Clarification please - joining the circuit
 

I hope maybe someone could clarify something for me. I did a check flight at an airfield and, after doing the usual practice EFATO, stall recovery, I was asked to return to the strip to do some circuits. I had taken off and received info concerning QFE, runway in use and that the circuit was left hand. Th runway take off direction was south westerly and I was now north west of the field. To return to the field, my intention was to head south, pass the airfield with it on my left (ie, with seperation from crosswind), then turn north east, report downwind etc and join the circuit.

Perhaps I should add: the plate for the airfield said specifically "parachute jumping possible" - and they were jumping yesterday - hence under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed, only base / downwind. So far so good.

However the FI checking me out said to me: why so difficult? Just turn SSW and join RIGHT DOWNWIND. I asked the question twice: The airfield information is: circuit is lefthand, parachuting in place, hence no deadside joins. I headed south and went around the circuit - maybe took 4 minutes longer but I felt more at ease doing it that way.

Now to my question: Surely the join I was expected to do was contrary to what was written in the plates? Or can you join a circuit to land on a right downwind, even if deadside joins are forbidden and the circuit is lefthand?

Not quite law yet:
All turns should be in the direction of the traffic pattern!

Thought as much, still don't understand why the FI would have required me to fly against this and join from the deadside and on a right hand circuit..... Any ideas??? Apart from the fact that it was a shorter route to the runway......

If you're new to the airfield it makes a lot of sense to fly wide around the circuit (possibly even outside the ATZ) and join in the prescribed manner. Which in this case seems to be a direct downwind join.

The instructor may well have a lot more local knowledge and know from experience which shortcuts are acceptable and which are not.

Furthermore, was this an A/G, AFIS or ATC airfield?

Personally I am always wary of non-standard things at an A/G field because radio usage seems to be relatively poor - not to mention the no radio aircraft around. But with ATC fields you can generally ask for anything as long as it doesn't cause a conflict or noise abatement issue. Where I trained (KISM, full ATC) they had both left and right hand circuits in operation simultaneously for one single runway as a matter of course. Which circuit you got was determined by which direction you came from and nothing else. Worked a treat. If you were to join final behind an aircraft on the opposite circuit and you didn't see it, you just had to say so and ATC would call your base turn, and so forth.

It was a typical G/A field with call sign "Radio". Having said this, I'm used to flying to similar airstrips here in Germany - Koblenz, Melle both spring to mind - which have both left and right circuits in use and am ok to being advised which to join, however I have never gone to an airfield before, be told "left hand circuit in use" and be expected to join right downwind, hence my question - I wondered whether this was a UK thing, that you can receive "airfield information" and then ignore it......

A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal and can be an easy and quick short cut home if there is nobody else (or very few) in the circuit.

BUT, I can testify that it can scare the S**T out of a student coming left downwind just about to turn base to hear the words G-**** joining right base. It happened to me whilst I was flying my solo circuits and I extended downwind whilst my instructor had a robust conversation with the arriving pilot on the ground.

UK Rules of the Air
:rolleyes:

2 s

Ok thats a good source (albeit not very well worded for an aerodrome that has a right hand circuit) :).

So if the local ATC authorise a right base join to a left hand circuit its for sure ok.

The local "sky god" who practised this around my way pointed out that he did only turn left once he was in the circuit and therefore conformed with the rules of the air (but, of course, there were no left hand turns for him to make ..) and also that it was only an equivalent to a straight in which few(er) people tend to bitch about.

My guess is that there may be the classic disjoint that so often leads to soooo much debate here between the sentiment of the laws and the interpretation

Must admit, as I said earlier, its not my favourite join but, it is used

Not just that - it's the law and entirely logical. NB all those whingers who complain about how boring and irrelevant Air Law is.

Why? If a right hand circuit is in force, it directly implies that ground signals should indicate this - unless there is an ATC unit, of course.

Of course - that's what the law says. But note - ATC - not FIS or AGCS.

2 s

You said it! Its not legal so you have increased your limited knowledge.

I still don't understand why the plate says due to parachuting, no dead side / overhead joins yet the FI wanted me to join the circuit from the dead side.

To visualise let's assume our airfield has runway orientation of 24 / 06, when 24 is in use, a left hand circuit is required and a right hand circuit when 06 in use. Based on the plates, surely joining right downwind runway 24 is a dead side join and hence illegal?????

Whopity - agree have increased knowledge BUT we have also have found out it IS legal if ATC agree it.

Quite often an airfield that has mixed traffic will declare "No deadside" to prevent aircraft from doing a "Standard Overhead Join". This is a locally produced safety instruction and could possibly result in a charge of endangerment if there was an incident involving a breach of this rule however; it is not illegal. The Rules of the Air are enforceable in law and you can be charged with breaching the rule if there is an incident. It is a rule you could break and get away with until something goes wrong and then it will just be another charge added to the list.

Unfortunately, many pilots seem to be unaware of some fundamental Rules of the Air which are there to provide a minimum level of safety and are enforceable in law.

If there is no parachuting then joining from the deadside might not be an issue but all turns within the vicinity of the aerodrome (ATZ) must be in the circuit direction unless cleared by ATC.

Probably best to ask the FI, he is the only one who will actually know why.

I know it's a long time since I've flown but haven't they got rid of the 'overhead join' yet?

Why do you imply that it should be dispensed with?

2 s

How else would you find out whats going on on the ground? They haven't got rid of the Magnetic Compass either!

Even worse, the FAA now have something similar.

first off this instructor isn't that bright...doing it their way would give them 4 minutes less pay...so be suspect!!!!

second off, if it is left hand pattern, entry on the 45 is prefered to downwind, then base then final

and really, you guys on that side of the pond talk real funny...deadside? circuit?

I published an unfamiliar airport entry pattern technique that always works and you clodd hoppers can't seem to grasp it.

here is some free advice...ask three other instructors at the airfield in question and see what they think.

the one that agrees with you is your new instructor.

Not all instructors are in it for the money...

Not over here it isn't...

I think you'll find it's you lot who talk funny...

Congratulations - nice way to ingratiate yourself

Curious logic there...

stevelup...

I"ve been flying longer than you have been alive...your views are typically european and that is why your planes and aviation community suck.

so, go have some spotted dick and leave flying to real pilots.

And your views are typically American, very narrow minded and an unwillingness to accept that any way other than your own is any good.

Just because you have been flying for longer than he has been alive does not mean you are any good at it or that your opinions are more valid. In fact it shows from your previous post that you blurt out an answer that is wrong because you believe you know it all as your so experienced. When told what you wrote is wrong, instead of accepting the correction you attack the person who corrected you. Great personality trait for a pilot. I hope when an FO points out your doing something wrong you don't attack him, as how dare he correct someone with such experience as yours.

He's been retired for years due to health reasons. Just a bitter old man - best thing we can do is humour him...

Sevenstrokeroll.

Bet these stupid english youngsters don't even know what a paradiddle is :rolleyes:

Both of us, from each side of the pond, have national traits that seem queer to others. That doesn't make us stupid just different.

We all post things on here without thinking sometimes (q.v. my post a few back) but it's a sign of a real man when you can listen to another's differing opinion and be tolerant, also to admit when what you have said might have been inaccurate.

So cool it man, with due respect to your age, lets live in harmony and respect each other's opinions even if they do not coincide with our own.

I have a better idea. Let's take a look at the ideas and ways of all the posters.

The original poster had a fair question. He was truly puzzled why someone would encourage something that even his level of piloting skills and knowledge indicated were WRONG>

There were some suspicious things that my vast experience picked up on and I mentioned it in a semi humorous way to make sure IT STUCK in the original poster's mind.

And I get attacked. Well I can take it. And the other posters are right...age and experience don't make you a better pilot than someone else. But when you are a better pilot than someone else and you also have age and experience on your side that is quite a benefit . I'm sure even German and British pilots have seen the poster with the biplane in the tree speaking of bold pilots and old pilots and that there aren't any old bold pilots.

Back in prehistoric times I had warned a fine student, someone who spent time and money getting to be a fine pilot...someone who had pulled himself up from poverty to become a wealthy man how to stay safe. I warned him that some pilots would enter an uncontrolled airport traffic pattern (yes pattern, not circuit) in such a way as to increase the possibility of mid air collision. I also warned him about stall recovery when avoiding a collision.

Two weeks later he encountered someone entering the pattern incorrectly at a high elevation airport. Head on collision course on base leg, he correctly on left base, the intruder incorrectly on right base. He maneuvered and avoided collision and while intensely maneuvering he approached a stall but recovered safely and landed.

I don't play around when I fly. and when I hear stupid things I call em like I see em...even if they are in other countries.

and lets talk about the peanut gallery...sloppy joe and stevelup...yeah they love to talk. Oh imagine a flight instructor not in it for the money (puhleaze)I know flight instructors are not well paid, but any flight instructor who takes a shortcut is not teaching a student how to be safe and that costs more money in the long run.

and yes I'm an American. Remember us? We invented the airplane.

I don't like you stevelup...and I sure don't respect you and the same for sloppyjoe. And I do know all about CRM and making sure a F/O can speak to me about anything of concern to make the flight safer.

So many times people make up stuff to cover their own inadequate performance as a pilot. They comment as if I am someone they have actually flown with. But of course we never will fly together. My airline only hires very experienced pilots, not the cadet boys of the european squadrons.

We hire people who can fly and think, not just push buttons.


And dear funfly, yes I know all about paradiddles, flams, ratamacues, lesson no. 25's (which the brits call the rat-a -tap). But I disagree with you about peaceful coexistence.

The likes of stevelup and sloppyjoe are just fooling themselves. They are trying to make up for failures by ''talking big''.

I admire the brits for inventing radar, and the lion's share of the jet engine . And especially for the few!

And the germans are damn smart, swept wings, and so much more.

But when it comes to flying, they might learn a bit more from us, should I say U.S.?

Note to readers:

"vast experience" may not mean experience in aviation, so buyer beware. My modest aviation experience causes me to know that really knowledgeable pilots who post here are very courteous, and have a positive mentoring communication style.

"semi humorous" may mean mostly not.

"IT STUCK" makes me think of a knife attack. Removed during medical procedure, never forgotten, but only remembered with distrust and disdain...

If I recall, I have about one year less flying experience than the other poster. I know that many younger, and less experienced pilots are much more fresh, and recently trained than I am. I delight in considering their opinions as my peers, as I have forgotten more than I should have over the years.... 20 years before earning my commercial license, I did training for the instructor, who trained me for my commercial. What goes around, comes around....

You are absolutely just plain wrong there. I know many instructors who have no interest in money whatsoever.

The feeling is 100% mutual so at least we agree on something!

There's only one person 'talking big' here and it's not myself or sloppyjoe!

Just for the record, ICAO...
;)

2 s

I think that our friend from Fort Sheridan has probably been right in everything he has ever done in life and will continue to be so. :hmm:

I'm not concerned about anything Sevenstrokeroll wrote concerning stevelup but what angers me is for him to comment about:

even his level of piloting skills

The term "what the F***" springs to mind here.

How do you know what "my level of piloting skills are"? For all you know, I could be a highly experienced german pilot - after all, I live in germany - who has NEVER flown outside of Germany but whose skills possibly approach those of you, our illustrious SevenStrokeRoll.

If you look at my original and follow up posts, at no time did I say "I'm a newbie, I have no idea", instead I indicated that I had carried out a CHECK FLIGHT to allow me to charter planes from an airfield outside my local field. The fact that it was my first experience flying in the UK made me ask a question about the joining technique, after all, each country can have slightly different variations from the same theme yet from this question you discern that my skills are limited is, to say the least, damn patronising.

Probably the most useful comment came from Choxolate - I will ask the instructor when I see him next - probably next weekend, I hope, if the weather is good. He was unfortunately in a rush to get away, which might have explained his eagerness to get back on the ground asap and going for right downwind rather than left but I still think joining on the right when the circuit is announced as left hand is breaking some rule or other and downright dangerous.

Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate it.....

Don't take it personally. Just remember that everyone in the world has a level of piloting skill which is inferior to his.

Honestly, only your instructor can answer the question.

My inferior piloting skills would suggest to me that as you joined downwind, you wouldn't have been 'in the circuit' until the point you joined, therefore any question of illegality is a bit spurious. As long as all your subsequent turns are in the correct direction, I can't see what the issue is.

Unless I'm completely missing something, there is nothing wrong with making a right turn to join downwind for a left hand circuit? I do it every single time I approach my home airfield from the south east and 22 (left hand) is in use.

Steve

We have this silly antiquated form of joining called the overhead! a load of bees high wing and low wing all heading to one spot overhead the airfield at supposedly 2000 feet.
I was once downwind at 1000 feet with a 1400 foot cloudbase and one idiot cut straight through the downwind at 1200 feet stating he was joining overhead:ugh:
From the overhead you then carry out several 90 degree blind turns mixing high and low wing aircraft just to get onto final.
It was a system developed when aircraft had no radios and were so poorly equipt that you needed to go to the overhead to make sure you were where you thought you were and could examine the signal box.

There are variations on the overhead as in your situation and on a busy active day it safer to follow the procedure.
No traffic do what the hell you want but do tell what you are doing

Pace

At an uncontrolled aerodrome, there can always be a point at which a distinct potential confliction can occur, however you join. However, with an active circuit, better perhaps to remain above circuit height (i.e. an overhead join) and at least have the opportunity to observe the traffic established in the circuit before descending to join it. I say this in the absence of a 45 degree leg to the downwind being a promulgated procedure in the UK - but watch this space as a couple of collisions in the circuit in recent years have precipitated a review of procedures.
Not sure what a "there was I... and this idiot..." story proves, apart from the fact that there will always be idiots; plus there needs to be a review of circuit procedures, better understanding and better training.

2 s

Steve,

I can only presume that your Instructor felt that there would be no conflicting traffic (or jumpers) and wanted to get down quickly. I think that you did the right thing as caution is always best if you are not absolutely sure.

In small aerodrome left hand circuits I have seen people joining left base and straight in but never right base. Most of the time they would announce the fact and add 'giving way to circuit traffic'.

Personally I am sorry that this thread degenerated into a slanging match. Usually, amongst the flying community, there is great respect from both sides of the Atlantic.

so much fine entertainment...so much fine excuse making...very little real knowledge of flight from the peanut gallery across the pond.


pilot DAR...wow, courteous pilots.....I must learn how to drink my tea with my little finger out whilst balancing a small piece of cake on my knee.

and when I speak of experience on this forum, I do mean aviation experience.


what I've noticed is that people on this forum make excuses, and pat themselves on the back with a few hours of flying experience. i've spent my life in aviation and have even been invited on numerous news shows to explain and comment on tragedies in aviation.


what goes around comes around? fine...excuses and talk are cheap...experience isn't.

Haha! I drink my tea with my little finger stuck out, 'cause it's too big to fit into the tiny handle of those dinky tea cups. To be courteous, I smile, and say "thank you" to the person serving the tea!

A person with a few flying hours deserves a pat on the back, the same way our children do when they master a modest skill - it builds confidence!

Personally, I have only been invited to comment on aviation tragedies on the news three times, each time, 'cause I just got done helping to clean one up - but I've cleaned up many more than that, and seek to kindly share my knowledge to prevent more!

Just the same as any other industry which is based in both recreational and commercial activity, it is to a large degree sustained by the continued participation of newcomers. I wish to sustain and encourage general aviation, as it has become the professional side of my life. I need new people coming in, to be clients for the service I offer...

Most of the fine things that have happened in my life can be traced back to a favourable relationship with an aviation person - some younger and less experienced than I - and yes, a few of those from PPRuNers! So, I'm going to build relationships, not knock them down in a vain attempt to appear superior.

I will hardly discourage, or appear to demean or turn away, other pilots of any experience, who come here to participate in good faith. They could be my next client, but they are certainly someone's next client in aviation!

So like a very few who have gone before you into the annals of "oh yeah, I remember that guy!"(Guppy and David Houle come to mind) strokeroll will one day fade into the dark history of PPRuNe, to be nearly forgotten.... appropriately!

My home base has a roughly East/West runway. All circuits are to the south of the field.

We don't mind aircraft arriving from the North positioning for a right base when it's a left hand circuit or a right base when it's a left hand circuit.
Just so long as they are sensible about it. It saves time and fuel.

It may seem to some that they are making a turn against the circuit traffic, but they aren't 'in the circuit' until they have established on final.

In many years of flying I've only ever had one really close call. I had just taken off and was at around 150 feet on the climb-out when a military fast jet went under me doing a high speed pass down the reciprocal.

He was talking to the right airfield but looking at the wrong one.
Duxford-Cambridge. He was an American.:=

I'm a Brit. Remember us? We invented the aeroplane.:rolleyes:

Sir George Cayley, 6th Baronet (British inventor and scientist) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

I'm English. We invented the Americans :ok:

So you're responsible!

I'm Canadian, we just wandered off into the forest while the English were inventing the Americans!

I think this thread is a good example of rubbish and childish behaviour.

I had the honor of meeting and talking with a Great American pilot Neil Armstrong a decade ago.

One of the most courteous and humble people I had ever met and who talked to me as a pilot as if we were at the same level yet he was a Moons distance superior to me!

Good saying " There are those who have to shout to be heard because no one listens and those who only whisper and are heard because everyone listens".

Pace