Spin Training.
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Spin Training.
There doesn't seem to be any up to date threads on this one, so I have a few questions.
As a freshly minted PPL (I'm still waiting for my Licence) I am determined to do some Spin Training as I see it as more or less "mandatory" to help make me a safer and better pilot - to me it's the aviation equivalent of skid training in a car after first getting your driving licence.
I have received the following advice so far:
"Wait until you have a few more hours under your belt and then you will derive more benefit from the training as you will be more experienced."
My view is that it's never too early and this is a good time whilst I'm still in training mode.
"It's a waste of time. Most spins occur under 1000ft - with this altitude, you'll never recover in time anyway."
Well, maybe that's true but I'd prefer to at least have the skills to go down trying.
"More pilots were injured during spin training than actual incidents - why bother, it's dangerous!"
Well, is it? It seems to me that at some stage a pilot should do some spinning but I don't know how "dangerous" it is.
"Spinning is great fun!"
Is it? I hope so although I think that to begin with I'm going to be scared silly!
"Spinning is horrible, you'll hate it!"
Is it? I may hate it but is it still worth it?
As you can tell, I'm convinced that it is a good idea but I'm interested in opinions from more experienced pilots as to when, what and where I should do the training.
Over to you guys/gals.
As a freshly minted PPL (I'm still waiting for my Licence) I am determined to do some Spin Training as I see it as more or less "mandatory" to help make me a safer and better pilot - to me it's the aviation equivalent of skid training in a car after first getting your driving licence.
I have received the following advice so far:
"Wait until you have a few more hours under your belt and then you will derive more benefit from the training as you will be more experienced."
My view is that it's never too early and this is a good time whilst I'm still in training mode.
"It's a waste of time. Most spins occur under 1000ft - with this altitude, you'll never recover in time anyway."
Well, maybe that's true but I'd prefer to at least have the skills to go down trying.
"More pilots were injured during spin training than actual incidents - why bother, it's dangerous!"
Well, is it? It seems to me that at some stage a pilot should do some spinning but I don't know how "dangerous" it is.
"Spinning is great fun!"
Is it? I hope so although I think that to begin with I'm going to be scared silly!
"Spinning is horrible, you'll hate it!"
Is it? I may hate it but is it still worth it?
As you can tell, I'm convinced that it is a good idea but I'm interested in opinions from more experienced pilots as to when, what and where I should do the training.
Over to you guys/gals.
Last edited by sennadog; 26th Jul 2002 at 11:01.
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Senna Dog
The comments that you quoted in your post are, each and every one of them, utter horse**** other than the "Spinning is great fun", IMHO of course...
Consider that spinning used to be in the syllabus for a PPL - at least in NZ and, I believe in the UK although I am not entirely sure about that.
You now have your PPL and looking to improve various aspects of your flying skills and repertoire. Learning to spin an aeroplane safely not only will teach you how to recover should you ever enter a spin inadvertently, but is also an intelligent precursor to starting aerobatics, should you be interested in that.
Even if you don't particularly like it, spin training will never be detrimental to your flying skills and it may awaken your interest in a different type of flying.
Enjoy.
The comments that you quoted in your post are, each and every one of them, utter horse**** other than the "Spinning is great fun", IMHO of course...
Consider that spinning used to be in the syllabus for a PPL - at least in NZ and, I believe in the UK although I am not entirely sure about that.
You now have your PPL and looking to improve various aspects of your flying skills and repertoire. Learning to spin an aeroplane safely not only will teach you how to recover should you ever enter a spin inadvertently, but is also an intelligent precursor to starting aerobatics, should you be interested in that.
Even if you don't particularly like it, spin training will never be detrimental to your flying skills and it may awaken your interest in a different type of flying.
Enjoy.
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Cheers Evo.
This leads me on to my next question. For the immediate future I am probably only going to fly Katanas and C-172s. Should I be looking for an aircraft that handles/spins in a similar way to either of these two or does it not matter?
In the UK, Katanas are not rated for spinning and I'm not sure about the C-172 so I guess the closest would be a C-152 but this has a high wing as opposed to the low wing of the Katana - does this make any difference?
This leads me on to my next question. For the immediate future I am probably only going to fly Katanas and C-172s. Should I be looking for an aircraft that handles/spins in a similar way to either of these two or does it not matter?
In the UK, Katanas are not rated for spinning and I'm not sure about the C-172 so I guess the closest would be a C-152 but this has a high wing as opposed to the low wing of the Katana - does this make any difference?
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Sennadog
At your stage of experience, one thing that I would recommend is having some extra lessons with an instructor based on handling at low speeds and in various configurations.
I'm not trying to put you off spin training, but I was lucky enough to receive a couple of hours training on slow speed handling and it is was very valuable.
I remember flying a Warrior at 45KIAS (must have been some position error I reckon), with full flaps and being able to control it easily despite the ridiculous pitch angle and the stall warning going beserk.
Although we all learn slow speed handling early in the PPL, looking again post PPL is good, as you will "feel" much more now that before.
I started flying out of grass strips some time afterwards and knowing that I could fly accurately at VS1.3 on short final was a big help - directly due to the training I had.
Cheers F3G
At your stage of experience, one thing that I would recommend is having some extra lessons with an instructor based on handling at low speeds and in various configurations.
I'm not trying to put you off spin training, but I was lucky enough to receive a couple of hours training on slow speed handling and it is was very valuable.
I remember flying a Warrior at 45KIAS (must have been some position error I reckon), with full flaps and being able to control it easily despite the ridiculous pitch angle and the stall warning going beserk.
Although we all learn slow speed handling early in the PPL, looking again post PPL is good, as you will "feel" much more now that before.
I started flying out of grass strips some time afterwards and knowing that I could fly accurately at VS1.3 on short final was a big help - directly due to the training I had.
Cheers F3G
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Final 3 Greens .
Good advice, I actually had another lesson yesterday and that was one of the things that we did. It's amazing how much more relaxed I was and my flying was much better as a consequence which must be due to some of the pressure being off I suppose.
Good advice, I actually had another lesson yesterday and that was one of the things that we did. It's amazing how much more relaxed I was and my flying was much better as a consequence which must be due to some of the pressure being off I suppose.
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sennadog
From what I have heard, spinning training used to be compulsory for the UK PPL, & I believe that it had to be done BEFORE the first solo. The CAA withdrew this requirement about 12-15 years ago, firstly because the spin training at this early stage, was considered too dangerous. Secondly too many students were being totally put off flying. No doubt one of the old-timers can confirm or correct this.
Whilst training for my PPL, I was always hearing about the perils of inadvertant spins, & that made my nervous. So, once I had got my licence, I was very keen to get the whole think clear in my mind, by trying spinning. The first aircraft I went spinning in was an aged C150 Aerobat. The first spin, was demonstarted by the instructor & was terrifying, but only because I was infamiliar with how an aircraft behaved, when being forced into a spin. Once I had had a go, & found just how easy it was to get a C150, out of a spin... I thought "well that was fun"
. When can I try it again?
Since then I have been spinning in a Bulldog Pup & a Citabria. All 3 of these types, are supposed to be easy to spin & more importantly to recover from spins. The easiest was probably the C150. It always gave me the impression, that even if you screamed & let go of all the controls, it would still waffle inself out of the spin. (BUT please don't try this at home
). For a first spinning lesson, I would choose a docile spinning aircraft, such as C150/C152 & an instructor, who you really trust.
So, sennadog, my advice would be the same as it was for me. Go & get it out of your system. For me, it got over all my fears of inadvertant spins, & its FUN FUN FUN
From what I have heard, spinning training used to be compulsory for the UK PPL, & I believe that it had to be done BEFORE the first solo. The CAA withdrew this requirement about 12-15 years ago, firstly because the spin training at this early stage, was considered too dangerous. Secondly too many students were being totally put off flying. No doubt one of the old-timers can confirm or correct this.
Whilst training for my PPL, I was always hearing about the perils of inadvertant spins, & that made my nervous. So, once I had got my licence, I was very keen to get the whole think clear in my mind, by trying spinning. The first aircraft I went spinning in was an aged C150 Aerobat. The first spin, was demonstarted by the instructor & was terrifying, but only because I was infamiliar with how an aircraft behaved, when being forced into a spin. Once I had had a go, & found just how easy it was to get a C150, out of a spin... I thought "well that was fun"
. When can I try it again?Since then I have been spinning in a Bulldog Pup & a Citabria. All 3 of these types, are supposed to be easy to spin & more importantly to recover from spins. The easiest was probably the C150. It always gave me the impression, that even if you screamed & let go of all the controls, it would still waffle inself out of the spin. (BUT please don't try this at home
). For a first spinning lesson, I would choose a docile spinning aircraft, such as C150/C152 & an instructor, who you really trust.So, sennadog, my advice would be the same as it was for me. Go & get it out of your system. For me, it got over all my fears of inadvertant spins, & its FUN FUN FUN
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I'll have to find an instructor that I trust then. Unfortunately, there are no aircraft at my Club that are suitable for spinning and the instructor who has been recommended to me is now on holiday!
Needless to say, I'm impatient and don't want to wait and looking at the weather outside I want to do it NOW!
Why can't I get involved with pastimes that are not expensive?
Champagne tastes, beer income!
Needless to say, I'm impatient and don't want to wait and looking at the weather outside I want to do it NOW!
Why can't I get involved with pastimes that are not expensive?
Champagne tastes, beer income!
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I was spun in a C152 as part of my PPL. It wasn't part of the syllabus but my instructor likes aeros so who was I to stop him.
The first one was terrifying, but from then one it got easier. The worst part was the waiting, knowing that this flight was the one when we would do the dreaded SPINS!!
Do it, it will be good experience.
The first one was terrifying, but from then one it got easier. The worst part was the waiting, knowing that this flight was the one when we would do the dreaded SPINS!!
Do it, it will be good experience.
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A little bit off topic, but.............Anyone see 'A plane is born'? on Discovery? I remember one episode when he (can't remember his name...the manic bloke) did some spin training. I was surprised to see he was spinning an Archer II (or Warrior II). I thought that neither of these was certified for intentional spinning...?
Cheers
EA
Cheers
EA
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englishal
Yes, I have seen various aircraft being spun, or doing aerobatics, that are not certified for it. I am not sure of the legalities. Is it an offence under the ANO or whatever?
I remember discussing this with an experienced engineer. His answer was that there are a lot of light aircraft that are not certified for spinning, but this is not for the obvious reasons, such as the airframe would be overstressed, or the wings drop off etc.
The reason is, that they will spin very well, with no harm to the airframe, BUT, they are extremely difficult to get out of a spin
Yes, I have seen various aircraft being spun, or doing aerobatics, that are not certified for it. I am not sure of the legalities. Is it an offence under the ANO or whatever?
I remember discussing this with an experienced engineer. His answer was that there are a lot of light aircraft that are not certified for spinning, but this is not for the obvious reasons, such as the airframe would be overstressed, or the wings drop off etc.
The reason is, that they will spin very well, with no harm to the airframe, BUT, they are extremely difficult to get out of a spin
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The guy off the Telly was Mark Evans. I am looking forward to his new program "A Chopper Is Born" that is starting this month.
I did spins after about 6 hours. Probably not the best time for most students but I found them enjoyable.
Hopefully I will be instructing by early next year so I may get to do them regularly.
I did spins after about 6 hours. Probably not the best time for most students but I found them enjoyable.
Hopefully I will be instructing by early next year so I may get to do them regularly.
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The guy off the Telly was Mark Evans. I am looking forward to his new program "A Chopper Is Born" that is starting this month.
If it's anthing like 'A Plane Is Born' (or 'A Car Is Born' for that matter) there'll be no shortage of repeats though!
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FS,
You are dead right there. I have a Tivo box and I work away all week. The program is repeated about 10 times a week and it fills up the hard disk.
It is still very good though.
You are dead right there. I have a Tivo box and I work away all week. The program is repeated about 10 times a week and it fills up the hard disk.
It is still very good though.
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Sennadog,
Have you thought about an aerobatics course. Not only will you get plenty of spins, but flight into and recoveries from unusual attitudes will be very useful. Moreover, you should have a parachute and the aircraft will probably have the facility for jettisoning doors etc (remember even the very best pilots get it wrong sometimes). Plus some of the more exotic aero types require a totally correct recovery technique - again good practice. - Maybe even get a taildragger rating out of it at the same time. (
Alternatively, try your local gliding club. I think that the BGA syllabus still requires proper spin training and I'm sure someone on staff would oblidge.
Englishal, Warriors, Cadets & Archers are not cleared for intentional spinning, but I seem to recall the old Cherokee 140's are. Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm way off.
Father Mulcahy
Have you thought about an aerobatics course. Not only will you get plenty of spins, but flight into and recoveries from unusual attitudes will be very useful. Moreover, you should have a parachute and the aircraft will probably have the facility for jettisoning doors etc (remember even the very best pilots get it wrong sometimes). Plus some of the more exotic aero types require a totally correct recovery technique - again good practice. - Maybe even get a taildragger rating out of it at the same time. (
Alternatively, try your local gliding club. I think that the BGA syllabus still requires proper spin training and I'm sure someone on staff would oblidge.
Englishal, Warriors, Cadets & Archers are not cleared for intentional spinning, but I seem to recall the old Cherokee 140's are. Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm way off.
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Spin training is certainly a good idea, and is nothing to be feared.
I don't know why spins were removed from the PPL(A) flight test, as it is good fun and not particularly difficult.
I don't agree that it's a waste of time because most spins happen too low to recover. Intentional spinning is also a relatively safe way to get down through an overcast if you are ever caught 'on top' (although you need to ensure that the ceiling ends a reasonable distance above the ground, obviously).
I confess that I have never spun a 172 (deliberately or otherwise), but my copy of the POH for the 172N indicates that "intentional spins are approved in this airplane within certain restrictions".
No real need for a heavy session at the books, but if you want to do some reading as part of your training two references that you might find helpful are:
(1) Sammy Mason, "Stalls, Spins, and Safety" (McGraw-Hill, 1982);
(2) Dunstan Hadley, "Only Seconds to Live: Pilots' Tales of the Stall and the Spin" (Airlife, 1997)
Have fun,
MLS-12D
P.S. Distaff is right, the 150/152 will usually come out of a spin on its own given half a chance; much like a Schweizer 2-33. I don't recommend the 150/152 because it is not easy to provoke into a spin and unless you know what you are doing you often wind up in a spiral dive, which wastes time and may leave you with a false impression of what a spin looks/feels like. I'd suggest a Piper Tomahawk for your spin training.
I don't know why spins were removed from the PPL(A) flight test, as it is good fun and not particularly difficult.
I don't agree that it's a waste of time because most spins happen too low to recover. Intentional spinning is also a relatively safe way to get down through an overcast if you are ever caught 'on top' (although you need to ensure that the ceiling ends a reasonable distance above the ground, obviously).
I confess that I have never spun a 172 (deliberately or otherwise
), but my copy of the POH for the 172N indicates that "intentional spins are approved in this airplane within certain restrictions".No real need for a heavy session at the books, but if you want to do some reading as part of your training two references that you might find helpful are:
(1) Sammy Mason, "Stalls, Spins, and Safety" (McGraw-Hill, 1982);
(2) Dunstan Hadley, "Only Seconds to Live: Pilots' Tales of the Stall and the Spin" (Airlife, 1997)
Have fun,
MLS-12D
P.S. Distaff is right, the 150/152 will usually come out of a spin on its own given half a chance; much like a Schweizer 2-33. I don't recommend the 150/152 because it is not easy to provoke into a spin and unless you know what you are doing you often wind up in a spiral dive, which wastes time and may leave you with a false impression of what a spin looks/feels like. I'd suggest a Piper Tomahawk for your spin training.
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Like Who Has Control I did spinning as part of my PPL training, even though it wasn't part of the syllabus. I only had about 5 hours experience though, and was still a bit nervous. Fortunately my instructor didn't warn me in advance, so I couldn't worry about it! I'd like to do a bit more too, although I'm not quite ready for full-blown aerobatics 
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I believe that part of the certification process to allow an aircraft to be certified for intentional spinning, is that it will recover itself within a reasonable time, with no pilot input, assuming C&G and W&B limits are correct.
A 172 is certified in the Utility cat, though for someone like me, 6'1" weighing a good few Kg, I calculated I can only carry about 10 Gals of fuel :-) (or a very small passenger)
Cheers
EA
A 172 is certified in the Utility cat, though for someone like me, 6'1" weighing a good few Kg, I calculated I can only carry about 10 Gals of fuel :-) (or a very small passenger)
Cheers
EA
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I've done some spinning and it was really good fun.
I think it is definitely worthwhile because it gives you confidence as you know even if you lose control you'll be able to recover (given height). It's not enough to just be told how, you have to do it for yourself.
Most unintentional spins do occur low down but that's no reason to not bother taking precautions as many planes could be recovered if they spun from under a 1000ft. You might as well give yourself a chance.
By the way some of you mentioned that more people are killed in spin training than in actual spins. I find this hard to believe. What time period does that cover?
I think it is definitely worthwhile because it gives you confidence as you know even if you lose control you'll be able to recover (given height). It's not enough to just be told how, you have to do it for yourself.
Most unintentional spins do occur low down but that's no reason to not bother taking precautions as many planes could be recovered if they spun from under a 1000ft. You might as well give yourself a chance.
By the way some of you mentioned that more people are killed in spin training than in actual spins. I find this hard to believe. What time period does that cover?