Too high on final
 

Hello!

I have a question for you experienced folks:
You are on final, full flaps set in a non-complex SEPL (C172, PA28), power idle. You judge where you will end up touching down and realize this will be too late. So you are too high on final and want to get on the correct glidepath again.

How do you do this best/what are the pros and cons?

1) Push nose down to get to the correct path again, relying on full flaps to prevent getting too fast.
2) Pull so the speed decreases and the glidpath steepens to catch the correct glidepath again.
3) Something else?

Thanks for your input!

Just go around and try again?

Depends on level of experience/confidence in ability - but if in doubt (as above) go around.

Safest way is to just go around, but every situation is different i.e if your long final short final and depends on how high you are etc.. but if ever unsure just go around and live to fight another day

3) Sideslip?

When i learned i asked a similar question to which the answer was 'An experienced pilot could consider other option such as a sideslip to get back on glide path' and I said 'would that work' and the reply was 'Yes but an experienced pilot would not have allowed themselves to get into that position in the first place'

When in doubt go around.

Sideslip on a Cessna with full flaps is only a good idea if you're not the owner of the airplane. On some models it's not allowed, on others not recommended. In any case it is not good for your flaps.

What works pretty well in a Cessna is pushing the nose down, it won't get much faster. With a bit of experience, you will try harder before going around. It costs time, money and makes a lot of noise. You still need good judgement though...

the answer to the question is when in doubt - don't.

But it sounds to me that if you are in a 172 at idle power with full flaps and still not going to make the runway you are pretty high and that has presumably been developing for a minute or two.

Maybe you want to review your base and final technique and be more aware of what "picture" you should expect.

If it's an older 172 with 40 degree barn doors, you won't need to side slip. Just pull the power back and it'll drop like a brick!

Not that old chestnut again! :rolleyes:


As for the OP, depends how confident you are chucking the aircraft around at low level, personally I'd happily throw some S-turns or a big boot of sideslip but even so there is a point where its beyond recovery and a go-around is in order....

Sopey, if you think ZV drops like a brick with full flaps you want to try a Tri Pacer witht the power off and on the draggy end of the curve....its something to behold! Great fun though! :}

Be careful what aircraft you are in.

On some small singles a sidslip with full flaps can catch you out in a big way.

I was firmly told never to do it in an AA5. Just relax, abandon it if it does not look right and go around and have another go.

C

Going around is the safest option, usually.

One "more interesting" method is to sideslip, but that option is type dependent; some types don't like that due to the flaps messing up the airflow over the tail end. I never do slipping in the TB20.

My favourite method is to do S-turns. Can scare passengers though :)

Fishtailing, i.e. alternative fairly rapid alternating application of rudder gets rid of excess height. (Could be described as another form of sideslip, but without crossed controls) but really as generally said above, unless totally avoidable, i.e. engine failure etc., go round again.

There are other things you can do other than side slip but not sure you should unless you have experience.
One is to increase your distance to touchdown by weaving left and right that also works if another aircraft on final is too close or you need more time for him to clear the runway.
The other is to do an orbit back onto final but that will depend where you are and is unlikely to be an option.
I can remember taking up a hold on final with ATC approval while they cleared some possible debris which had been noticed on the runway.
Both above are not advisable for novice pilots!
Personally I do not like to take full flap unless I am really fairly well assured of landing dragging in from miles out with full flap is not in my book a managed approach and unless full flap is recommended for the aircraft you can use the drag for coming back to your reference landing speed.
I also question the advisability of coming down the approach with a closed throttle as you have little way of knowing if there will be any power there when you do need it and with full flap and closed throttle you are limiting the options available to you to control speed and descent profile.

Pace

(1) works in a 172 with a long enough runway (you're likely to end up rounding out somewhat fast and using up a fair amount of runway slowing down a few feet up).

Going around always works (provided you still have a working engine).

This happened to me just a few weeks ago, when I was doing a revalidation test. I was told to do a flapless circuit and approach, and as a result misjudged things and ended up too high about half a mile from touchdown. My tester rightly ticked me off for getting too fast on the approach, but this was to get off the surplus height. We were doing the right approach speed by the time I was down to one hundred feet with a little way left to go to the numbers.

I had thought of a sideslip (which both I and the aircraft can do) but thought that this was hardly the right thing for a test. At the same time, to throw the approach away was to admit that I had got it irretrievably wrong, and this would mean a fail. So what else could be done? And come to that, where does the 'final' approach start? Half a mile out? Or when you have stabilised the speed at the right figure?

An interesting problem, and the only real answer is to get it right from the beginning. But only Allah is perfect.

Two pages from "Stick and Rudder"
 

http://db.tt/ETS7lJcN

http://db.tt/LCMfZwhN

I'd rather go with Mr. Denker on this one: More About Energy and Power [Ch. 7 of See How It Flies], certainly on an aircraft equipped with flaps (not sure whether Langewiesche isn't rather referring to a flapless aircraft, where the dive would arguably indeed not be as effective owing to the lack of additional drag).

Thanks for your replies!

Going around is always the safest option, off course. But the questions was mainly, what does work better and why?

So, to sum up the answers most have suggested to put the nose down, the flaps will take care of keeping the speed low in a cessna.
The copy of Stick and Rudder explained the slower approach a bit.

I have done a correction both ways.
In my experience in a PA28 the flaps seem not to be as effective in braking as the cessna ones, meaning that I risk going over flap-speed when pointing the nose down. In addition to that you carry great speed short before (or in) the flare, which is not so good (ballooning).
The slower approach seemed to work well for me, but there is the risk you slow down too much too close to the ground.

Off course, when the final doesn't look like it can be saved, I go around. Have done it often and will do it in the future too.

Thanks again!

Before any one else says it, a revalidation is not a test and you cannot fail it.:)

Penny I have never heard of anyone being failed on a go around as that is good airmanship if for any reason you are not happy with the approach/ landing!!!

Pace

"to throw the approach away was to admit that I had got it irretrievably wrong [and go around]" wouldn't that also show good airmanship in recognising what was wrong and dealing with it safely......even on a GST providing you explained why you were doing what you were doing would they fail you?

Obviously we had the same thought at the same time Pace, lol

Stick/ yoke fully aft. You will come down quickly! ;)

I was under the impression (folklore, not something I've read anywhere official I don't think) that you can't and won't be failed for going around, because they want pilots to believe that going around is never wrong and is always a valid option.

I really think there is only 1 answer to the question. Go Around!! Learning that discipline early in your flying carreer is vital. Trying to practice aerobatics on final is only for the very experienced or stupid. We often in flying have ambitions to fly something bigger, faster , less stable and therefore unless your approach is stable the discipline must be in training to go around.

I thought side slipping gave you a wrong airspeed indication. Because of the air blowing a bit sideways into the pitot tube.

what should come in here is that you turn to the examiner and TELL them, " I am increasing my speed to xx for this reason" - as long as you have good reasons and you inform them them I do not think they should be ticking you off.

( edited because I put in three x's and someone would have said that is too fast for a light single with flaps down!)

Sideslip. If you don't know how, ask to be shown. It's a basic pilot skill that everyone should have.

It works on all aeroplanes, even big airliners; the guy who glided the airliner for miles over the Atlantic after losing all the fuel and put it down on an island airport slipped off the excess height on final.

The ASI will tell porkies, so fly attitude to keep the speed under control - many folks have a tendency to let the nose drop in the slip, which increases speed so you'll float forever when you try to land.

To the argument 'you shouldn't be too high to start with' I say that's bollox. There's the engine failure case - keep height in hand and slip it off on final. And I remember going into Shobdon once keeping the circuit tight as is my wont in the Chippy when a bomber Cessna announced a mega-final much further out than I was. I was tight left base so commenced a go-around when the A/G reminded me of the parallel grass strip.

I chopped the power, dropped full flap again, while hoinking it round to line up with said grass strip for which I was too high. A full-rudder slip cured that and we landed just after the numbers and taxyed clear. I think I'd re-fuelled and and was well into my bacon buttie before the Bomber landed. ;)

We've all made aware of the Best Glide speed for an aircraft. So, assuming we increase or decrease the speed in relation to the best glide speed we will will Decrease the glide distance. If, we put the nose down, reduce the power and increase the speed presumably we will get rid of the height and shorten the distance to the threshold.
I've tried this in a C150 and it works. Any comments?

Go back to the school that trained you and ask them to do it properly this time

Every approach is to a go-around.
A landing off it is a bonus.

Every approach is to a go-around.
A landing off it is a bonus.

I dont think so. I fly gliders!!

You only need one engine stoppage on approach to teach the value of holding on to height until you absolutely have to get rid of it to land so I'm in favour of learning high sink rate manoeuvres and I squirm when I see singles being dragged in on 3 degree glide slopes (a misnomer if ever there was one). I fly a single and acknowledge that multi engine types may well be different.

To throw the approach away when it had gone irretrievably wrong would, to me, be a sign of good airmanship :ok:.

A forward slip is indeed a possibility for the competent, if appropriate for the type & configuration. Shoving the nose down in some types will quickly exceed the flap limiting speed & in a non-emergency situation this should be a no-no :=.

In an emergency when a go-around would be impossible or ill-advised, I'd suggest the inexperienced pilot in a simple SEP would be best advised to just shove the nose down & accept the overspeed condition.

In addition to what's been said before, may I also caution you AGAINST your option 2?

From a theoretical standpoint option two, slowing down well below minimum drag speed, should work to steepen your approach. BUT you are very, very close to the stall which means that low-level turbulence, wind shear or a gust might lead to a stall-spin scenario. Also, flying very close to the stall means you have no energy buffer to speak of to flare. And it requires quite a bit of energy to get back on the other side of the drag curve, so if you do need to execute a go-around you might not be able to do that without some significant sink, even with full power on.

My solution if I'm high (or if ATC all of a sudden asks me to do a short circuit, which really amounts to the same thing, aerodynamically) is to close the throttle, pull the nose up until the speed is below Vfe, lower the flaps all the way in one go, then push down keeping the speed just below Vfe. That will give you maximum drag and the steepest approach. And the excess speed will wash off surprisingly quickly once you round out. You can, as said, further increase drag with S-turns and/or sideslips.

But keep in mind that eventually you have to obtain a normal approach path/speed, from which you can do a normal flare and landing at your designated touchdown point. If it's a marginal-length runway don't try to recover a bad approach with these techniques. Go around and make sure the approach is OK next time.

It does in theory but i've never noticed it.its easy to over compensate and come screaming out of the sideslip at xxx kts.

If you need an asi and an altimeter to land an aircraft you haven't flown enough.

I would say slidesips as well

Last year I did a reval in a C152. went to my home strip to land, normal approach for my taildragger but too high for the 152, at 100 ft & nearly over the trees I remarked "That will do for me" & opened the throttle for a go around, Instructor said "That'll do for me too, no problems."

Hardly an answer for a student asking the question.:ugh:

Do you only ever fly from A to B if there is a runway beneath you? or do engine failures only ever occur on final approach? Might not repeated cooling engine damage as a result of making every approach a glide approach, end up giving you the very engine failure, the consequences of which you are trying to avoid? or do you in fact allow for the consequences of possible engine damage by keeping some power on? in which case you are still going to land short if it all goes quiet up front.
When one has paid for a new turbo charged engine due to poor engine temperature management, one takes a different view on these things.