Spin Training.
 

There doesn't seem to be any up to date threads on this one, so I have a few questions.

As a freshly minted PPL (I'm still waiting for my Licence) I am determined to do some Spin Training as I see it as more or less "mandatory" to help make me a safer and better pilot - to me it's the aviation equivalent of skid training in a car after first getting your driving licence.

I have received the following advice so far:

"Wait until you have a few more hours under your belt and then you will derive more benefit from the training as you will be more experienced."

My view is that it's never too early and this is a good time whilst I'm still in training mode.

"It's a waste of time. Most spins occur under 1000ft - with this altitude, you'll never recover in time anyway."

Well, maybe that's true but I'd prefer to at least have the skills to go down trying.

"More pilots were injured during spin training than actual incidents - why bother, it's dangerous!"

Well, is it? It seems to me that at some stage a pilot should do some spinning but I don't know how "dangerous" it is.

"Spinning is great fun!"

Is it? I hope so although I think that to begin with I'm going to be scared silly!

"Spinning is horrible, you'll hate it!"

Is it? I may hate it but is it still worth it?


As you can tell, I'm convinced that it is a good idea but I'm interested in opinions from more experienced pilots as to when, what and where I should do the training.

Over to you guys/gals.

Senna Dog

The comments that you quoted in your post are, each and every one of them, utter horse**** other than the "Spinning is great fun", IMHO of course...

Consider that spinning used to be in the syllabus for a PPL - at least in NZ and, I believe in the UK although I am not entirely sure about that.

You now have your PPL and looking to improve various aspects of your flying skills and repertoire. Learning to spin an aeroplane safely not only will teach you how to recover should you ever enter a spin inadvertently, but is also an intelligent precursor to starting aerobatics, should you be interested in that.

Even if you don't particularly like it, spin training will never be detrimental to your flying skills and it may awaken your interest in a different type of flying.

Enjoy.

Couple of threads I remember: here and here

Cheers Evo.

This leads me on to my next question. For the immediate future I am probably only going to fly Katanas and C-172s. Should I be looking for an aircraft that handles/spins in a similar way to either of these two or does it not matter?

In the UK, Katanas are not rated for spinning and I'm not sure about the C-172 so I guess the closest would be a C-152 but this has a high wing as opposed to the low wing of the Katana - does this make any difference?

Sennadog

At your stage of experience, one thing that I would recommend is having some extra lessons with an instructor based on handling at low speeds and in various configurations.

I'm not trying to put you off spin training, but I was lucky enough to receive a couple of hours training on slow speed handling and it is was very valuable.

I remember flying a Warrior at 45KIAS (must have been some position error I reckon), with full flaps and being able to control it easily despite the ridiculous pitch angle and the stall warning going beserk.

Although we all learn slow speed handling early in the PPL, looking again post PPL is good, as you will "feel" much more now that before.

I started flying out of grass strips some time afterwards and knowing that I could fly accurately at VS1.3 on short final was a big help - directly due to the training I had.

Cheers F3G

Final 3 Greens .

Good advice, I actually had another lesson yesterday and that was one of the things that we did. It's amazing how much more relaxed I was and my flying was much better as a consequence which must be due to some of the pressure being off I suppose.

sennadog

From what I have heard, spinning training used to be compulsory for the UK PPL, & I believe that it had to be done BEFORE the first solo. The CAA withdrew this requirement about 12-15 years ago, firstly because the spin training at this early stage, was considered too dangerous. Secondly too many students were being totally put off flying. No doubt one of the old-timers can confirm or correct this.

Whilst training for my PPL, I was always hearing about the perils of inadvertant spins, & that made my nervous. So, once I had got my licence, I was very keen to get the whole think clear in my mind, by trying spinning. The first aircraft I went spinning in was an aged C150 Aerobat. The first spin, was demonstarted by the instructor & was terrifying, but only because I was infamiliar with how an aircraft behaved, when being forced into a spin. Once I had had a go, & found just how easy it was to get a C150, out of a spin... I thought "well that was fun" :) . When can I try it again?

Since then I have been spinning in a Bulldog Pup & a Citabria. All 3 of these types, are supposed to be easy to spin & more importantly to recover from spins. The easiest was probably the C150. It always gave me the impression, that even if you screamed & let go of all the controls, it would still waffle inself out of the spin. (BUT please don't try this at home :D ). For a first spinning lesson, I would choose a docile spinning aircraft, such as C150/C152 & an instructor, who you really trust.

So, sennadog, my advice would be the same as it was for me. Go & get it out of your system. For me, it got over all my fears of inadvertant spins, & its FUN FUN FUN :cool:

I'll have to find an instructor that I trust then. Unfortunately, there are no aircraft at my Club that are suitable for spinning and the instructor who has been recommended to me is now on holiday!

Needless to say, I'm impatient and don't want to wait and looking at the weather outside I want to do it NOW!:D

Why can't I get involved with pastimes that are not expensive?:confused:

Champagne tastes, beer income!:mad:

I was spun in a C152 as part of my PPL. It wasn't part of the syllabus but my instructor likes aeros so who was I to stop him.

The first one was terrifying, but from then one it got easier. The worst part was the waiting, knowing that this flight was the one when we would do the dreaded SPINS!!

Do it, it will be good experience.

A little bit off topic, but.............Anyone see 'A plane is born'? on Discovery? I remember one episode when he (can't remember his name...the manic bloke) did some spin training. I was surprised to see he was spinning an Archer II (or Warrior II). I thought that neither of these was certified for intentional spinning...?

Cheers
EA:)

englishal

Yes, I have seen various aircraft being spun, or doing aerobatics, that are not certified for it. I am not sure of the legalities. Is it an offence under the ANO or whatever?

I remember discussing this with an experienced engineer. His answer was that there are a lot of light aircraft that are not certified for spinning, but this is not for the obvious reasons, such as the airframe would be overstressed, or the wings drop off etc.

The reason is, that they will spin very well, with no harm to the airframe, BUT, they are extremely difficult to get out of a spin :(

sennadog,

I believe you may be at Redhill. If so, There's an Aerobat for hire here and I think they can sort out an instructor too.

The guy off the Telly was Mark Evans. I am looking forward to his new program "A Chopper Is Born" that is starting this month.

I did spins after about 6 hours. Probably not the best time for most students but I found them enjoyable.

Hopefully I will be instructing by early next year so I may get to do them regularly.

It has already started! The final set of episodes is on Discovery Home & Leisure this coming Tuesday.

If it's anthing like 'A Plane Is Born' (or 'A Car Is Born' for that matter) there'll be no shortage of repeats though!

FS,

You are dead right there. I have a Tivo box and I work away all week. The program is repeated about 10 times a week and it fills up the hard disk.

It is still very good though.

Sennadog,

Have you thought about an aerobatics course. Not only will you get plenty of spins, but flight into and recoveries from unusual attitudes will be very useful. Moreover, you should have a parachute and the aircraft will probably have the facility for jettisoning doors etc (remember even the very best pilots get it wrong sometimes). Plus some of the more exotic aero types require a totally correct recovery technique - again good practice. - Maybe even get a taildragger rating out of it at the same time. (

Alternatively, try your local gliding club. I think that the BGA syllabus still requires proper spin training and I'm sure someone on staff would oblidge.

Englishal, Warriors, Cadets & Archers are not cleared for intentional spinning, but I seem to recall the old Cherokee 140's are. Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm way off.


Father Mulcahy

Spin training is certainly a good idea, and is nothing to be feared.

I don't know why spins were removed from the PPL(A) flight test, as it is good fun and not particularly difficult.

I don't agree that it's a waste of time because most spins happen too low to recover. Intentional spinning is also a relatively safe way to get down through an overcast if you are ever caught 'on top' (although you need to ensure that the ceiling ends a reasonable distance above the ground, obviously).

I confess that I have never spun a 172 (deliberately or otherwise :D), but my copy of the POH for the 172N indicates that "intentional spins are approved in this airplane within certain restrictions".

No real need for a heavy session at the books, but if you want to do some reading as part of your training two references that you might find helpful are:

(1) Sammy Mason, "Stalls, Spins, and Safety" (McGraw-Hill, 1982);
(2) Dunstan Hadley, "Only Seconds to Live: Pilots' Tales of the Stall and the Spin" (Airlife, 1997)

Have fun,

MLS-12D:)

P.S. Distaff is right, the 150/152 will usually come out of a spin on its own given half a chance; much like a Schweizer 2-33. I don't recommend the 150/152 because it is not easy to provoke into a spin and unless you know what you are doing you often wind up in a spiral dive, which wastes time and may leave you with a false impression of what a spin looks/feels like. I'd suggest a Piper Tomahawk for your spin training.

Like Who Has Control I did spinning as part of my PPL training, even though it wasn't part of the syllabus. I only had about 5 hours experience though, and was still a bit nervous. Fortunately my instructor didn't warn me in advance, so I couldn't worry about it! I'd like to do a bit more too, although I'm not quite ready for full-blown aerobatics :eek:

I believe that part of the certification process to allow an aircraft to be certified for intentional spinning, is that it will recover itself within a reasonable time, with no pilot input, assuming C&G and W&B limits are correct.

A 172 is certified in the Utility cat, though for someone like me, 6'1" weighing a good few Kg, I calculated I can only carry about 10 Gals of fuel :-) (or a very small passenger)

Cheers
EA;)

I've done some spinning and it was really good fun.
I think it is definitely worthwhile because it gives you confidence as you know even if you lose control you'll be able to recover (given height). It's not enough to just be told how, you have to do it for yourself.

Most unintentional spins do occur low down but that's no reason to not bother taking precautions as many planes could be recovered if they spun from under a 1000ft. You might as well give yourself a chance.

By the way some of you mentioned that more people are killed in spin training than in actual spins. I find this hard to believe. What time period does that cover?

sennadog

I think we've conversed on this topic... I actually did a couple of spins during the stalling/slow flight stage of my training (with an experienced instructor I trust sitting next to me, of course!) and they ARE fun and I DO want to do an aeros rating as soon as I can (providing I can keep The Bird in the dark - she's NOT keen).

Anything you can master that helps you're overall skill and control of the a/c has to be a good idea, I would think.

Hersh

Hi folks!

Lets start debunking some myths eh?...

Spinning *is* in the UK PPL & JAR PPL & UK NPPL Syllabus. Always has been always will be.

Ex 11A Spin Avoidance - Incipient spin recovery - IS MANDATORY. If you have NOT received this training then your club has been negligent.

Ex11B Fully developed spins - are OPTIONAL under UK PPL, UK NPPL & JAR PPL. But none the less its STILL in the syllabus.

The reason this became optional was partly due to accidents and partly due to not all organisations having aircraft which were cleared for spinning.

Mark Evans flew from Aeros at Gloucester. The aircraft is a PA28 Cherokee 140 G-SCPL. The aircraft is cleared for spinning - it is another myth that *all* PA28s are not cleared for spinning - some *are*. I did my PPL spinning in it and 7 spins later came down for some tea... :)

Hope this helps.

On the new Cirrus, the spin recovery technique is to deploy the ballistic chute !.

So consider yourself fully trained in spinning the Cirrus SR22. Not that they'd probably let you lose on $350.000 worth of plastic aeroplane, but you could ask ;)

Hersham Boy , yes mate we have but unfortunately your man is away on holiday and as always I'm impatient!:D

FormationFlyer , it's Ex.11b that I'm after. Does anyone know why the Katana is not certified for spinning in the UK and yet (I believe I'm correct in saying) it is in the US?

Father Mulcahy

The PA28-140 is cleared for spinning in the utility category, but the Warrior, Cadet and Archer are not.

The latter are developments of the former, wihth a different wing and modified fuselage and their aerodynamic characteristics can allegedly result in a flat spin with far rear C of G.

Not sure how much product liability issues in the US impact on this decision though!

Cirrus SR22 Parachute
 

I have read about this & seen it on TV. (sorry folks .... off topic again!)

BUT, what I would like to know is, at what stage to you decide that you can do nothing further, as the pilot, & that it is preferable to leave you fate to a parachute, that is presumably unsteerable?

I can understand ejecting, wearing a parachute, from a doomed aircraft, but I can't imagine pulling the lever for the chute, on the back of the Cirrus.

Is this as much a matter for HPL, as flying skills? :confused:

MLS-12D, remind me never to fly with you.

Last-Ditch Option Only
 

Hi Whipper,

I am not suggesting that anyone deliberately spin into the overcast for fun.

Good planning should ensure that a VFR pilot never gets 'caught on top' to begin with. But if that ever happens, a spin is a stabilized, low-G, controlled manuever that will bring the aircraft down in one piece.

PROVIDED that there is adequate altitude for a recovery under the ceiling, a spin through the overcast is far safer than trying to let down on instruments (assuming that one is not trained and current on instrument flight, of course). As study after study has shown, the VFR pilot in IMC will invariably let the aircraft fall into a spiral dive and more than likely rip the wings and/or tail off ... not my idea of fun.

This is not a pleasant subject but I don't see that it is any less real a concern than inadvertantly spinning in.

MLS-12D

sennadog,

You should definitely do some full spins, as you will then recognise one if you should ever inadvertently get into one.

I did a fair few spins in gliders - definitely part of mandatory pre-solo training - and while I can't say I really enjoyed doing them, I didn't think it was too bad.

I think that one should be able to recover a spin in 1000' - most often the problem is recognizing that it is a spin and doing the right things to correct it in time. "Stick and Rudder" has a very readable section on this.

The more you practice, the more instinctive the recovery technique becomes.

I'm certainly glad that I have full spin recovery experience, albeit in gliders, cos I've only flown Warriors.

SD

MLS, what you say is perfectly correct, but a less dramatic way of getting down through cloud if you have allowed yourself to get into this situation and you have no instrument training of significance is to trim the a/c in a glide, fold your arms, and keep (1) the DI on a constant heading, (2) the turn needle or indicator showing no turn, or keep the horizon level using your feet only! Try it, it works, and years ago an ex stu of mine thanked me for saving his life when he got into such a situation. (Yes I know, I should have taught him better)

SAAB

Recognising the incipient spin and stopping it developing low down is a good thing - i.e. ex11a.

I doubt that many typical PPLs (myself included) would have much chance once the spin was fully developed, since a typical loss per rotation must be 5-600 feet depending on type.

Croqueteer,

I agree, your method would work and would certainly be the preferred option if there was any doubt as to whether the ceiling was high enough to permit a recovery.

The spin technique is primarily for wave soaring when the 'window' closes below you; usually (!) no ceiling difficulties in such situations.

MLS-12D

MLS

I think I read a "I learned about flying from that" years ago, where a pilot spun through cloud in South America, only to find himself in a volcano crater!

Katana spins
 

Sennadog,

I've been thinking about getting some spin training too with a CFI. I learnt in a Katana and have subsequently moved to 172s.
According to my Katana DA-20A1 POH reprint, which appears to cover the Transport Canada certified version, the Katana can be spun. It has the following cautions:

"Intentional spinngin is only permitted with flaps in UP position"

"Depending on CG and spin entry technique, attempts to enter spins may develop into spiral dives. Monitor the airspeed during the first turn and recover immediately if it increases to 70KIAS."

"Spins with aft CG may oscllate in yaw rate and pitch attitude. This has no effect on recovery procedure or recovery time."

Note that by stating the above, I am not advocating that you spin the Katana you have access to if it is spinning is prohibited in your region.

BayAreaLondoner . Yes, I read that too in the POH but for some reason, the CAA (I believe) haven't certified the Katana in the UK, hence my question.

I just wondered why that was the case if it's possible in the US.:confused:

To spin or not to spin
 

Sennadog
I guess this has to be a matter of choice. Distaff asks for old timers to confirm that spinning used to be part of the manadatory training for the PPL. Fortunately I just fall outside of her classification as spin training for PPLS was removed just before I took my PPL about 14 years ago (it could have been 13 or 15 as age muddles the brain!). Despite not being a requirement I allowed my instructor to show me how to spin a C150 Aerobat and it was great. (not the same instructor who insisted on showing me how to loop in the circuit who was a couple of blades short of a full prop!).
Now spin the delightful Chipmunk and cant see what the fuss is about.

I tend to fly aircraft through a broad envelope when positioning for interesting photo shots and it is interesting to see how often owners have never got near the edges of their aircrafts operating limits. Nothing wrong with this but should they get in to such a position they won't have much of an idea what to do. Even if you don't go out for aeros I reckon some unusual attitude, spin, and semi aero manouvring would be very enlightening and enjoyable but don't say I told you so if you happent o feel a little sickly first time out.

Senna,

I don't believe that spin training should be mandatory, but congratulate you on wanting to improve your ab-initio trg with a lesson on spins.

My only concern is that the C150Aerobat does not spin very well and is often flicked into the spin, not the gentlest of entries and you may find that off-putting.

If funds allow I'd suggest that you start with competition type entries in a 2 seat aerobatic mount.

I spin a lot but every so often a " rogue" spin has me over rotating and not exiting on my chosen line. A 2 turn spin in the Pitts takes 1100' and the first turn really is only the entry, if I do 3 or 4 turns it really starts to wind up but will exit just as quickly.

In-spin/out-spin aileron and throttle settings all make it behave VERY differently and if flicked into the spin it will wind up far more rapidly, too.

Enjoy.


Stik

Full spinning AND demonstratring your ability recover satisfactorially did used to be a compulsory part of the CAA PPL. I did mine back in 1982 and spent a stomach churning 90 minutes watching the Norfolk countryside rotate in front of me.

Having revalidated in recent times and only had to demonstrate "an awareness of and abillity to recover from" incipient spinds, I can assure you they are nothing to the real Mc'Coy!

Brings back full spins - valuable experience at the very least.

For info aircraft was a Tomahawk.

Don't like the idea of being an old-timer .... but I got my PPL (the first time) in 1966. Yes, spins were part of the syllabus, then, we used C150's (one of which I recently saw a picture of in Today's Pilot, still flying!).

Doing your first solo spin was a very nerve-wracking event. Mine ended up in the predictable spiral dive, as I was too windy to do the manoeuvre properly. Finally managed two real spins on my own, though. The C150 will recover itself pretty easily, just by centralising the controls. You have to hold it in the spin to get several rotations.

However, some time later, during some refresher flying (following a year's absence), we tried a spin, and the instructor went white faced and shoved the nose down, saying I had nearly put us into an inverted spin, which was not recoverable. A sobering thought, and I still don't understand the difference - maybe someone here will enlighten me?.

I regained the PPL only recently, spin and stall training was part of the conditions. No instructor was prepared to do spins though - something which surprised me greatly.

Bottom line ... find an instructor who knows what he's doing, and learn them properly. They are not difficult and can be fun - however if you don't do them right, they can get you into trouble.

Hmm... Maybe the instructor was commenting on a specific type with bad inverted characteristics...but inverted spins, flat spins and flat inverted spins and accelerated spins are generally ALL recoverable....

Check out a book called 'Spin Management & Recovery' by Michael C Love - an excellent book that covers ALL forms of spins...very very informative.

With regard to spinning down through cloud - you must be a idiot to do that. In the PA28 reduce the throttle to idle, select full flap, and trim aft FULLY to keep the nose up....and let go of the controls...suprisingly it enters a very mild and gentle spiral and leaves HUGE amount of time for recovery at the bottom at normal speeds in a sensible flight attitude....very enlightning when I was first shown this... (we were discussing descent thru cloud with NO instruments...i.e. ASI/ALT only...)