Throw in the towel?
 

Hi my names pat and im currently completing my private pilot licence in Ireland, ive around nine to ten hours of flying completed, im completing my ppl in a local school where i live. Basically im writing this in hope of some advice with the situation im in. Recently my instructor has been getting quite frustrated with me during my lessons he constantly makes remarks on how i take so long to complete my walk arounds and my pre-flight inspections and paper work, he also makes remarks on how i find it difficult to do simple mental mathematical calculations in my head. Ive tried to block out the negative criticism but recently it has really started to bug me, i sometimes dread to turn up for my lesson becouse of it. Due to the bad weather during the summer i haven't been flying as frequent as i would of liked to, i usually get to do a lesson once every 3 weeks due to weather and work commitments and collage. I really do enjoy flying and i am really enthusiastic to learn, but the constant comments on my errors every lesson is really starting to bug me. He also made remarks on how slow its taking for me to catch onto things and that i should really rethink if completing my ppl is a good idea. So basically im asking ye guys out there for some advice for the situation im in, should i stick with it and not give up or should i take the advice from in instructor in throw in the towel!

thanks

It is a bit difficult to comment properly as we cannot really know how you are doing from your post. I would suggest a change of instructor and see how you get on then. If it is the instructors fault or yours, quite often a different instructors approach can change things.
Certainly I know that anyone learning to fly leaves 75% of their brain behind when they arrive at the airfield! but I would expect any experienced instructor to be aware of and allowing for that, someone less experienced might get frustrated, but I would say if this is the case this will be happening with many of that instructors students - have you spoken to them?
10 Hours is not far into the course and it would be a shame to give up this early.:ok:

Hi Pat,

Not quite enough information to provide you with an objective opinion. That said, negativity is never nice, and should be avoided as much as possible. Sometimes, in a carefully planned way it helps - it's memorable. I certainly remember being "told" a few times by instructors over the years.

In my opinion, you have to have a chat with your instructor. Be prepared to take some relevant criticism, and be gracious when it comes. But state your unwillingness to accept meaningless criticism, or negativity. PPL training is serious business, but should be fun and positive too.

If you have specific examples of something which is disagreeable to you, put it forth, and perhaps commenters here will have thoughts. Be prepared for honest opinions though!

This sort of approach is hardly appropriate for a 9-10 hour student. Ask your school for a new instructor.

Thanks for all the replies , just when I start the lesson with the instructor he watches my every move , even the most smallest things like where to put the checklist when finished with it , he watches and comments. I feel very under pressure when I'm with him almost as if he's waiting for me to mess up so that he can comment on it . I can honestly say I'm a good pilot when I'm at the controls I'm not nervous I'm relatively confident and for such a gap between lessons I'm not that rusty . It's just simple things like basic mathematical sums in my head i have difficulty with, I've always been fearful with maths and I always tried to not let it bother me with my flying , but if an instructor is commenting about it after each lesson you tend to louse confidence in your self .

Pat,

Obviously, as others have stated, such situations are hard to judge objectively in a forum like this with one side of the story heard.

But nevertheless: I don't see how it is some instructor's call to judge whether you're learning too slow and should just leave it - and I find it unprofessional of an instructor to imply this.

That's entirely your call and you need to be happy with your progress or even with flying in general! It's not so much about getting there (to the license) as fast as possible. As long as you're enjoying flying (with an instructor to your right or not), everything is fine!

I believe some of the best pilots out there have taken their time to learn their craft.

And I'd suggest to change the instructor, too. You're obviously not quite on the same page.

Ok thanks very much for all the replies !

PatRyan

CHANGE THE INSTRUCTOR!! Its your hard earned money that pays him money not the other way around.
Frankly he has no rights to be so picky with such a low time student and will not bring the best out of you with that attitude.

One day soon you will be flying alone with no instructor and you then have to be PIC and make the decisions.

like in any walk of life there are some people we get on with and are compatible with and others we clash with and who do not bring the best out of us.

Chang instructors to someone you do like and feel comfortable with and if he then notes the same problems you may have some work to do but my guess is this instructor has an attitude problem with you

What kind of mental arithmetic is he asking you to do in flight at 10 hours?

I agree with Pace entirely.

Not sure what mathematical sums a 10 hour student should be doing anyway?
This is good (it is his job after all)
But this is not good - a difference in expectations perhaps?

With Checks / Checklists there are:
1) Learning the sequence of any checks/required actions
2) Learning what you are actually checking/actioning
3) Learning how to interpret the results of any check/confirm any actions

1) and 2) all require repetition to learn and take time and practice.
3) requires some understanding of how an aeroplane works/flies.

Most students learning to fly start with zero understanding of how an aeroplane works. Which means they rely totally on a 'Check List' to 'tell' them what to do and are effectively just learning 1) - with 2) and 3) coming later.

The sequences are in a particular order (usually) for a very good reason and I would expect an Instructor to be quite pedantic about this (the sequence) to help the student learn it and to prevent bad habits developing.
However lots of praise for getting items correct is called for - not just concentrating on the negatives.

People learn better from making their own mistakes, but this is not always safe in flying.
EG: Mixture to Rich omitted prior to engine start - Great
Carb. Heat not confirmed Set to Cold just before Take Off - Not Good.

Personally, I think every new student should be told to learn Aircraft General Knowledge and Theory of Flight right from the start of the course - even if these are not the exams they will sit first.

patryan,
You should ask your Instructor for a ground lesson on 'Checks' as the better you understand what you are looking for, and why, the less likely you will be to make any mistakes.
Ask your Instructor WHY you have to put it in a particular place - there may be a very good reason - and this would help you remember to do it.
EG: If just before Take Off the Check List must not be where it could get in the way (of controls), nor where it could be a distraction (on the 'Dashboard' where it could fall off)

Caveat: As other Posters have said, it could just be that your Instructor is a Numpty whose style does not mesh with your personality - find out by speaking to him about it.

dear pat ryan:

Ask yourself one question: are you of average or above average intelligence?

IF THE ANSWER IS YES >>>>GET A NEW INSTRUCTOR RIGHT AWAY.

IF you feel you are below average intelligence, HOW CAN YOU BE USING A COMPUTER? ;-)

Get a new instructor. I've been around for quite awhile and I have seen it all. While I have not instructed in Ireland, I will tell you this. Taking time for a walk around inspection means you are being thorough and looking for understanding in all of the new world of aviation and planes.

This instructor sounds like he likes to put you down, to elevate himself.


And, since you are new to flying, I hope you go out and BUY "Stick And Rudder" and read it 10 times over!

Good Luck to you.

Pat,

Your instructor is there to do: Keep you safe, Teach and promote learning, and Inspire and mentor. If you're feeling put down, element three is totally lost, and element two is probably threatened. NOt everyone is grat all the time, and we all make allowances, but on average, you should feel inspired and positive about the experience.

You should never hear: What the **** did you do that for?!?", but do expect to hear: "Well, that could have worked out better, let me show you how." But for every one "that coulda worked out better, you should hope to hear several "Well done"s.

I just finished an hour of marine training with two firefighters. I told them both: "If you're unhappy with the train I just gave, tell me. If you're happy, tell the Training Captain" (who is actually my daughter). Would your instructor encourage you to discuss your satisfaction with the training? If not, why not?

Be the bigger person, and talk to your instructor. If you do not leave that conversation in agreement, yup, it's probably time for a new instructor, if that's a choice for you. Remind yourself that some instructors are very new too, probably with very little personality training - not that that's an excuse....

I am sure that he sees things differently, but that does not really matter. This instructor has an approach that isn't working for you. Get a different instructor.

Indeed - sounds like you need another instructor. You have given it a good try with this one, and it isn't working. It is sometimes the case that the personalities of student and instructor do clash in some way - and your description of his style is one that would make me go nuts too.


You are the customer. If it isn't working it is the instructor who is failing, not you - so don't be embarrassed to face this issue as you would any other in which you are not getting what you expected when you bought something.

Hello Pat!

Now I wonder if this mucho macho instructor could be ex-military? Sometimes these chaps forget just who is paying for the flying instruction, namely YOU (and not the government).

I've had a lot of instructors because I started flying at 50,so made slow progress. You are starting young, and some types feel they can pick on youngsters. I was a bit more experienced and so if I didn't like the attitude of the bossy type I ditched him and got somebody else. You might think of taking a holiday in the UK or the USA for a week or two and spending the entire time doing your training....because the best way to learn is to go on a concentrated week or 2 week course, then you don't slip back as one does when you go say once every 2 or 3 weeks. However, NEVER PAY UP FRONT ALL AT ONCE! Flying clubs have a tendency to go bust and there goes your money as well....

Ireland is a problem because your weather is even worse than ours; England in the midlands would be best, say Wellesborne, or similar.

Or you could come gliding with us at Shenington Gliding Club! more fun and cheaper than power.

Teaching people to fly is as much about teaching decision making and confidence in the aviation environment as it is about teaching the mechanical skills of controlling the aircraft.

Clearly the instructor is not communicating these "soft" skills in positive way for you, perhaps you need to look as yourself and ask if you are being over sensitive to his critical observations and comments, only then can you decide if it is time to change instructor.

If there is an instructor behaving like this, I would put this in the learning bucket.

When talking to the instructor is not coming to a change (crew management first), then a clear word with the ATO is needed (flightschool management second) and most probably a change of instructor is advisable.

When flying, you have to deal with such situations, BUT they should not appear so early in training and especially not at PPL level and not by reason of your instructor. Yes, one part of the training is to be able to say "shut up, let my fly the machine" to the instructor, but usually at the end of the training.

Any instructor who undermines the confidence of a student to the point where the student finds it necessary to ask for advice on the subject is, in my opinion, worse than useless.
My advice, ditch the instructor, complain to the CFI, go somewhere else to train. You will become a nervous wreck otherwise.
You are paying good money for a service, you deserve to receive what you pay for.

Hi Pat,

Firstly i would say scrap the instructor, and find a new one with the patience and decency to help you along the course at your pace! Secondly dont bring yourself down worrying about your maths skills or anything like that, I personally have just short of 14 hours in my logbook and i cant think of any maths i have been asked to do. Additionally dont take critisism from him on your maths. Everybody has different abillities when it comes to mental sums and what gives him the right to comment on your abillities in such a way.

If you are at the point where you are not enjoying going flying something needs to change. Its not going to be you, over time you will develop your maths, your speed with checklists etc, but for now your instructor needs to change. Because by the sound of it he is there for the £££ more than wanting to help a determind student pilot grasp the world of aviation!

Ditch the instructor and enjoy flying once again; at YOUR OWN PACE, not the instructors.

Another vote for change the instructor, its not on, or professional for someone in authority to be belittling at any stage of your flying training, let alone at the beginning. And you are their customer, they should want to keep you. You arent (it seems) in the RAF and being demanded by an employer to reach a certain standard in x hours.

I know someone in their 50's who completed their PPL in something like 200 hours. OK, thats way above the national averages, but he was enjoying the training, he wasnt particuarly quick to learn, and although his instructor was a pretty tough cookie, the instructor made personal allowances for his student, and got him successfully through the PPL. Both were happy, and you should be happy.

There may be a problem with asking for a new Instructor... The Flying School may not have one.


Or a second instructor may be worse. They are all different, some stricter, some unfortunately too lenient, and some are just not on the same page as the student.


.

Pat

I can remember many many moons ago when I was learning having one instructor who was very arrogant and self opinionated almost to the point of making lessons a self ego trip.

I flew badly with him as my confidence was not there. He interfered to the point that I felt like a zombie flying by numbers to his command and inputs rather than naturally.
His commands were to stamp his own authority but not just that to demonstrate his superiority.

at first I took it then I started challenging him which meant the sorties became a battle of wills and bad atmosphere.

i changed instructors to a guy who was almost like flying with a friend.I felt i was flying the aircraft not him and he only intervened or added comments if need be which was rare and done in a way which was diplomatic and constructive.

the difference was immense and his comments were that I was way above average so ditch the guy and find someone you blend with rather than conflict with.
Then ditch the school until you find an instructor who is right for you! Its your money and expensive at that and will end up far more expensive if you are with someone who is not getting the best from you !!! You call the shots at who you give your hard earned cash too.

Pace

In-flight maths?
 

What maths are you having to do?

What maths are you having to do?

Inflight maths is part of the syllabus, but usually you do that when approximately ready for x-country, i.e. 1/60 rules for interception (keep in mind, we talk partFCL, so extensive CVFR is part of the training), ETA and ETE calculation, xwind, TOD, glidepath, fuel consumed etc etc ... once you fly the plane, you have capacity for the simple pilots calculations, but not before.

As other have said, get a new instructor. Its not cheap to learn to fly and it should be fun, or as fun as it can be when you're being taught something as complex as this.

As for in-flight maths, you should be being taught to handle the aeroplane before being expected to do calculations such as fuel required to reach a diversion.

I got to my test in minimum time and I'm sure my time with a flight simulator was key to this. I didn't use the simulator to learn to handle the plane (they're not much use for this), I used it to expand my capacity and learn my checks and practice my radio calls. The idea was to simulate the mental loading of flying the plane and keeping the needles pointing in the right direction (alt,ASI,compass) whilst practicing making the right call at the right time, or doing the mental calculations for a diversion. This practice meant that in the real thing, my brain was having to adjust to doing a familiar procedure in a noisy box, rather than translating something that I had only done in the classroom.

Now I'm a seasoned skygod:} I have pretty awful mental arithmetic but I've got very good at guestimating my way around the sky. I only fly VFR and always plan any cross-countries to leave me with and hour's fuel at my destination, but beyond that I'm very lazy. This doesn't mean I don't know where I am, but it does mean that when London Information asks me for an ETA to the FIR Boundary when I'm somewhere near Beachy Head, my estimates on the fly are very inaccurate. The potential for big cockups is when flying over water and when crossing the Channel I'm very anal about getting all the maths right before taking off.

don't give up Pat, some of us take a little longer to grasp these things. You might want to remind him that you're paying his wages and if it takes a little longer to learn then he's only ever going to be on the make

Regarding the walk around, take your time. I'm an almost there PPL but walk arounds have thrown up things which I have raised which were not previously spotted. Loose shimmy dampener, propeller ding, landing / nav lights inop, window strut thing broken, door seal loose, oil low etc.

Do it properly as it shows you know what you are up to and at the end of the day, when you do eventually solo, you want to know that the aircraft is sound as there's no-one in the rhs to sort it!.

Enjoy it !
 

Pat,

First of all you have to enjoy what you are doing, it's not compulsory to learn to fly, it's not cheap and it's your hard earned cash so make sure you enjoy it.

From my own experience, I've been flying all kinds of aircraft since I was very young, Hangliders as a kid on the hills in the Yorkshire Dales, Microlights, Pitts Specials RV's etc and I can tell you that a thorough walk around and check is the most important thing I do to this day and something which I learnt very early on in my flying career. I once saw a very very experienced Hanglider Pilot pick up his glider and set off running over the edge of a hill only to find out very quickly that he'd forgotten to "clip in" - he was very very lucky, the hill was shallow and he managed to run it off, but had he been on a ramp take-off on a mountain or cliff edge, he wouldn't be here now - that was pure complacency on his part!

Pilots do become complacent, at all levels and it's easy and quick to kick a tyre or two to satisfy yourself, but you owe it to yourself and of course your passengers because you have a duty of care to them so keep up to your high level of pre-flight checks, no matter how long it takes because trust me, one day it might just save your life.

Maths was never my strongest subject, in fact, I'm convinced I'm mathematically dyslexic, mmm! and I too remember the panic when asked to do some number juggling but somehow I managed to get through it.
It's never been an issue since my learning days because I can take my own time and I'm not under too much pressure, and there's always a whole bundle of IT to help me if I need it!

Sack the instructor! I once did! I had an instructor who in my view was completely mental !; Swearing, banging the top of the panel, sighing every other minute, in fact just about every bad manner you could imagine. I was about 9 or 10 hours at the time, did two with this instructor, got out of the plane and sacked him on the spot -it was a great feeling to see his mouth drop! There's no excuse for foul language or any other form of discouragement for that matter when teaching.

On a good point, I have flown with some fantastic instructors, people who really make you feel that you are doing a great job when you are and help you when you're not, and in turn you improve because most of it is about confidence, and that's what you're lacking, so move him on and you will move up quicker than you could imagine.

Good luck and keep going, it's worth it.

Martin

Even further - never, ever, stop doing a thorough walkaround. That bloody beast with wings will try to kill you one day and you better have a look at it :E ...

Seriously, you will find things your whole flying career long upon inspection. Last week my hangar neighbor was leaving when I had a look around and saw a screw lying on the ground, where his plane used to be. A quick look revealed - a prop screw ... took the hand radio and was lucky to reach him while still taxiing = he had lost two screws already.

At 10hrs?

No, seriously Pat, what maths are you being asked to do?

Don't give up - go somewhere else , you are learning to fly not do maths .


Yes there is some maths element in getting your PPL but a bit of dead reckoning , simple map reading , visual location awareness and you'll crack it.


I don't remember getting much to do with maths in the air with my instructors , may be a few headings changes , but if I wasn't happy with anything or the way it was going I made it clear.


If you walk away from the school it can look bad on them , so they are expected to get the tuition across , if you don't like the attitude of the instructor just take your business somewhere else.


I tried another flying school when trying to decide on best flying school for my training , took an instant dislike to the instructor on the first lesson , bad attitude , anyway they didn't get anymore money or business off me.


Very happy with my final choice of school and the instructors were brilliant.

Everyone above is right.
You are the customer / consumer / the guy paying the instructor.
Be constructively assertive about the situation - and you should be enjoying every bit of your flying.
If necessary - change flight school or flying club. Get your log-book signed off up to date.
Walk round preflight inspections are often lifesavers. DO NOT BE RUSHED.
Your instructor may have an eye on the overall day's schedule - the following lesson.

Did they say "Don't pay in advance"?

When I did my PPL back in the dark ages (OK, 1970s), I had many different instructors - it just depended who was free as I wanted to do it as quickly as possible and couldn't afford to wait for a favorite guy to have a free slot (I am a firm believer that doing it quickly - about 7 months in my case - prevents that 'two steps forward one and half steps back' that happens when gaps between lessons are long).

I think it was an excellent system as one could discount the odd 'not on my page' guy's methods while still learning from him. It taught me two valuable truths about flying:

1) There is often more than one way to do things.

2) You have to be self-reliant.

The latter point refers to the need, when having a mix of instructors, to manage one's own progress through the syllabus and not rely on being spoon fed and led by the hand. It was not uncommon for an instructor to jump into the RH seat with a "right, where are you up to? What do you need to do today?".

Of course the CFI would be keeping a '35,000 foot view' of one's progress and would be one of the regulars one flew with, and all lessons were documented to ensure the syllabus was covered with no gaps.

Worked very well for me. Solo in 10.5 hours, PPL in a tad over the minimum (both of which I put down to some previous gliding experience, but mostly to taking lessons with minimum gaps between).

Pat- (based on what you have said) the 'instructor' has the problem, not you! Get a better one who respects you and your goals. Good luck with your ppl-keep at it! BK

The OP actually said 'mental arithmetic' not 'arithmetic in the air' - and I can, now, think of one calculation he should be able to do at 10 hours:
"OK Pat you say we have 40 Litres of fuel on board. Is that total or usable?
This aircraft uses approximately 25 litres per hour. For today's exercise we will be flying for approximately one hour. As you know we like to land with a least 45 minutes worth of fuel remaining. Can we go, or do we need to go to the Pumps first?"
The above is necessary, but it doesn't have to be done by mental arithmetic - just create a crib card.

Of course, in the air (eg during Cruise Checks) you should, by now, be able to mentally calculate roughly how much time you have left.

Checks in the air do need to be done in a timely manner, but that comes with practice.

Checks on the ground should never, ever be rushed.
Nor should an Instructor suggest to a student to hurry up.
However: A Preflight Check, which could easily be done by a PPL in 5 minutes might take a brand new student 30 minutes. If, after 10 hours it is still taking 30 minutes (not having even reduced to 25 minutes) then the Instructor would be correct to comment on this to see what the cause might be.

The OP mentioned a lack of continuity (due Wx) and this could be the reason. So I repeat my previous suggestion: Have a lesson on 'Checks'. No flying involved so can be done on one of those bad Wx days.

Certainly worth going in on bad wx days and doing this sort of thing, you can also cover a lot of other things sitting on the ground in the briefing room or even just sitting over a coffee chatting, but it does not say much about the instructor if he has not suggested this already!:=

Even an old experienced pilot/gliding instructor like me can get too complacent about the preflight inspection. See my last post on the gliding stories thread for details!

So Pat, you are actually off to a good start; we should have done a careful walkround before flying on last Sunday, and we didn't.

Rubbish instructor. Why would you pay him to speak to you like that.. Take your hours elsewhere to a school where people are more accommodating.
If you fancy a move to the south, PM me.

Hi id like to thank everyone for the positive feed back, " level altitude" thats exactly the kind of maths my instructor asks me, and i do get the answers right to the fuel calculation questions he asks me its just the pressure i dont like, ive always found maths difficult, i dont actually think im bad at maths i really think im just scared of them if that makes sense. And just to answer your mathematical question no we wont have to go to the pumps to fuel up we have a sufficient amount of fuel to fly for an hour. Its really my last lesson that has thrown me the most, when the instructor told me im taking too long to complete simple tasks like the walk around and his thoughts on how slow its taking me to catch onto things, he also commented on how i find simple tasks difficult, to be honest he has sucked allot of confidence out of me, im beginning to think that i should just leave it because from what hes saying im doing everything wrong and making an entire disaster out of each lesson.

Also coming back to " level altitudes " response to mathematical calculations, that's exactly what my instructor asks my when im doing lessons with my instructor, I understand if the aircraft has 40 liters of fuel in it and it consumes 20 liters an hour you will have approximately two hours flying time before fuel runs out, well im hoping that's correct anyways! its just when my instructor asks me " if we have 36 liters of fuel in the aircraft how long will be be able to fly for until we run out of fuel " that's where i tend to get abit confused and flustered and begin to panic, i find it difficult to work them calculations out in my head. Thats what im worried the most about, and if im already worried about the mathematical calculations it doesn't make me feel much better when my instructor comments about how bad i am at doing simple calculations.