Traffic and basic the in the Uk is no use to man nor beast for any form of seperation.

Your on your own.

Mad jock I agree basic service is pointless but traffic has some merit. You have extra data can make decisions using it.

traffic does give you some info but its not guaranteed. They will try and let you know but if they don't that's just plane tough you still on your tod.

Let's take a look at the caveats in CAP774 - 'UK Flight Information Services'

Chapter 1 - Service Principles

Within Class F and G airspace, regardless of the service being provided, pilots are ultimately responsible for collision avoidance

Chapter 2 - Basic Service

The avoidance of other traffic is solely the pilot’s responsibility.

Chapter 3 - Traffic Service

the avoidance of other traffic is ultimately the pilot’s responsibility.


Often the very participation in these optional services creates additional, and often un-necessary, workload (RTF, plogs, referring to gizmos, calculations etc) which detracts from the lookout required.

They have got you by the short and curlys whatever happens.
The one which you hit will be the one you didn't see regardless of whether you have been warned or not.
Not everybody will be squawking or have FLARM etc, so it's down to Mark One Eyeball.

Yep talkdown treat any service as a bonus but presume your on your tod.

When sitting in the right-seat I am frequently dismayed, nay, even frustrated, to hear the driver call x (totally irrelevant) unit for y (inappropriate) service, then witness the subsequent degradation of lookout, cockpit workload management and listening out. I see over-reliance, and aircraft are often detected far too late because the limitations of ATSOCA are not understood. The distraction of the receipt of ATSOCA itself is often contributory to poor lookout.

Whilst I agree that you are on your own, if you listen out properly at least this gives you a heads up on where and what height other traffic using the service is and should give you indications of if you need to look for them and where to look, so, whilst no use for any positive separation, very useful to know where other traffic might be.

The fundamental point is that for all practical purposes except under IFR in controlled airspace the pilot is responsible for separation.

Traffic service can help with info, deconfliction just gets you vectored all over the sky avoiding traffic unknown to the controller.

Nope even then you have the responsibility to see and avoid.

There are 2 ways of operating.

1. Presume everyone is out to get you and you are on your tod. When in VMC in what ever class of airspace head out the window watching for people trying to mug you.

2. Thinking you are safe just because you are talking to someone.

Both my airporox's have been in the UK under the highest level of service available in class G, Advisory and de-confliction. One of them we would have hit if we hadn't spotted it.

While it may be great to know where the traffic is if you focus on that sector and ignore the others your setting your self up for getting mugged from the opposite direction.

Totally agree with mad jock, and that's speaking as an ATSOCA provider since '82. It's the devil's own job, damned if you do, damned if you don't. (CAS high level sectors are a comparative walk in the park...)

Although i have relatively low hours all have been done at a busy aerodrome. One thing that I realized again today is situational awareness is great but always be prepared to change your mental picture, all too often people are not actually where they are reporting they are!

That's a good trick under IFR in IMC in controlled airspace without TCAS.

You can only do your best and to be honest there hasn't been any mid air's in IMC for about 50 years or so in the UK. So IMC is the safest place to be in both controlled and uncontrolled airspace.

Now, don't encourage more pilots to fly IMC - we rely on them staying VFR below!

TCAS is a useful tool but it doesn't half make you realise how many aircraft come close - the ones you otherwise would have not known about. The longer I'm in this game the more I realise the big sky theory is a flawed concept. :ooh:

I wonder how many midairs are caused by autopilots?
Once the auto is on many pilots are heads down examining charts, making calculations or doing the Sunday times crossword puzzles :ugh:
No auto and maybe they would look out more !

Nah they don't they have there heads in looking at the dials completely ignoring the best horizon that god can give you.

I lost count the number of times I have said "we are VMC in class G look out the :mad:ing window"

The rubbish that comes back like we are IFR so have to use the instruments and the like.

Thanks guys.

Nae bother,

Your fear is sort of justified and is healthy if it makes you have a good look out, but not a reason to not go flying.

Just be aware that a good look out is your best defence but if some one is willing to give you a service, yes this is a good thing. Mainly to be able to issue a mayday if you so required but if you presume your going to get no help off them it won't come as a surprise when you don't, and of course if they do help you out its a bonus.

Almost all midairs are of aircraft not on autopilot, the only two I can think of (in the last 5 years or so), where both aircraft were on autopilot for most/all the run up to the accident, were the Brazilian head on between a CAT and a corporate jet and the überlingen crash between two jets - in the second case both on TCAS and under radar control.

The UK ones are mostly GA GA in or near the pattern, doing aerobatics, or low level maneuvering GA vs fast jet. I doubt any were on autopilot other than maybe G-EYES (the Practice ILS calibrator at Coventry).

Midairs are most likely on a gin clear day at relatively low level with people flying by looking out the window (which is not in any way to see not looking is safer!). But they also are thankfully rair.

I had a fright yesterday and it was a seriously close one!

Two of us in a Robin 200 (myself and a VERY experienced instructor) near Clacton. We were in the process of doing a clearing turn prior to some stalls when a Cessna passed directly below at I would estimate no more than 50' !!! Frightened the Cr@p out of me! Especially as neither of us saw it until it passed underneath and would have had no time to react. Worse still, we were both looking extra hard for other aircraft as part of the training checks!

I had one near miss years ago and now this one. Both in areas where flying schools tend to do excersises ... Must be a cautionary note in that surely?

SS