Is it worth doing an IMC before CPL/IR
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Is it worth doing an IMC before CPL/IR
I am about to head out to Naples Air Center to finish my PPL, my night rating and an hour build. I then have the option of doing an IMC. I have been told that it is not necessary as i am coming back to the UK and completing my ATPL groundschool, my CPL and my IR at the EPTA in Bournemouth. THe IMC is around $2500 but as we are all aware the idea is to try to keep costs down!!
I feel it would be worth it as it would give me a good background for the IR but it is more expense. Any prior experience and opinions would be welcome,
Surfer
I feel it would be worth it as it would give me a good background for the IR but it is more expense. Any prior experience and opinions would be welcome,
Surfer
Join Date: Jun 2000
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I think so - if only because flying with an instructor will brush up your skills prior to your CPL, and the IMC instructor is likely to be considerably cheaper than the CPL instructor !
Join Date: Jun 2002
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IMC
Expedite
I am in favour of people doing the IMC as gives good basic instrument techniques.
HWD i disagree with you on this one, its not just the complex that will get them on the CPL its the instruments with the complex type that will screw them up. Thats why most schools have now gone from the 20 hours basic and 5 complex to 15 basic and 10 complex because the conversion time on instruments, speed, procedures etc.
I have to say that if you do your CPL first then forget the IMC spend a little time with a good instructor in US and do 5 hours good quality instrument handling and VOR tracking, let your CPL instructor go through the NDB.
If as some people, you do go for the IR first, then i would do the IMC, i have recently started my IR and people who have not done the CPL or do not have an IMC are really struggling, and this is the general feeling of many instructors i talk to, most are spending at least an extra 3-4 in the sim and upto 5 in aircraft before 170A, thats a lot of money, considerably more than an IMC, and if you base the cost of lets say£125 IMC instruction as opposed to £300+ on the IR it soon pays.
So dont do it if CPL first but if you intend IR first i would strongly
recommend it
Hope this helps
I am in favour of people doing the IMC as gives good basic instrument techniques.
HWD i disagree with you on this one, its not just the complex that will get them on the CPL its the instruments with the complex type that will screw them up. Thats why most schools have now gone from the 20 hours basic and 5 complex to 15 basic and 10 complex because the conversion time on instruments, speed, procedures etc.
I have to say that if you do your CPL first then forget the IMC spend a little time with a good instructor in US and do 5 hours good quality instrument handling and VOR tracking, let your CPL instructor go through the NDB.
If as some people, you do go for the IR first, then i would do the IMC, i have recently started my IR and people who have not done the CPL or do not have an IMC are really struggling, and this is the general feeling of many instructors i talk to, most are spending at least an extra 3-4 in the sim and upto 5 in aircraft before 170A, thats a lot of money, considerably more than an IMC, and if you base the cost of lets say£125 IMC instruction as opposed to £300+ on the IR it soon pays.
So dont do it if CPL first but if you intend IR first i would strongly
recommend it
Hope this helps
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Completely agree with High Wing drifter,
The only good an IMC rating will do to your CPL test is to help you with tracking a VOR, wich is easy peasy in comparison to what is asked during the IR.
However I suspect that the IMC will give you the bad habit to scan your instrument instead of keeping a good look-out !
The examiner I got during my CPL test mentioned several times before the test that I should keep a good look out. What he/she wants to see is the safe operation of a commercial flight during VMC operations. look out = good traffic separation = safety. I insist on that as he failed 3 of my mates who didn't follow what he said or failed to understand the importance of it. With that in mind an IMC is pretty useless. And it will cost you more dosh. I didn't have my IMC prior the I/R but I still passed it ! Superfly
The only good an IMC rating will do to your CPL test is to help you with tracking a VOR, wich is easy peasy in comparison to what is asked during the IR.
However I suspect that the IMC will give you the bad habit to scan your instrument instead of keeping a good look-out !
The examiner I got during my CPL test mentioned several times before the test that I should keep a good look out. What he/she wants to see is the safe operation of a commercial flight during VMC operations. look out = good traffic separation = safety. I insist on that as he failed 3 of my mates who didn't follow what he said or failed to understand the importance of it. With that in mind an IMC is pretty useless. And it will cost you more dosh. I didn't have my IMC prior the I/R but I still passed it ! Superfly
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What I mean is general airmanship. By the time you reach 150hrs you are likely to have a few bad habits.
I suppose I think back to mine which was a pre radio nav ppl..... It depends how well you are taught ndb/vor in your ppl.
I suppose I think back to mine which was a pre radio nav ppl..... It depends how well you are taught ndb/vor in your ppl.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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As I said on the other recent thread, I think the IMC is a good thing, but only if you have to build hours anyway. The extra cost of an instructor (on top of the cost of hiring the aircraft for hour-building) is really quite small.
Very interesting point about encouraging head-in flying and the problems this could cause on a CPL. I'll let you know in a few months time whether it affected my CPL or not. I'd hope not - although the fact that the main aircraft that I fly is not equipped for IMC flight, and so I still get plenty of practice at looking outside, may help me in this respect (even if it causes different problems remaining current in IMC flying).
Last month, I had a couple of lessons in a Tiger Moth (you can read about them on Private Flying if you look for them - I'd post a link except I don't have time right now). The reason I did this was because I wanted to do it, it sounded like fun (and it was fun!) But if you find yourself flying head-in, it might well be a useful experience, as well as being fun. It's very hard to fly head-in in an aircraft with so few instruments that there's not very much to look at inside - so it should get your head outside the aircraft again pretty quickly!
FFF
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Very interesting point about encouraging head-in flying and the problems this could cause on a CPL. I'll let you know in a few months time whether it affected my CPL or not. I'd hope not - although the fact that the main aircraft that I fly is not equipped for IMC flight, and so I still get plenty of practice at looking outside, may help me in this respect (even if it causes different problems remaining current in IMC flying).
Last month, I had a couple of lessons in a Tiger Moth (you can read about them on Private Flying if you look for them - I'd post a link except I don't have time right now). The reason I did this was because I wanted to do it, it sounded like fun (and it was fun!) But if you find yourself flying head-in, it might well be a useful experience, as well as being fun. It's very hard to fly head-in in an aircraft with so few instruments that there's not very much to look at inside - so it should get your head outside the aircraft again pretty quickly!
FFF
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... I also heard that you could pick up some bad habits during the IMC course (above all if the instructor is not a real expert at instrument flying), so maybe not worth doing a 15+ hour course (about £2000 with test...) to pick up bad habits for the IR. Just let an IR instructor (who is an expert) do the job. The CPL instrument flying is mainly about full panel and limited panel, so you do not really need a full IMC rating to do that....Do a couple of hours with an instructor to show you a few tricks, and then do your CPL as normal....
Just my opinion... I myself considered doing an IMC, but at the end of the day, I do not think I will....
All the best...
Cheers
Just my opinion... I myself considered doing an IMC, but at the end of the day, I do not think I will....
All the best...
Cheers
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IMC the best way to start the IR
I found the IMC to be the best way to start I.F. and without a doubt the best start that I coud have had towards the IR.
It gave me all the building blocks that I needed for the IR and then let me go out and practice in real IMC doing real aproaches before I got to spending the big bucks on IR instruction.
It would be interesting to know how much of the advice above comes from IR holders and how much is from people who aspire to holding an IR.
It gave me all the building blocks that I needed for the IR and then let me go out and practice in real IMC doing real aproaches before I got to spending the big bucks on IR instruction.
It would be interesting to know how much of the advice above comes from IR holders and how much is from people who aspire to holding an IR.
