Flight Test & Engine out
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Flight Test & Engine out (Video added)
During my flight test last year December, my instructor turned both fuel tanks off whilst I was flying (unbeknown to me as the are located behind us in the aircraft) and I was expected to perform an emergency landing at our airfield. I noticed the propeller was stationery and realising what happened, restarted the aircraft and performed a normal circuit.
Has anyone else experienced this, either during a flight test or been in a real emergency of this sort?
I will post a video shortly of this experience once it's ready.
It is a long video - the highlights are:
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s
Has anyone else experienced this, either during a flight test or been in a real emergency of this sort?
I will post a video shortly of this experience once it's ready.
It is a long video - the highlights are:
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s
Last edited by sab444; 12th Jan 2014 at 09:25. Reason: add video and note
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Hmmmmm. Far be it from me to pass judgement on others. However, what I will say is this: Surely, the job of an instructor/examiner is to provide a learning experience for (or assess) the student, while managing the risks associated with it?
In my mind, shutting off the fuel and causing the engine to actually stop (particularly in a single) is increasing the risk you are exposing yourself and your student to for how much extra training benefit??...
I won't say any more than that, as I wasn't there, but thought I would throw that thought in early!
In my mind, shutting off the fuel and causing the engine to actually stop (particularly in a single) is increasing the risk you are exposing yourself and your student to for how much extra training benefit??...
I won't say any more than that, as I wasn't there, but thought I would throw that thought in early!
When I was a Chief flying instructor if any of my instructors had done something that stupid I would have immediately fired them.
The fellow who ran the flying school where I did my PPL had that habit when he was flying as examiner. If you stayed awake during his ground school, you would know that was one of his tricks
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Seems a rather odd post. 'Fuel tank selector behind us' what is aircraft type please?
'Instructor did as as emergency landing exercise ' shutting off the fuel is not going to stop the engine immediately, if you were in the landing pattern it could have stopped very inconveniently at low level.
'I noticed the propellor had stopped' thought you would have noticed the engine spluttering to a stop before that.
Looking forward to the vid
'Instructor did as as emergency landing exercise ' shutting off the fuel is not going to stop the engine immediately, if you were in the landing pattern it could have stopped very inconveniently at low level.
'I noticed the propellor had stopped' thought you would have noticed the engine spluttering to a stop before that.
Looking forward to the vid
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Seems a rather odd post. 'Fuel tank selector behind us' what is aircraft type please?
'Instructor did as as emergency landing exercise ' shutting off the fuel is not going to stop the engine immediately, if you were in the landing pattern it could have stopped very inconveniently at low level.
'I noticed the propellor had stopped' thought you would have noticed the engine spluttering to a stop before that.
Looking forward to the vid
Seems a rather odd post. 'Fuel tank selector behind us' what is aircraft type please?
'Instructor did as as emergency landing exercise ' shutting off the fuel is not going to stop the engine immediately, if you were in the landing pattern it could have stopped very inconveniently at low level.
'I noticed the propellor had stopped' thought you would have noticed the engine spluttering to a stop before that.
Looking forward to the vid
Unless you were super slow on descent the prop would have to be feathered for it to stop windmilling.
BTW intentionally starving an engine of fuel to 'simulate' an engine failure (without adequate height to perform an air start in the event of electrical failure) is in my book a inexcusable, the risk involved is exponentially greater than the reward gained for the student.
Its not that everything went fine the last ten times they did it......its the final time that they do it they have to explain.............. and only if they are lucky/unlucky enough to explain it.
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Thought I should mention that we were flying at 3000' and were well within easy gliding range of the airfield. With every approach during training I was expected to glide (with the engine set to idle) from abeam the runway threshold through the rest of the downwind leg, the base leg and final leg to touchdown. The aircraft is an Aeroprakt A22 light sport aircraft . The video should be ready to post by Monday
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Instructors training techniques all vary in my experience , the good instructors leave an indelible mark on you a long time after you've gained your licence , when things have got challenging in the cockpit , bad weather ,icing , rough running engine etc, there voice sometimes rings loud in your ears when you need it most ! I'm not sure of the wisdom of turning the fuel off even at 3000ft in glide range of the field ,poor airmanship shouts at me ! . I had an experience a few years ago with an instructor in California , night flight from las vagas to San Diego in a beech duchess the weather in palomar was fog 1500 meters vis low ceiling tops at about 4000ft ( not unusual in Feb) the airport is surrounded by high ground up to 5000 ft , last but one flight of an intense IR course with what I still view was an excellent instructor , but whom I realised at that point went a bit to far , as we were about to turn inbound on the procedure above cloud he reached to pull the right mixture leaver to idle cut off , I asked politely in a loud voice "don't do it " too late the the starboard engine ground to a halt ! yes I did the drills as taught yes I flew the approach on one engine to minimums and landed safely . What did I learn ? I had been trained very well , I gained confidence in my ability ...... I also learned that instructors even good ones can make very bad decisions, had we gone missed on the approach we could not get out of the situation as the climb performance on a duchess single engine is bad at best, instructors Have no right to play with your life! training should be done in as safer manner as possible , my advice get another instructor !
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An instructor did this once with me at a safe altitude and we could've landed easily at a huge military runway below. We did it only for a short time. The learning experience was that, in a Piper Tomahawk, it takes as long as 40 seconds from fuel shutoff to engine-out and the vertical speed will decrease from 900ft/min to 1000ft/min, compared to an idling engine. With the delay beeing that long I do believe that a pilot can forget about it if the workload is high. I learned from it that I only switch tanks if I have a minute to keep an eye on the engine. Also, conrtary to a post above, the engine doesn't sputter. After 40 seconds of cruise power it simply became silent within a second or two.
I think my instructor showed good airmanship with the decision making: the military airfield, altitude et cetera. The flight was safe.
With the wrong instructor, of course, it could be dangerous.
I think my instructor showed good airmanship with the decision making: the military airfield, altitude et cetera. The flight was safe.
With the wrong instructor, of course, it could be dangerous.
In the UK it could be an offence:
Endangering safety of an aircraft
137 A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an
aircraft, or any person in an aircraft.
Endangering safety of any person or property
138 A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger
any person or property.
137 A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an
aircraft, or any person in an aircraft.
Endangering safety of any person or property
138 A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger
any person or property.
I think that for an FI at a good height over a large useable runway, you'd struggle to make a criminal charge stick. However, he might still be being silly.
I had an FI turn the switches off on me many years ago to make a point. We were overhead a 4x1 mile area of landable beach, and it was certainly not endangering anything, but did teach me something about handling and performance engine off. Landed, re-started, flew home.
G
I had an FI turn the switches off on me many years ago to make a point. We were overhead a 4x1 mile area of landable beach, and it was certainly not endangering anything, but did teach me something about handling and performance engine off. Landed, re-started, flew home.
G
I had this done by a very experienced ex RAF instructor in 1964 - but the engine was NOT allowed to stop - it was in a Jackeroo.
After allowing my licence to lapse for 20 years, and re-doing it, I was being checked out on a C150 in Oklohoma when the engine note changed. I glanced at the instructor, noted his expression, and distracted him while I turned the fuel back on. (We were overhead a strip.)
After allowing my licence to lapse for 20 years, and re-doing it, I was being checked out on a C150 in Oklohoma when the engine note changed. I glanced at the instructor, noted his expression, and distracted him while I turned the fuel back on. (We were overhead a strip.)
Re the prop stopping, it's got a Rotax, so, depending on the gearbox I would expect it to stop fairly quickly. Stopping the engine in flight is common practice on microlight instructor course in France, but I never heard of anyone doing it to a student.
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Flight Test & Engine out (Video added)
I have added the video to my original post; it is a long video - the highlights are:
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s
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Interesting about the time delay. I did this by accident once in a PA28: turned from L to Off instead of R. As I remember the incident, the engine ran down immediately, and only about 2 seconds passed before I realised what I'd done and turned it back. But it could have been longer - memory is an unreliable witness...
Nice video Sab, you appear a very cool calm operator! Wish we had your weather right now. As you've probably guessed, turning the taps off here in Blighty (much like adding milk after the tea) is considered a bit left field - probably to the relief of the AAIB.
What's the background to the instructor choosing this method of gliding selection, i.e., does the type you fly have a history of fuel cocks vibrating closed? It didn't look like you were too surprised by it and the instructor mentioned 'everyone expects it now' which to my mind negates the exercise.
To answer your question, I've only ever had the throttle chopped on me during check rides to drop the field landing hint, no-one has been brave enough to turn things off. Mind you, if you flew with me you'd want to leave things switched on frankly!
What's the background to the instructor choosing this method of gliding selection, i.e., does the type you fly have a history of fuel cocks vibrating closed? It didn't look like you were too surprised by it and the instructor mentioned 'everyone expects it now' which to my mind negates the exercise.
To answer your question, I've only ever had the throttle chopped on me during check rides to drop the field landing hint, no-one has been brave enough to turn things off. Mind you, if you flew with me you'd want to leave things switched on frankly!
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Sab
I am amazed at how good your videos are and how well edited they are.
You are very presentable for sake of another word and these could almost be part of a series of educational videos with a very presentable presenter
As for cutting the engine completely there are two arguments.
yes the risk factor increases and in these days of a liability society I am torn between practising things for real which will make you a better pilot (if you survive) and the baby flight instructing which happens nowadays!
No spins!!! incipient this and that
I had old time examiners and we would take twins up to 10K and wring the necks out of the things including full engine shutdowns etc.
as I said if you survive you will be a better pilot for it and I am torn between the argument of teaching pilots to fly or churning out aircraft drivers! sadly the leaning is going more towards turning out aircraft drivers not pilots!
Pace
I am amazed at how good your videos are and how well edited they are.
You are very presentable for sake of another word and these could almost be part of a series of educational videos with a very presentable presenter
As for cutting the engine completely there are two arguments.
yes the risk factor increases and in these days of a liability society I am torn between practising things for real which will make you a better pilot (if you survive) and the baby flight instructing which happens nowadays!
No spins!!! incipient this and that
I had old time examiners and we would take twins up to 10K and wring the necks out of the things including full engine shutdowns etc.
as I said if you survive you will be a better pilot for it and I am torn between the argument of teaching pilots to fly or churning out aircraft drivers! sadly the leaning is going more towards turning out aircraft drivers not pilots!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Jan 2014 at 10:41.