Flight Test & Engine out (Video added)
 

During my flight test last year December, my instructor turned both fuel tanks off whilst I was flying (unbeknown to me as the are located behind us in the aircraft) and I was expected to perform an emergency landing at our airfield. I noticed the propeller was stationery and realising what happened, restarted the aircraft and performed a normal circuit.

Has anyone else experienced this, either during a flight test or been in a real emergency of this sort?

I will post a video shortly of this experience once it's ready.

It is a long video - the highlights are:
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s

Hmmmmm. Far be it from me to pass judgement on others. However, what I will say is this: Surely, the job of an instructor/examiner is to provide a learning experience for (or assess) the student, while managing the risks associated with it?

In my mind, shutting off the fuel and causing the engine to actually stop (particularly in a single) is increasing the risk you are exposing yourself and your student to for how much extra training benefit??...

I won't say any more than that, as I wasn't there, but thought I would throw that thought in early!

When I was a Chief flying instructor if any of my instructors had done something that stupid I would have immediately fired them.

The fellow who ran the flying school where I did my PPL had that habit when he was flying as examiner. If you stayed awake during his ground school, you would know that was one of his tricks:E

More info
 

Seems a rather odd post. 'Fuel tank selector behind us' what is aircraft type please?
'Instructor did as as emergency landing exercise ' shutting off the fuel is not going to stop the engine immediately, if you were in the landing pattern it could have stopped very inconveniently at low level.
'I noticed the propellor had stopped' thought you would have noticed the engine spluttering to a stop before that.

Looking forward to the vid

Yeah something smells fishy here.
Unless you were super slow on descent the prop would have to be feathered for it to stop windmilling.
BTW intentionally starving an engine of fuel to 'simulate' an engine failure (without adequate height to perform an air start in the event of electrical failure) is in my book a inexcusable, the risk involved is exponentially greater than the reward gained for the student.

Its not that everything went fine the last ten times they did it......its the final time that they do it they have to explain.............. and only if they are lucky/unlucky enough to explain it.

I've heard of such stupidity. I'm with BPF - "You did what? There's the door."

Thought I should mention that we were flying at 3000' and were well within easy gliding range of the airfield. With every approach during training I was expected to glide (with the engine set to idle) from abeam the runway threshold through the rest of the downwind leg, the base leg and final leg to touchdown. The aircraft is an Aeroprakt A22 light sport aircraft . The video should be ready to post by Monday:)

Instructors training techniques all vary in my experience , the good instructors leave an indelible mark on you a long time after you've gained your licence , when things have got challenging in the cockpit , bad weather ,icing , rough running engine etc, there voice sometimes rings loud in your ears when you need it most ! I'm not sure of the wisdom of turning the fuel off even at 3000ft in glide range of the field ,poor airmanship shouts at me ! . I had an experience a few years ago with an instructor in California , night flight from las vagas to San Diego in a beech duchess the weather in palomar was fog 1500 meters vis low ceiling tops at about 4000ft ( not unusual in Feb) the airport is surrounded by high ground up to 5000 ft , last but one flight of an intense IR course with what I still view was an excellent instructor , but whom I realised at that point went a bit to far , as we were about to turn inbound on the procedure above cloud he reached to pull the right mixture leaver to idle cut off , I asked politely in a loud voice "don't do it " too late the the starboard engine ground to a halt ! yes I did the drills as taught yes I flew the approach on one engine to minimums and landed safely . What did I learn ? I had been trained very well , I gained confidence in my ability ...... I also learned that instructors even good ones can make very bad decisions, had we gone missed on the approach we could not get out of the situation as the climb performance on a duchess single engine is bad at best, instructors Have no right to play with your life! training should be done in as safer manner as possible , my advice get another instructor !

An instructor did this once with me at a safe altitude and we could've landed easily at a huge military runway below. We did it only for a short time. The learning experience was that, in a Piper Tomahawk, it takes as long as 40 seconds from fuel shutoff to engine-out and the vertical speed will decrease from 900ft/min to 1000ft/min, compared to an idling engine. With the delay beeing that long I do believe that a pilot can forget about it if the workload is high. I learned from it that I only switch tanks if I have a minute to keep an eye on the engine. Also, conrtary to a post above, the engine doesn't sputter. After 40 seconds of cruise power it simply became silent within a second or two.
I think my instructor showed good airmanship with the decision making: the military airfield, altitude et cetera. The flight was safe. ;) With the wrong instructor, of course, it could be dangerous.

In the UK it could be an offence:

I think that for an FI at a good height over a large useable runway, you'd struggle to make a criminal charge stick. However, he might still be being silly.

I had an FI turn the switches off on me many years ago to make a point. We were overhead a 4x1 mile area of landable beach, and it was certainly not endangering anything, but did teach me something about handling and performance engine off. Landed, re-started, flew home.

G

As an understatement...I would say that your example of turning the fuel off for the purpose you describe is not recommended.

I had this done by a very experienced ex RAF instructor in 1964 - but the engine was NOT allowed to stop - it was in a Jackeroo.
After allowing my licence to lapse for 20 years, and re-doing it, I was being checked out on a C150 in Oklohoma when the engine note changed. I glanced at the instructor, noted his expression, and distracted him while I turned the fuel back on. (We were overhead a strip.):E

Re the prop stopping, it's got a Rotax, so, depending on the gearbox I would expect it to stop fairly quickly. Stopping the engine in flight is common practice on microlight instructor course in France, but I never heard of anyone doing it to a student.

Flight Test & Engine out (Video added)
 

I have added the video to my original post; it is a long video - the highlights are:
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s

Interesting about the time delay. I did this by accident once in a PA28: turned from L to Off instead of R. As I remember the incident, the engine ran down immediately, and only about 2 seconds passed before I realised what I'd done and turned it back. But it could have been longer - memory is an unreliable witness...

Out of interest. Is it normal practice on these aircraft to move your fingers to the brakes on short final? Or is that not a brake lever?

Nice video Sab, you appear a very cool calm operator! Wish we had your weather right now. As you've probably guessed, turning the taps off here in Blighty (much like adding milk after the tea) is considered a bit left field - probably to the relief of the AAIB.

What's the background to the instructor choosing this method of gliding selection, i.e., does the type you fly have a history of fuel cocks vibrating closed? It didn't look like you were too surprised by it and the instructor mentioned 'everyone expects it now' which to my mind negates the exercise.

To answer your question, I've only ever had the throttle chopped on me during check rides to drop the field landing hint, no-one has been brave enough to turn things off. Mind you, if you flew with me you'd want to leave things switched on frankly!

Sab

I am amazed at how good your videos are and how well edited they are.
You are very presentable for sake of another word and these could almost be part of a series of educational videos with a very presentable presenter :ok:

As for cutting the engine completely there are two arguments.

yes the risk factor increases and in these days of a liability society I am torn between practising things for real which will make you a better pilot (if you survive) and the baby flight instructing which happens nowadays!
No spins!!! incipient this and that :ugh:

I had old time examiners and we would take twins up to 10K and wring the necks out of the things including full engine shutdowns etc.

as I said if you survive you will be a better pilot for it and I am torn between the argument of teaching pilots to fly or churning out aircraft drivers! sadly the leaning is going more towards turning out aircraft drivers not pilots!

Pace

Engine off for training.

Way back in 1978 I (as an 18-year old) did my PPL at the West London Aero Club on PA-140's. The then CFI (DS) gave me a practical demonstration of shutting down the engine and doing an air-start both by using the starter motor and by a steep dive.

We were at a safe height and had Greenham Common below with a mile and more of runway to land on if the engine didn't start.

I must say the biggest thing I took away was a major boost in confidence. The aeroplane still flew, the vital actions to get the engine going work, and there was no need to scream, panic or freeze.

I never have had an engine failure for real but think that I would have been better able to deal with one if I did have one. In 1981 I had to shut down a dreaded Astazou XVI in a Jetstream as a precaution but that was in the cruise and a non-event.

Properly done I can't see the harm in demos of this kind in training, but do not advocate them being done in a test situation with an examiner.....

MB

Thank all you for your comments, feedback and the kind compliments Pace & Ridger :ok:

I have always felt I received the best possible training from my instructors who I (and my parents) feel did an outstanding job of training me to be a safe, confident pilot. They're "old school" instructors who believe in solid stick & rudder skills. When my school was training in strong, gusting & swinging x-winds, the other aircraft at the field had been put away.

Not sure how many pilots are trained by their school to do s-turns, slips, hover taxi / strip run just above stall 2 or 3 feet above the strip for most of the length of the runway (it's tough :ouch:), flying without instruments and glide approaches on every landing they ever performed.

I'll see if I can find a video of my strip run training. Below is a video of my shortfield / crosswind / no instruments training. I do prefer my check ride short field landing though...

Good vid! It's a well worn adage but some people are taught to fly, and some people, like you, are taught to aviate. It is refreshing to see you being taught judgement and control feel rather than just numbers. I liked your instructors opening gambit too - wise words.

However, I'm afraid to say there is a major design flaw with your machine. It has a nosewheel! This is only acceptable when gas turbines are involved. I jest of course, but strongly recommend you take your skills forward onto the next stage and get into a Pitts!

Taildraggers......
I fly one because it's a better aircraft for the sort of flying I like to do, and because when I was in the market to buy it was, well, cheap.
I don't think makes me better at anything except takeoffs, landings, and ground handling. All the rest is just flying, same whatever sort of undercarriage the aircraft has. It is entirely possible to learn to fly properly in ANY aircraft, from opening the hangar doors to closing them at the end of the day. It is the student and instructor that matter, and their hard work and inability to accept "good enough".
I learned to fly on a C150, because that was cheapest. It cost me £28 per hour, at a time when I was earning £25 a week in my day job. If I had waited to be sure to have the money to continue after the licence i probably wouldn't have got my PPL. I had just enough saved to do the first 20 hours of my licence, which I completed in the then 40 hour minimum, spread over two years as I took on odd jobs here and there to pay the rest, borrowing the books and all home study. So, yes, often it was a struggle to keep flying, but I managed, and converted to a cub with ease. A fair bit of gliding kept me going post PPL, until my finances improved and I and my other half bought a cheap tatty cub. We've been flying it for thirty years now. It isn't tatty now. Apparently it's a collector's aeroplane.
Oh, yes, and we use it for touring. 75kts is fast enough to get there, eventually.

sab444 ref the last video:

Good job! That's the kind of training that will give you an advantage throughout your entire career as a professional pilot, should you decide to pursue that avenue. :D

CE500, I was also doing a Multi rating in a Duchess around 1998. The examiner pulled the RH engine mixture to idle/cut-off on approach while I was under the hood at about 2000 feet. Took it down to about 300 agl feet (I had just dropped the gear, what a lot of drag) then he said go-around, missed approach, and kept his hand on the fuel valve. Once I cleaned her up we did climb, and anyway Florida is flat and sea level - just so long as you miss the beach front hotels. Restarted about 1000 ft AGL and continued flight test. What did I learn? If you followed the book even an old beat up Duchess will climb out on one at sea level, just. Oh and yes, I did pass. I had been pre - warned he might do this - seems it was his party piece, some students got it, others didn't. I guess it depended on the side of bed he got out of that day.

There is absolutely no excuse for this. It happened to me once in a 172. The Instructor distracted me and turned the fuel off. The engine stopped without any spluttering but the prop continued to windmill. I looked down and turned it back on again. What did I learn? Nothing. If an Instructor did this and the engine refused to restart, followed by an emergency landing resulting in injury or worse. Who would you blame? Don't listen to those who say that it makes better pilots rather than aeroplane 'drivers' because that it nonsense. Fly safe.

in your opinion which you are as entitled to as I am mine !!! All I can say to that is I hope your flying is confined to nice sunny wind free days and you are lucky enough to have trouble free flying because if not you will not be equipped to deal with anything for real

From the above Sab is being trained as a Pilot and Aviator NOT a fair weather aeroplane driver

Pace

You obviously have not flown anything with a Rotax 912 up front, they drive a gearbox about 2:1 ratio, its quite easy to stop the prop and still be well above stall speed inthe Microlight/VLA/LSA types they are usually fitted to.
Ive had an instructor do exactly the same as shown in this video on a check flight, Its an important skill to have and maintain

P.S. I am quite certain the instructor had pre scanned the area and had a field planned for the eventuality that it would not re-start

Pace, we're talking about an Instructor turning the fuel off. How does that make me a better pilot exactly? I know what you're getting at and it's absolutely right to have to experience things outside the norm in order to be prepared.

By the way, resorting to insults does you no credit at all.

DeeCee

Your comment above referring to my post as nonsense ? And I am hurling insults ? Ok apologies to you ;)

Pace

In gliders, pulling the tow release is equivalent to shutting off the fuel -- done it hundreds of times:eek:

The glider flies just fine, but is always going downhill unless you find air going up faster than the glider is going down.

Yes a 100 fpm sink rate does give a bit more time to sort things out, but there has been the odd time I came down as fast as the towplane:\

Pulling the tow release at say 100 feet with no landable area ahead, therefore requiring you to turn back to the runway would be a more apt comparison as to the risk entailed.

How many times have you done that ?

I'm with Pace on this one. It's not the engine stopping that will teach you anything, it is what you do to deal with it. Light singles will land very nicely with the prop stopped. I may be biased here as a glider pilot as well as power, but I do get to fly with a lot of people with an unhealthy dependence on the engine, in particular by flying circuits more akin to a major cross country, and a final approach which in the event of an engine failure would ensure a crash.
We are not teaching people to fly but to drive, and do them no favours at all, if we teach utter reliance 100% of the time on the engine.
Forgotten techniques? Height can be lost very easily but it's rather hard to claw it back on approach. Let's try to find some more time to teach sideslipping and s turns, pilot navigation with map and watch, forced landings with power that result in an undamaged aeroplane, short field and soft field techniques, flapless landings, flying without instruments, care of passengers, and above all some feel for what the aircraft is doing.
Maybe we could find this time by losing the big aeroplane mentality, the 747 circuits, the faffing around on the radio, and in general the implication that all students will go on to fly airliners. They won't. Anyone training for that can learn the appropriate techniques when they transition to large aircraft. The rest of us will benefit from handling a light aircraft as just that, eyes outside and fly the attitude.

Good point well presented. <1 I'll bet. I think that sort of carry on is a reliable vertebrae cracker at best, unless the pre twang tow speed was north of 65kts.

Piper.Classique - couldn't agree more. Particularly ref 747 circuits. A mate of mine crunched into a field because the engine quit downwind and he couldn't make the airfield. He's excellent at mini circuits now.

P Classique

My comment was a broader one than just specific to this thread and shutting this particular engine down. Obviously anything done for real will carry more risk and if you look at my original post it did add (if you survive):E
But then if anything happens for real later in your flying it will carry more risk than if you have never experienced it before.
The biggest fear of all is fear of the unknown and if pilot are taught and left with a big dollop of unknown they are not confident pilots and this goes for full stalls spins strong winds, shear, icing etc etc etc i.e. all the things we will probably deal with later on our own.
nut yes if you are going to teach something with an element of risk take all precautions to minimise that risk.

Pace

Yes, yes, and yes! Let's teach pilots, not Sunday drivers.

When I used to instruct, years ago, I almost always did this to my primary students at least once. Note, I always had a suitable landing field in range, we never stopped the prop, and we never actually continued the exercise to landing in that condition. The point of the exercise was to see if the student remembered their training, and found the offending fuel selector in the OFF position, or if they just sat there imitating a goldfish, (mouth moving and no sound.) Most often, I got the goldfish reaction! :} I do think it was a worthwhile exercise, it drove home the point to follow your training and procedures, and to FLY the airplane. Any actual practice forced landings were done with the engine idling and my hand on or near the throttle. I also never had an engine so much as sputter momentarily when the fuel was turned back on. (These were all carbureted, simple engines.)

My first ME lesson was in an old Apache, and toward the end of the lesson, the old instructor slapped the right engine mixture back to simulate a failure. All went well until we tried to re-start same, it refused to do so. After an uneventful SE landing at nearest airport, some 10 miles away, we found the mixture control cable broken off at the carb. So my first ME lesson was quite a learning experience. ;)

Ok, let's remember that the OP was talking about an Instructor turning the fuel off. I am still struggling to understand why that would teach me anything (other than the instructor has poor judgement).

Regarding flying in bad weather/strong winds and experiencing spins etc, I can tell you that nearly all the GA pilots I know go for 60 mins max when the weather is reasonably ok (I work at an aero club). And why shouldn't they? Unless you are very well off, it is reasonable to wait for good weather so you (and your passengers) can enjoy the flight.

Nothing wrong with that.

DeeCee

my apologies for the comments earlier :ok: We had a thread a while ago from a training pilot who was scared stiff of stalling and when he was told flying solo to practice a few stalls was still scared stiff.
it transpired that he was scared stiff because all his training revolved around recovery at the incipient and he was worried sick of what happened if he went beyond the incipient or even into a spin by accident.
He jumped at the suggestion of going with an aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic certified aircraft so he could see and experience what lay beyond and experience the worst that could happen.
even with a spin I ask should a pilot get into such a situation how would they identify whether they were in a spin or spiral dive?
There were a couple of fatal very tragic accidents in PC12s where loss of control at altitude resulted in failure of the pilots to recover and I wonder whether this was partially due to too much emphasis on systems and the automatics and not enough on good old handling techniques.

it also like simulating engine failure in a twin! you cannot beat shutting down an engine for real and also identify why the engine has failed fuel is one.
I agree in a single you have to be very cautious about when and where you do such a thing and over a very long runway would be ideal.

Pace