a/c.


Get UK ATPL/IR in a multi
Can fly multi VFR & IFR in private/aerial work/pub transport ops. Not allowed fly singles.

If I got checked in a single then my ATPL/IR privileges would be extended onto the single. If my IR lapse I can fly IFR OCTA still but not in IMC. Might still have a UK IMC rating???


It gets a bit convoluted at times....

[MorningGlory]

Do it SEP, and therefore as cheaply as possible, as the airlines couldn't give a hoot about a cpl passed in a multi.

[Julian]

I did my CPL in the multi but for personal reasons. The school I use requires that to take their multi solo you have to have 25hrs dual with one of THEIR instructors or 50 hrs total multi time, I have heard a rumour that they are going to increase this to 100hrs TT.

I decided it would be better to knock the multi and CPL requirements on the head in one go rather than having to pay for an extra 25hrs at a later date to be able to take the aircraft away.

[Arrowhead]

Okay now that I have completed the CPL (single) and am about to take the multi, I think I probably made a mistake.

You can take both tests at the same time. The multi will count towards the 15 hours of non-instrument time, which you can complete on a cheaper PA28. The multi rating requires you to perform all of the same manoeuvres as in the CPL except basic Nav and instruments which is simple enough. Plus the multi is more stable and arguably easier to fly more precisely.

So if you are doing both, personally I would combine the two. I wish I had not logged an extra 10 hours or so in PA28s when I didnt really need to.

Your choice.

[FougaMagister]

Arrowhead - not quite true; if you do your CPL skill test on a multi, it will be combined with the MEP(L) skill test and you will not have to do glide approaches or practiced forced landings, but you will be tested on single-engine work, EFATO, etc. The CPL is enough of a workout as it is!

Ultimately, it all depends on each applicant's circumstances: if the money is not too scarce and you are planning to go for the IR right after the CPL, then it makes sense to "combine" MEP(L) and CPL (but, again, beware of the workload). You will also get extra twin hours. Some FTOs (BAE Systems, Leeds Flying School) do it that way (in BAE Systems' case it's also because they don't have SE complex a/c).

If, on the other hand, you want to spread the cost of your training over a longer period (or possibly work initially as a Flight instructor), then doing CPL on an SE a/c would make more sense.

Cheers

[TRon]

If you are doing an IR after your ME/CPL then it is quite useful in terms of pratice for the Assymetric Circuits on the IR. I personally didn't like the sound of the single engine CPL, sounded harder than the Multi engine one with all the PFL's, emergencies etc.

You get longer legs on nav and diversion as the aircraft is faster, but only about 20kts and the Seneca certainly is far easier to nav with, as you have a fantastic view out of the window and cruises 2 degrees nose down.

All in all, I would say they are similar. Having two engines isn't really that much harder as you are always moving the wiggly bits at the same time as each other and Assymetric, as long as you are disciplined, I would say is easier than PFL's and all the emergencies thrown at you.

[carbonfibre]

SEP or MEP Commercial

I completed my CPL in a single, was very tough time but was in a complex turbo arrow, which while very stable, dropped like a brick when you drop the flaps and undercarraige and had to monitored very carefully and you had to be accurate with glides and stuff, if you are dedicated and can handle the workload go for the multi

Be aware of the extra costs if you go above minimum hours which is always likely

Have fun

[englishal]

Here's a thought....

Assuming you want a JAA CPL....Go get the JAA SE CPL, then get an FAA PPL issued on the basis of your JAA licence. Add an FAA ME rating on, for around $200 per hour and 10 hrs. You can now fly ME aircraft in the US AND the UK at private level. When you want the CPL ME in the UK, you'll be proficient in ME procedures by virtue of the FAA ticket, which remains valid for 2 years and is "re-validated" by a simple BFR.

Cheers
EA

[FougaMagister]

That's a good idea, however, you must know that in case you look for work on the Continent in the future, some local aviation authorities will not recognise a JAA CPL/IR issued through validation of an FAA licence

Cheers