Gliding package aimed at PPLs
 

I'm trying to devise a fixed price to solo package for my gliding club which is aimed at PPL holders - the theory is that they can already fly an aircraft, and so will need less training to reach solo standard. We can work out what differences need to be mastered, but it would help to have answers to three questions:

1. Is there likely to be any demand? If PPL holders are (generally) not interested in gliding then I can stop wasting my time.

2. Are there any expectations a PPL holder would have which I'd need to take into account? Gliding clubs are, sort of, co-operatives, rather than commercial organisations, and I can envisage a certain amount of culture shock which would need to be managed to avoid driving the PPL away, unhappy.

3. If we do this, what's the best way of letting PPLs know? Do I stand outside local airfields with sandwich boards and leaflets?

All advice welcomed, particularly from those who know both worlds.

I think you might attract those who like a 'club' atmosphere and being around like minded individuals for a day, you get those at powered clubs as well, people who will pop down for most of the day.

However, for a lot of powered pilots who have been used to booking an a/c out for an hour, maybe arriving an hour before and leaving an hour afterwards, after having had lunch with wife/significant other in the club restaurant, asking them to spend 12 hours and the rest at a gliding site in the summer with chocolate bars and soft drinks in a cool box and a nice dry patch of grass for significant other to sit on with maybe a couple of ten minute circuits (or indeed no flying at all) may be as you say a bit of a shock.

I have a foot in both camps and it's a completely different culture. I may of course be totally wrong but that's how I see it. I wish you every success, personally I would like to see all powered pilots get to at least solo standard in gliders before they move to powered purely for the skills it teaches, much as I would say every car driver should ride a motorcycle first, but if you can afford to rent/share a powered a/c, go places in it with one or two other people, what's the attraction in gliding? Unless you're a flying nut (like me).

How about something similar to this:

Conversion Training Course

I've been to BGC and the atmosphere is very club like and a good atmosphere at that, a lot of ATPLs, PPLs and everything in between.

As a PPL who might be interested, why not offer a group course?

You could then advertise at a powered club for a group of say 5 or 6 pilots to attend.

It might reduce the culture shock to be in a small group of familiar faces. I can think of at least that many people who might bite at my flying club and give it a go. Being able to chat to people I already know about the experience and all being in the same situation would help I think.

At least a group 'taster' might get things going?

"... asking them to spend 12 hours and the rest at a gliding site in the summer with chocolate bars and soft drinks in a cool box and a nice dry patch of grass for significant other to sit on with maybe a couple of ten minute circuits (or indeed no flying at all)"

You missed the bit about pushing the glider 1 mile back to the launch point when the instructor practises a cable break at 200ft

(well that's how far I used to push em when launched by motor tow from Farnborough's 1.5 mile runway!)

Reading Pprune over the last few years, and from talking to PPLs who have joined the gliding club at which I fly, the selling points are:

• Feeling and experiencing pure flight without the distraction of an engine
• True power off stalls
• Something more than driving a cramped, noisy flying car to the next burger
• Exposure to aerobatics
• More sociable environment on the ground (perhaps)
• The challenge of staying airborne by skill instead of throttle setting
• Opportunities to fly in closer proximity to others

One gliding club had wool tufts taped to the top surface of the wings of its two-seater so students could actually see how the stall 'progressed'. Worth considering

Things that rile the PPLs are:

• The 'CFI is God' environment (particularly for experienced PPLs who have been making their own decisions for a while)
• The waiting around
• The 'You've had three launches, that's your lot' approach

If I was putting together a package to appeal to PPLs, I would focus less on the '£X to solo' and more on putting together an experience offering a mix of handling around the stall, spins,aerobatics and cross country soaring. The latter would benefit from having a self-launcher or 'turbo' so you can still go in marginal lift conditions.

As this sort of package does not appear to be currently offered, the price you charge is more down to you, and could be more lucrative.

All obviously plus points for gliding, and perfectly understandable from a glider pilot who crossed the murky divide (or started 'dirty' flying as my flying instructor who is also a gliding man says) between GP and PP, but it would be interesting to see what proportion of GPs go on to get a PPL compared to the number of PPLs who go on to get a silver C for instance.

Don't get me wrong, I started PP as a different flying challenge and for the obvious benefits of throwing the wife and a bag (not interchangeable before someone leaps in) in and clearing off for the weekend but GP will always be where my flying heart lies.

Two completely different disciplines.

It's the standing around for hours and the silly hats that would put me off...........

As a power pilot that has been "thinking about gliding" for a while now but has yet to have a go I'll be interested to see what you can come up with.

I've shelved the idea for the moment and started flying aerobatics on a Pitts which is using up most of my spare cash so gliding will have to wait.

I had envisaged flight without an engine as being quite cheap, but having done a little research it isn't as cheap as I had expected. I've also discovered gliding clubs without low level Class A over them are a few hours drive away from me.

I've no idea what is involved with gliding but it does sound like there is alot of standing about pulling gliders around, among other odd jobs. My impression is that gliding isn't for someone that wants to turn up and spend a few hours in the air before going home again, which means it could be a bit too much of a commitment for people on a tight schedule.

I don't agree with this in the slightest. There are plenty of powered aircraft that are fun to fly and do more than a burger run. In my opinion the unadventurous lot that only fly basic "noisy flying cars" need a kick up the back side!

Most flying clubs I've visited tend to be full of "old folk". Is this not the case in gliding?

And I'm sure there's plenty of us who have trouble finding even that much time ...
Now that's a good one. I reckon there would be somewhat fewer dead and mangled motorcyclists if that were enforced. (I gave up driving a bike and got rid of it many years ago now, there were just too many car drivers out to kill me.)

As a PPL holder who's had a couple of sorties in gliders, I'd say both camps have much to learn from each other.

Not sure about the 'fixed price to solo' concept, though. PPL's have vastly different experience and flying capabilities & I don't see how you could possibly make an informed judgement about how much additional training would be required for the conversion. It's hard enough to do this with ab initio students when you are at least starting from a common baseline. Also, PPL holders are familiar with the pricing structure of flying training & the problems inherent in fixed price packages & I don't think they'd see much merit in that sort of arrangement.

I have in the past organised events where a group of 5-10 PPLs would fly over to a gliding site for a few hours for an introductory session, and those events were always great fun for both glider & power pilots alike. Personally, I think that'd be a better way forward for your club if you want to attract power pilots into the fold.

I've done a bit of gliding at Booker a long time ago. I got hacked off with the uncertainty and all of the waiting around. For me to get back into gliding i think that you would need to move towards the "powered flying" model, where we'd have a slot (one hour, for example) dedicated time with an instructor - to cover how ever many launches that could.

I never really understood why that couldn't be put in place. Might increase the costs a bit with needing dedicated "glider fetcher/pushers" but these could be doing it in exchange for flying anyway.

Just my two centimes!

You're not far off the mark, There is some what a "waiting around feel" sometimes, especially when busy. The main problem is a Gliding Club is a Club.

I think for most PPLs joining a gliding club this will be very strange, unlike a flying school club where you turn up at your allocated time and fly as a customer. At a gliding club there are paid individuals, but the majority of the work is done by members.

For most Gliding clubs/societies/centres', they operate as a club from a day to day basis, but they also act as a business (courses/trial flights) that have to be dealt with professionally.

I've been to Booker a few times and during the summer season it seemed they have employed seasonal instructors that specifically deal with trial flights etc, and also around 15+ instructors that are just club members. On top of the year round CFI.

In regards to the waiting around aspect, I recall that there is a daily schedule for each instructor on duty, with allocated times for flights (trials, courses) and they have priority. If you just turn up on the day and they can fly you, they will, but you'll be bottom of the list. Sounds Fair.

Please advise what relevance this has.

The bigger clubs offer 1-to-1 training. A one hour slot is useless, though, you will never make any progress. Half day minimum.

Because its a real hinderance in some clubs.

you get a bunch of auld farts (or middle aged in years but still a grumpy auld fart) sitting around moaning about anything,any questions the students have are treated with disdain. They just generally make everyone else want to get out the place as quickly as possible.

Its a nightmare as an instructor when the auld bastards set up shop, you have to try and steer potential students away from them. We had one up north who could clear the school in 5 mins flat. Lovely fun atmosphere to empty building and trial flight familys sitting in a corner not even talking to each other.

That said some of them are the light and soul of the place interact with the young pilots and are just are generally good eggs. I might add that type of pilot usually doesn't get on with the auld farts.

People want to enjoy every part of the experence on the ground as well as in the air.

I realise that! ;) What I was trying to say (very poorly) is that having a fixed price course within the existing "club" structure wouldn't tempt me. Having a more "power flying" type arrangement (even if an hour slot is too short, although I think that half a day could be too much commitment!) would be interesting, even if it were to cost more.

Perhaps it does already exist in some clubs but it doesn't seem to be widely advertised.

Not much prospect I fear.
 

Hi ProfChrisReed,

I started my flying career with a BGA 'B' Certificate, but then moved on to power flying very many years ago.

Personally, I feel that trying to estimate a price to solo is financially hazardous. You could lose a good deal of money that way, especially if it is based on weekend flying. Selling summer gliding taster courses specifically for PPLs and NPPLs might just work.

However, you haven't made clear what your end objective is.

Are you perhaps seeking a new revenue stream for the gliding club by getting PPLs to do gliding as well as power flying? In that case I think you may be disappointed. Most PPLs and NPPLs do about 10 or 15 hrs a year, because that's all they can afford. I can't see them forking out extra for gliding.

Are you hoping to obtain an influx of experienced pilots into gliding that will quickly train up to become potential competition competitors for your club? Personally, I can't see this working either. Most PPLs and NPPLs are used to doing a flight plan and getting going. They might find a taster couse interesting, but I can't see many of them actually taking to gliding on a regular basis.

One thing you may expect is that of those who come to try gliding, there will be at least a few who will not really be interested in gliding at all and will really have their eyes on flying the tug aircraft to build hours for their CPLs. In my experience most gliding clubs already have a surfeit of budding tug pilots and don't want any more.

I would suggest that you run one or two taster courses for PPLs and NPPLs and use this as an opportunity to speak to course participants and see what motivates them.

Regards,

BP.

Its somewhat cunningly hidden on their website, but Lasham seem to offer this:

Information for visiting pilots to Lasham Gliding Society

So do Booker:
Conversion Training Course

Of course getting solo isn't the same as getting Bronze/XC but it's a step on the way.

Mad Jock
OK point tooken. Being an old fart myself, but quite able to mix with most I get a bit uppity at generalisations. I have on the other hand met quite a few "young farts" that stuff their opinions up yr nose & think the world was born yesterday just for their convenience.

Many thanks for all the replies - all interesting, and all helpful (even those who think it wouldn't work for them, or at all, because of the reasons they give). I'm most grateful.

Someone asked where I'm coming from - we're a fairly small club with the benefits that we're a friendly bunch and, more important, there's never a queue to get a launch (though you might be queueing for a particular club aircraft if you're not prepared to fly whatever is available right now). I reckon we could accommodate 10-15 new members without ruining this. And of course, more members = either lower costs all round or money to spend on new toys.

I've noticed that there have been a number of recent threads on gliding here, so I reckoned there might be enough interest to make it worth putting a package together. And I know that PPLs like flying!

The fixed price to solo model is because I know that PPLs are used to thinking about cost in terms of £X per hour. Because of the uncertainties about soaring conditions I can't do an hourly pricing model - pricing is launch cost + £Y per minute in club aircraft. Thus some aspects of training can seem ludicrously expensive in hourly terms - for example a 1 minute flight learning how to cope with cable breaks. So the theory is, offer a fixed package which at least enables the PPL to get some idea about whether it's decent value overall. We have PPL and ATPL members and thus some idea about how long, on average, it takes to reach solo - and, as you'd expect, the quick learners balance out the slow ones. Plus we're looking long term - even if you take a long time to solo, if you stay a member and carry on gliding that fits in with our long-term aims.

Once you're solo, the cost of gliding becomes fairly predictable ifyou learn to soar. I fly about 50 hours a year for between £2k and £2.5k all in, which includes all the running costs of owning my own aircraft. If I shared it with one other pilot I could cut that to between £1.5k and £2k, but I'd probably do only 40hrs because I wouldn't be guaranteed unrestricted use of an aircraft every day I was able to fly and conditions were good. In our club aircraft you can fly 20-30 hrs a year for around £1.5k - hard to do more because you have to share the aircraft on the good days and small clubs like mine only operate 3 days per week.

I'd be particularly interested in further comments from those who might be tempted, if their local club offered a package, to know what they'd want to be told, what would help attract them and what things would put them off.

Some things I can't change, like the amount of time involved. Training has to be half-days minimum, because of all the uncertainties involved, and anyone who takes up gliding seriously will find it's done in full days. A typical gliding day for me might be 40 mins assembling my aircraft, the same helping others to rig, an hour or two doing club stuff while I wait for the weather to come right, 2-6 hrs airborne, an hour derigging and helping others, plus of course all the time spent chatting with friends about our flights. Now I've written it out I'm slightly surprised that it only takes one day!

I think it's a very interesting idea, and will float it at my club. We are not in the south of England so the potential is less, but OTOH there are fewer clubs to compete for it!

A couple of years ago I persuaded Mrs Driver that we should take our week's hol as a gliding course. A stunning and very memorable week.
Good bits - Dedicated instructor per student; a small, fixed class of fun people; good weather (with pre-planned alternatives); fantastically good exercise; parachutes; teamwork; aerotows; you KNOW you're going to get a good amount of concentrated flying
Difficult bits - co-ordinated turns, judging heights, judging distances
Easy bits - winch launches, spin recovery late downwind :eek:
Surprising bits - Depth of GPs' met knowledge; GPs' attitude to cloud/IMC; GPs' approach to nav; traffic density

Although I was offered solo at the end, it took more than I expected and I turned it down, choosing first to do another couple more days later in the summer.

All PPLs should do gliding, just for the fun of it (and maybe to raise awareness of gliding sites.)

SD


Background
I glid a bit, in my teens (BGA A&B); PP'd a bit in my 20s (not quite solo); PPL'd in my 40s - also IMC.
I checked out my local (very small) gliding club a while ago, but I really couldn't countenance the '3 flights a day' regime.


Also a tremendous 'social' end-of-day bar session

It's good to hear you had such a positive experience. Are you willing to reveal which club this was at? Also, what was surprising about the GP's approach to nav?

I took up gliding as a way to keep flying at a reasonable cost as I felt I was not getting enough time in the air to maintain, never mind develop skills.

With 3 months, or so, experience I am of the opinion that most people have a msiconception about gliding. Yes there are days that the weather does not play fair, there is a lot of hanging around and you are expected to help out. However, in general the more experienced glider pilots fly higher, longer and very often further and for much less cost than a 'typical' PPL on an hour or so sortie around the local field.

Ultimately though I don't believe it is fair to compare them, they are significanlty different with each having its own merits.

I think if more PPLs were aware what gliding has to offer they would get great satisfaction from it and still enjoy their power flying, there is no need to be in one camp or the other.

The biggest disadvantage of gliding as a sport is the time invovled, for me the rewards have been worth it.

BB

Oh Sh1t ! You mean it wasn't ? :oh::}

I started off in Gliding and moved to powered flying. I agree that most PPL's really want to turn up , fly and leg it . I think the hard bit for me would be turning up at the crack of sparrow fart and staying till I hear the snoring.

CT

ProfChrisReed

Where is your club? I could be your guinea pig if you like? Special price, obviously.......:)

As a powered pilot PPL I have had one gliding lesson (in Suffolk) and have since decided that I do want to at least achieve solo gliding. I am almost at the point of booking the Lasham course, so am definitely interested.

As has been suggested here, it's not so much the fixed price I'm bothered about, more the thought that I would want to focus on the flying training. Whilst I am sure you are all lovely people, I don't really want to spend a day chatting about gliding when I could be doing it for real. I accept that gliding entails mucking in and getting others launched, but at the risk of sounding very selfish, I am really looking for a focused training course, where I am the centre of attention ;). (Or as part of a small group maybe). Half-days are not a problem, even whole days as long as there weren't too many of them!

Part of the appeal of the Lasham course is the thought that it can be done within two days (apparently). That timescale in itself is not the bit that is so important - I wouldn't want to cut corners - but rather the concentration of training, if that makes sense.

Once a trained solo glider pilot, that's when the real learning would start. I would hope and expect to go on to become a 'normal' club member, helping out and becoming involved, even enjoying a long chat or two without getting in the air! :)

Gliding package aimed a PPLs
 

I thought I’d add something of my experiences to this discussion, having moved into gliding from the powered world twice.
The first time (30 years ago) was after a couple of hundred hours power. It was fairly straightforward to fly the glider (went solo in fewer than 20 launches) but I didn’t do much more than some basic soaring and one 50km cross country.
I came back just over two years ago, wanting to do get into cross country, and having given up power a few years ago after the need to do it on business dried up. I’d stopped being excited about just going flying. Learning to fly cross country in a glider has been a blast. It is a real challenge, can be very frustrating, but can also be extremely rewarding. So far this season (third year in), I’ve done nine cross country flights covering about 1,700km (plus lots of miscellaneous other flying), and I’m still learning huge amounts.
My sense is each gliding club operates somewhat differently. I fly at Cambridge Gliding Centre, which is one of the larger clubs, and which operates seven days a week in the summer (five in the winter).

Some observations about the transition from power to gliding, based on what I’ve seen at Cambridge:
Gliding is more time consuming. Cambridge has bookable training slots which are a big improvement on the list system I saw first time around. That means you can book an aircraft and instructor (2:1 pupil/student ratio) giving a good chance of doing a decent amount of flying in the half or full day slot. But it’s not turn up for a couple of hours and fly. Once solo, Cambridge also has a bookable single seater scheme (by the day), so again you can guarantee aircraft availability (and as Chris said, serious cross country pilots tend to take most or all of the day). Additionally, there are a lot more tasks to do, and there are rotas to be on to take your share. I’m a tug pilot and Basic Instructor too – so I get to fly on both mine – but it might be driving the winch, or running the launch point.
Gliding is more weather dependent. Learning isn’t too bad – you can do that pretty much any time of year. But good soaring days are not as frequent as they might be – so the serious arrange their diaries around the flying, not the other way around.
It’s also more uncertain. It’s entirely possible to end up in a field somewhere around the task, and get back somewhat later than you expected by road. (Clearly you understand this before you set off – if it’s a problem, you can always soar locally).
I think Gliding is more sociable – that’s pretty much forced by the need to have lots of people working together to operate at all. Which is not to say that power clubs can’t be sociable – just that there’s less of a driver to do so. Against that, I have heard of gliding clubs that come across as cliquey.
The basics of the flying are pretty much the same. If you can fly power you can fly a glider. But there are some big differences after that.

• There’s much less procedure. Very few checks involved, circuits by visual judgement rather than the numbers, fly speed but not heading or height. No local ATC. You can end up landing at the same time as several other aircraft, and have to sort it out between you.
• There’s much more emphasis on handling. Flying cross country you’ll be switching from thermalling at up to 45 degrees of bank, a few knots above the stall, to flying between thermals at twice that speed. If the thermal is rough you might regularly be dealing with insipient spins.
• Flights are often much shorter than power, often much longer. A flight from a winch launch can be five minutes. On a good day, cross country flights can easily be four to six hours.
• Glider pilots are good at lookout. Two reasons for this – first there's that big canopy. Secondly, whilst power pilots tend to try and stay away from each other, glider pilots do the opposite. If you’re in a thermal with six other gliders all going around the same circle within a few hundred feet vertically, you don’t look in much! And between thermals we’re probably trying to use the same (small) piece of sky as everyone else – maybe going in all directions (quadrantal rules don’t work for gliders).
• Understanding what the air is doing becomes your way of staying airborne, rather than a slight bump that you can avoid by flying a bit higher. I don’t think you really stop learning about this – it’s really interesting to see how good the good guys are, and how much better than the rest of us. Learning a lot about met pays off.
• Gliding can be (for those who want it) more competitive than power. Clubs run competitions (essentially handicapped racing), and many people put their everyday flights up on the BGA Ladder (worth a look at Daily Scores) which is a sort of informal competition. That gives a really good feel of how other people got on compared with you on any given day. [Flying tasks usually involves deciding where you’re going to go before you get airborne, then doing it. The aim is to get the best from the day]. Cambridge is a very cross country orientated club, and a lot of the discussion is about where you’re planning to go, and later, where you got to.

All in all, it's a very different experience from pure powered flying - and one well worth doing.
I think Chris has the costs about right. A budget of a couple of £K gets you a serious amount of flying - whether owning your own or using club aircraft.


Paul

Since I'm not a member there I can't comment on how the Lasham course is run.

We have booked flying at my club and most of the year it's three students max to one instructor and that actually is enough. Firstly three are the minimum to launch the glider - one on the glider, one to hold the wing, one to do the lights - but it can be an intense day and that ratios seems to give about as much flying as most of us can cope with. Flying with an instructor always seems high-pressure compare to a mutual or a solo.

We also do 5-day courses in the summer and AFAIK that's for three students as well - it was when I did one to finish my Bronze.

Mods, can I post my club's identity here? Don't want to fall foul of any advertising rules.

But in any event, if you go gliding you want a fairly local club - I'm looking for a handful of new members, not touting for a load of trial lessons!

Chris,

Promoting grass-roots aviation, powered or otherwise, is part of the remit of this forum, so mentioning the name of your gliding club is fine.

SD

Thanks SD.

I'm from Essex GC, flying out of Ridgewell near Clare (NW of Colchester, NE of Braintree, SE of Haverhill). About 50 members, winch and aerotow launching, 3,000 ft of grass to fly from (Sat, Sun & Wed).

I'm working out the package at the moment, and hope to get it agreed in the next 2-3weeks - will post details here then.

It also seems that there might be some interest in a "taster" day or half day - I'll put together something on this as well.

Our problem is in finding the extra instructors to cover intensive training for PPLs - on the other hand, we have the advantage of not having huge queues for instructional flying during normal operations.

Would the best thing be some kind of "taster" package, with the cost knocked off the fixed price to solo package if you decided to take it further? This could perhaps be organised on an individual basis, or with maybe two takers at a time. Half a day, I guess, rather than a full day?

I quite enjoyed gliding, but I hated the club mentality of the "big i am" and I have been here since the age of god.

I also would prefer a structured training program instead of one flight and thats your lot. It annoyed me considering I have beenat the school all dayand they could only offer me one aero tow per day. Quite often I would turn up and there would be no instructors.

Got completely fed up and give it up.


Structure is the way to go, instead of one flight or we dont have any instructors excuse.

Unlike GA, most gliding isntructors are unpaid which means we can ask them to turn up, but not tell them. Hence, sometimes, no instructors or not enough instructors.

One aerotow? Well if there are 10 other people wanting flying and one training glider, that realistically is your lot.

Gliding package aimed at PPLs
 

The answer to this problem is fairly straightforward - go to a club which has bookable training (then you're only sharing your glider with one other person), and which is big enough to have enough instructors to turn up.

It doesn't guarantee that you get lots of flying, weather has an effect - but that's true of pretty much all forms of flying one way or another.

Paul

I understand that about instructors not being paid, but if I turn up (taking time out of my day, and paying for the priviledge) then I would of expected some progress. I didnt want it to take the best part of a year to get to bronze standard.

Maybe gliding schools should provide a new appointments system or intensive course with some form of structure. Training at gliding schools (in my experience) have been very adhoc in their approach to training new people.

In terms of the aerotow....there was 5 people gliding but only 2 of them were in training. The school was packing up by 3pm on aerotows.

Firstly, they are gliding CLUBS not gliding SCHOOLS. A very different beast.

Secondly most of them offer some form of bookable flying, many offer courses. At my club there is a 5-day per week instructor we can book with, plus through the summer a second instructor runs course Mon-Fri. That's not untypical by any means.

Lastly, maybe they are short of tug pilots? Except at one or two clubs in the UK they are again unpaid.

I do know a lot of "clubs" struggle financially!

Forward thinking schools/clubs or what ever you want to call them all provide the same thing at the end of the day.....gliding!

The school which will and have survived are clubs or schools who are forward thinking in the terms which has been mentioned.

If you think it's a school and expect exactly the same as from a flying school then no wonder you are disappointed. They are clubs- the intention is not only gliding but social, unlike (AFAIK) flying schools.

There should be no problem over structure as the BGA syllabus is clear and all the clubs I've visited all have some sort of progress card which shows how you are doing, though succeeding in something one week doesn't guarantee succeeding the next. However getting to Bronze in a year can be a challenge because of the weather and limited flying in the winter plus the need to develop enough skill at soaring to be able to stay up for a couple of hours for the XC endorsement.

I say again, most of the instruction at all clubs is unpaid. You are choosing to take time out of your day to be there, they are choosing to take time - unpaid time - for Bloggs to try to kill them.

If you want an intensive course get on the Internet, use the BGA website and book one. There are plenty of clubs offering 5-day courses.

I can see your a great advocate of gliding "clubs".
We obviously have differing points of view on the matter. Therefore to save us going round in circles it is probably best for us to agree to disagree!