My first advice to you is what others have already said, GO AROUND! It is a very rare thing to pull a good landing out of a bad approach. You are always better off going back up into the circuit/pattern and having another go.

Secondly, anything you read here is always superseded by what your instructor tells you. Never try anything without consulting with your instructor first, or better yet, get them to demonstrate something for you before you have a go yourself.

Having said that, I shall now answer your question 3. There are sideslips, something which your instructor or school may or may not teach you. If they do not then they will have their own reasons for not teaching them that you will simply have to accept and move on. The next thing that was not mentioned is S turns. I was taught this technique during my primary training instead of slipping (which I learned after I got my PPL). The pros are that you are making coordinated turns, it is quite a fun maneuver to fly and it is quite effective because you are in effect lengthening the final approach distance without gaining airspeed whilst losing height through energy sapping draggy turns. The cons, IMO it is arguably more dangerous than slipping and can only be used where there is a clear and wide approach (i.e. not into Farmer Jims 300 meter strip surrounded by trees, tall hedgerows and power lines in a river valley). It also tends to scare the hell out of non pilot passengers so you must brief them.

Hmmm. If the surroundings of the runway environment are a factor in your decision to S turn or not, you're thinking to S turn way too low! If you are so far back on a non emergency approach that you can fix it with S turns, you can probably fix it just by pulling off the rest of the power, or adding the rest of the flap. If those won't work, and you would rather not sideslip, you have no choice but to go around. The foregoing does not apply to emergency approaches, as your choices are already rather limited. That's why you practice those regularly - right?

In my opinion, S turns are one way of probably turning a stabilized approach into a non stabilized approach. Perhaps tolerable, but a less than ideal thing to do. A sideslip keeps the approach stabilized the whole time. You can enter, intensify and recover it instantly, and maintaining your alignment with the runway centerline at all times should be assumed, or something else is wrong too.

There is a lot of chatter about how scary sideslips can be - nonsense. Yes, some 172's are placarded to "avoid" with flaps out, but this is not "prohibit". For reasons already well discussed, certain models of the 172 are a bit fussy in a full flaps sideslip, but if you're paying attention, and flying the plane, they are fine. Perhaps there are other types placarded to avoid sideslips, though I am not aware of them.

Bear in mind that sideslips are a certification requirement. every certified single has demonstrated sideslip stability during certification test flying. I sideslip everything I test fly, and have never had a problem (including 172's). The certification requirement is as follows:

Static directional and lateral stability.

(a)

(b)

So if you want to sideslip, go ahead. Do not stall while doing it, 'cause that is a spin entry, but other than that, you're fine. If your instructor has not shown you, ask. If they will not/cannot train you to do them well, you need to find another instructor. Sideslips are a necessary and basic flying skill.

Perhaps because I learned to fly in a J-3 I find side slips to be most natural thing in the world in light aircraft.

I'm a partner in a PA-28-181 and a Cessna C-177RG.

Slips are your only option if you are high on final with full flaps in a Cherokee. 'Just push the nose down and risk an over speed' is just crazy talk!!

Cherokees slip just fine at any flap setting and any amount of rudder deflection (not that there is much rudder on these airplanes).

Slips are not the least bit dangerous in any high wing Cessna single. If you have a 40 degree model you need to aware of the possibility of some pitch movement. On a 30 degree model like our Cardinal slips are a non-issue and there is no restriction in POH.

Even though the Cardinal is super slick compared to any PA28 it is unlikely to need much more than a few seconds of slip if you are high on final, given the power of the Cessna flaps.

The only danger in slipping either airplane would be if the pilot is afraid to let the nose stay below the horizon. But that pilot is dangerous anyway.

wow...only a few mentioned the ''s turn''. so many myths regarding slips...go out and practice them at altitude and see how they work.

BUT NO ONE has mentioned doing a 360 degree turn on final to lose altitude. While one must mention this to tower as it is an unexpected maneuver, it is perfectly fine to correct a gross altitude error.

and to those who always worry about the engine quitting...well that is fine...but if you fly IFR ever, you are simply dependent upon your engine working. I might add that Lindbergh's engine worked just fine using the best technology from 85 years ago.

you might have been high due to wind changes, and Ihope you start evaluating wind using the old standby's of wind detection...cloud movement, your movement over the ground etc. good for the guy posting from stick and rudder.

This is not rocket science. Established on final with full flap and at the proper approach speed if the touch down point is moving down in the windshield go around. Yes you can sideslip and S turn or even as seven pointed out do a 360 but I have to ask why. An early assessment that the approach is not going to work should result in an overshoot and a circuit which will add only a few minutes to a flight and allow you to regain a normal and familiar flight path to a proper final approach.

The accident record is sadly full of landing accidents where too high and too fast approaches were pushed to their inevitable conclusion.......don't be "that guy"

Of course not, but mine did

Wow, thanks for all the replies!

We were in a PA28, so side-slipping would be an option (our C172 are placarded as well, but side-slipping seems to work like everywhere else). When I learned, I learned first in a PA 22 Colt, no flaps, so side-slips were/are taught off course.

I was in the plane with an instructor for my revalidation (every two years check), and he said the only way to do it would be to push the nose down. I remeber clearly another instructor telling me years ago that the most effective way would be to lower the speed below approach-speed. So, two different opinions from two different instructors.

That is why I asked here for opinions from more people and as I suspected, there is no single truth about this (apart form going around off course).

We don't use S-turns, mainly because our airfield is smack in the middle of the town and some people living there seem to be allergic to even seeing planes. We stick to our circuit very stricktly.

The only thing that makes me wonder is why neither I nor my instructor thought of side-slipping. A very effective way, I will ask the instructor the next time I see him if there was a reason for not using a side-slip.

Oh, btw, I am not a student anymore. But we all try to do things the best possible way and this just one thing where I always try to improve.

Thanks again for your replies! :D

I'm definitely in the side-slip camp. As SSD said, ignore the ASI and fly attitude.

I was recently doing a BFR in a Warrior in New Zealand and when downwind to land on the seal (flyinkiwi knows what this is, but for others it's the paved runway ;)), my instructor changed runways on me. Suddenly I was at 1000' on close-in right-base. However, with idle power, full flaps and full side-slip, we made it comfortably to the threshold.

I've side-slipped almost every light-aircraft (and all gliders) that I've ever flown, even 182s and Cardinals. Never had any problem, not even with the Cardinal, where you can get some buffet on the all-flying tail.

However, with the exception of gliders, I would never sideslip with non-pilots on board. I did it once and got some anxious looks from my passengers.

Purzel,

Is your 172 placarded against slipping, or is it an advisory placard?

By the way, I also learnt to fly on a Colt. A lovely little aircraft, but since the next aircraft I flew was a Chipmunk, it slipped a bit in my affections. I would love to fly one again just for old times sake.

PS I see flyinkiwi also mentioned about slips and passengers.

Hmm, now that you asked I didn't know, so I took a look at the POHs of our current C172. They don't have this entry anmore. :O
Flaps only up to 30°. So I probably only remeber it from a C172 we have sold already, that model had 40° flaps.
IIRC it was advisory, but I cannot check anymore.

Just come across this as I don't normally look in the Private Flying forum. My twopennyworth:

Engine idle, carb heat hot, full flap. Point at the end of the runway / landing strip or even before. As long as you can maintain below flap limiting speed you are okay. Make a double flare. The first at around 20 to 30 feet to point at your touchdown point. The second at your normal flare height. Simples.

I am not a great fan of 360 degree turns on final unless you are absolutely certain there is no other traffic in the circuit.

I recently joined a busy right hand circuit with several aircraft ahead of me, one of which was a helicopter (why?). After turning final with 2 ahead, I looked left and there was a motor glider parallel with me at the same height. I just went around, which is when I discovered that my passenger had accidentally changed the frequency on the radio but that's another story.

After landing, I spoke to the pilot of the m/glider, believing that I had just not seen him ahead of me in the circuit. I discovered that he had done a 360 to the left to give him adequate spacing with the helicopter. I had just not seen him as I had not expected anyone to be effectively rejoining a right hand circuit from the left.

In actual fact I was talking about S turns, but yeah forward slips can cause non pilot passengers to freak out too. ;)

I believe helicopters have to follow the standard circuit pattern too - unless there is a special helicopter circuit or they are cleared to do something else.

At the airport I'm at (Prestwick) they "land" at a designated point in the centre of the main runway. The Navy S&R helicopters often get cleared to take off from just outside their hanger, but all others hold at the same points that fix wing do and take off from the runway. I've been in the circuit as a solo student with navy helicopters messing up their spacing in the circuit causing the controller to have to re-arrange things (he commented to be on the ground afterwards that it was the navy's fault...), and I must admit I had a snigger when the normally Glasgow based helimed Eurocopter got told off by air traffic control for trying to hold at a non-existent hold point when hover taxiing:
xxx ready for departure
no your're not - you're not at Mike
Mind you - there was snow on the ground which probably made things more difficult.

However, back to topic, if you're a helicopter driver, being too high on finals isn't likely to really be an issue...

Thoughts:

- Sideslipping a PA28 is fine

- Sideslipping a C172 is okay, it's just that some dislike it a bit.

- Going around is usually okay, but I've had the odd day when it wasn't (failing light, weather coming in...)

- Orbiting on finals is seldom okay. Manoeuvring close to the ground is a common way of killing yourself, and that non-radio straight in join the tower didn't know about will be up your backside.

- Diving most light aeroplanes is not okay, you just end up too fast. On the other hand, most older microlights and something like a Piper Cub it's fair game as the profile drag will just get rid of the excess energy for you.

- You will not get ASI or altimeter misreading whilst sideslipping in most light aeroplanes. But, know your aircraft - if there's a static on one side of the fuselage only, then it may be prone. Earlier C150s for example.

G

Genghis and PilotDar have both written some good advice.

My thoughts are that if the approach is wrong then the landing is not going to be pretty. There are lots of methods of arriving at the right height and speed. An excellent method is side slipping, however it is a method that requires practice and good instruction. Even in a C172 with 40 degree flaps its not a big deal. Never let the nose get high and its safe. Get the nose high and your not far off a spin entry.

Set the landing up when your a few miles out if your on a long final join, alter the base leg position if base or downwind join (make it wide or short to arrive on finals with the correct speed and altitude and if its an overhead join no excuse....

Having sat in a jump plane at 10000 feet with two miles on the GPS to run to the threshold (when doing a type rating) I was surprised to hear the instructor tell me to make it a straight in approach from that position. My first introduction to the fabled Sarajevo 1 alpha type approach !!

GEP

There are techniques for knocking off a lot of altitude quickly and getting speed back to landing but it does take skill and familiarity with the aircraft.
We have sometimes been held high maybe 15K with 7 miles to touchdown and that involves everything out including speed brakes an S descent and picking a reference point ahead of touchdown.
The idea is to go below glide and quickly arrest the descent pitching for the glide and the speed will come off fast but not one with PAX on board :E

Pace

And in VMC only I presume.

Of course in vmc and I would not recommend it because you are arresting a high descent rate, going below the glide and adding drag with pitch as well as having every other bit of drag out! not a situation to make a mistake : )

I take it your company does not operate a stable approach policy?

Of course we do ! We were discussing ways of loosing speed and I chucked this in of one I would NOT recommend ; )

Worth considering a check in POH about prolonged slips when fuel tanks are less than ¼ full. This is certainly true of my low wing PA23.

Stabilised approaches tend to lead to stable landings – no issues about throwing a landing away if you are staring at 4 whites but the trick is to use one’s superior judgement to avoid using one’s superior skills etc

My colleague at work used to drive 737’s for BMI and recalls as a very green FO – he ended up with a hot and high approach at Glasgow: quite properly instigated a missed approach but had the obligatory tea and biscuits talk afterwards (see judgement/skills ratio above)

There are plenty of ways of getting down in a hurry, but you need to be proficient to do it safely due to close proximity of the granite! One other method is to get on the back of the drag curve....I.e. slow right up, so you are just above stall. This causes a lot of drag and lower forward speed so you get quite a steep angle of decent with low airspeed.

I would stress this is advanced stuff and to do it safely you need to know your aeroplane 100% and be 100% sure of your abilities, but you could always ask your FI to show you.

1 does not work, and is working of a flawed assumption..

Pushing down may seem tempting but think about it..lowering the nose == lower angle of attack == less lift == less drag and much more speed!! These are all the things you dont want when trying to land, basically be prepared for a float /balloon fest.

Coversley however pitching the nose up == higher nose = nailing approach speed == higher aoa = more drag = steeper decent.

If im not coming down quick enough, I make sure I have the nose not down, but up!

Chipmeister, have you forgotten about parasite drag? It doesn't vary with the AoA, but increases exponentially with your airspeed. And flaps are an incredible effective device to create parasite drag. That drag is what gets rid of the excess energy, not the induced drag from creating lift.

Of course your airspeed will increase so you will need to aim well short of the runway and do the two-stage flare to get rid of the excess airspeed. But this method will get you down steeply without becoming another stall/spin statistic.

Feel free to think about it as much as you like.

In real life, however, in a 152 or 172 with full flap you can shove the nose down quite a long way and you get lower but you don't get much faster, in particular it's dead easy to get a lot lower with no significant risk of getting faster than the flap limiting speed.

There has been considerable discussion as to whether or not this results in a pretty approach (and I would agree that it doesn't), but nobody who has tried it in those particular aircraft is claiming that it doesn't work. Because it does.

Just a caution with regard to slipping, it stresses the vertical stabilizer and in particular the fixings that hold it in place.

In an emergency, it's a good option, but do you really want to do it regularly?

Could we please have some faith in the design of certified aircraft?

Yes, I slip regularly, and to full pedal deflection. I keep it slower than Va though...

We who certifiy aircraft designs, and write flight manuals, carefully confirm that the design requirements have been shown, and with adequate margin for careless piloting technique, and consider what needs to be written in the flight manual. If there is no warning about maneuvering, keep the plane within the stated limitations, prevent it from stalling, fly within your skill set, and slip it all you want. That's what it was designed for!

The prevailing design requirement reads: (my bold)

Sec. 23.441

Maneuvering loads.

(a) At speeds up to VA, the vertical tail surfaces must be designed to withstand-
(1) A sudden displacement of the rudder control (with the airplane in unaccelerated flight with zero yaw) to the maximum deflection allowed by the control stops or by pilot strength, whichever is critical;
(2) A yaw angle of 15 degrees with the rudder fully deflected (except as limited by pilot strength) in the direction tending to increase the slip; and
(3) A yaw angle of 15 degrees with the rudder control maintained in the neutral position (except as limited by pilot strength).
(b) The average loading of B23.11 and figure 1 of Appendix B and the distribution in figures 7, 6, and 8 of Appendix B may be used instead of the requirements of subparagraphs (a)(1), (a)(2), and (a)(3), respectively.
(c) The yaw angles specified in paragraph (a)(3) of this section may be reduced if the yaw angle chosen for a particular speed cannot be exceeded in--
(1) Steady slip conditions;
(2) Uncoordinated rolls from steep banks; or
(3) Sudden failure of the critical engine with delayed corrective action.

Are you saying it stresses them beyond the designers planned normal use stresses? Turning increases stresses on the wings. Landing and taxiing cause much greater undercarriage forces than flying. Running the engine stresses the propellor and engine mounts.
I sideslip because you can add/take off sideslip without taking a hand off the controlls - and it is used in crosswind landings.

Quite right, just as becoming airborne stresses the horizontal mainplain and tailplane, and their attachment bolts, so should also be kept to a minimum.

G

Slight side issue. The design requirement is from neutral to full deflection (and presumably back to neutral). It is NOT a requirement to be able to handle a left-right-left-right yawing input to full deflection each side. Some Airbus pilots found that out the hard way.

Maneuvering Speed and Broken Airplanes | Left Seat

Quote from the article:

Backpacker, I agree, but I would think that a sideslip entered or maintained by rudder motion from stop to stop is going really wrong already!

Though the Airbus event is a definite example of bad, it's not really relevant to GA aircraft. There are inertial forces in larger aircraft which really are not present in smaller aircraft. More simply, parts of light aircraft don't really "wag" the way they can on large ones. I am not aware of any failure of a V stab in a GA aircraft resulting from sideslipping.

If all the people who are so concerned about the security of the V stab, would assure that they do not push down on the H stab, while moving the Cessna on the apron, we'd be even better off. After all, the V stab on nearly all C 150/152's is attached to the H stab - then to the fuselage! What you do to the H stab, you do to the V stab too!

Utter class! :E

Ah, but Genghis, if the aircraft does not become airborne, then the landing gear attaching bolts are subject to stresses from bearing the weight of the aircraft....

But back to the topic... Today in the Caravan, I got a big thermal while turning final = high approach. With the engine at idle, and some slip, I had to add a smidge of power before I flared.... Slipping is extra draggy in the Caravan, 'cause you get a bit of spoiler too!