A fraternity...
 

I was reminded recently that we are a fraternity - those of us in aviation as a whole, and those of us in the subset of general aviation.

In our fraternity, we should take care of each other, we should go the extra mile for the other person. I was the recipient of such kind treatment from another PPRuNe member, whom I have "known" for a long time, but had never before met. This PPRuNer went the extra mile in several ways, getting me out of a sticky [travel] wicket, in addition to simply being a remarkable host for my visit.

This served as a very important reminder that we have all chosen to come together with a common interest, and as long as we choose to participate, should pull together. That doesn't mean we can't disagree appropriately, but we owe it to each other to pull together for the common good in the big picture. We are people of an industry, we need to encourage each other, and the industry, when ever we can.

This PPRuNer has certainly been very prolific over the years, providing a vast wisdom for all who would read here. My most heart felt thanks to my host. I have waited years to meet him, and it was well worth the stop in the UK this time around. He has reaffirmed the importance of taking care of one and other, which I will surely follow. I challenge the rest of you to rise to this fine standard for fraterinty in your own way too....

Hmmm....wonder who that was then...?

Pilot DAR

What a super post.

I was very sorry not to have been able to meet you but I am so pleased you clearly had a wonderful stay.

Perhaps when you next see these shores again.

All the best

That was a great post Pilot DAR :D

I must say that as a pretty new pilot, I continue to find my fellow aviators generally helpful and supportive. Not all hobbies are like this sadly.

Great post DAR, we are indeed a band of brothers.

Thanks to the various internet forums I have met some wonderful people in the UK, Denmark and South Africa. I have been offered transport, meals, night stays and have shared some memorable flights.

In other countries pilots have gone gone out of their way to help me and make me feel welcome.

I try to exchange when somebody arrives in my area, last Sunday a nice day (I hope for my friend) spent flying together with an American Ppruner.

I found PPRuNe when I was pre-PPL and desperate to get the coveted licence to commit aviation. My friends here have supported and encouraged me every inch of the way - much as fellow students and pilots whom I meet face-to-face have done.

Well said, Pilot DAR; it needed saying, and I'm sure most PPRuNers would have absolutely no difficulty in meeting your challenge. :)

Fine words Pilot DAR :D:D

"Fraternity"?

"we are indeed a band of brothers"

And the female pilots? What of them? Invisible? Chopped liver? Nonentities? :ugh: :=

Pardon me, I was not aware that "fraternity" is gender limited, as I have only ever been a member of the aviation fraterinty. which is certainly not gender limited. As there are many PPRuNe members whose gender is unknown to me, I have no intention to allow them to feel excluded. Hmmm, maybe I should sign up for the 99's so I can promote a feeling of comradery.... (Ooo, I hope that term does not have any hidden implications!)

Sorry to have missed you Fuji, I'll be back, Icelandic ash permitting. In the mean time, I wish both of you a pleasant evening at the pub some time, and I'll catch up later...

DAR,

As someone who has helped me in the past, if I had known you were in the UK I would have taken the opportunity to meet up if possible and buy you a drink!

(Your advise about Lake Country Airways last year was excellent and I look forward to the opportunity to return :))

Alan.

Fraternity ... from the latin for brother, frater.

Fernytickles has a point. It may not be directed at you as an individual PilotDAR but to that not insigificant group of middle-aged, fixed-wing male pilots who treat aviatrices in a patronising and condescending manner. Until some attitudes change, you will remain indeed a band of brothers.

Cheers

Whirls

I've never seen that anywhere.

Women have always been most welcome in GA - not least because there are so few of them.

I used the term "band of brothers".

It is the title of a book written by Ernest Gann, the story of how pilots from around the world teamed up to help a fellow pilot in need of help. I love that book.

I used the words in that sense, that pilots around the world will help pilots, no reference intended to being male or female.

I suppose I have errantly demonstrated how little I know about latin, or male dominated institutions. While attemping to cast a warm senitment of inclusion, I accidently was exclusive.

My original senitment should be received with no gender bias whatever intended. I will give a second thought the next time I hear one in a group of women ask the others in the group: "What do you guys want to do?"

The band of brothers/sisters only works in some parts of the world and certain individuals take the piss out of it unfortunately.

Fernytickles

Quite pathetic that you twist a warm and genuine comment from PilotDAR to give you the opportunity to slip the PC knife in.

If you want to be taken seriously, act your age not your shoe size.

It's okay, I do know that there was a side of humour in Fenytickles post, and it's not fair to take her on too hard while she's still sleeping!

I have in the past felt honestly badly when I have accidentally offended a female with an unintended gender biased remark. I think it an unfortunate historic (well, historic in much of the world anyway) legacy of male self importance, which has left us with a lanuage which still holds these pitfalls.

Perhaps those of us who would like to admit to being male here, would like to offer that any gender bias which appears in a post is accidental, and not intended to offend - I hereby so offer...

I have every belief that the pilots of the world should and do pull together as much as possible, and certainly gender need not be divisive!

For goodness sake, let's not PC become between us. The term pilot is genderless, but fraternity as applied to a genderless group is perfectly appropriate as there is no genderless equivalent. We are truly brothers and sisters in our love of flying and long may it stay that way. PC has no place in our mutual love of flying and to even suggest that gender is important is divisive and beneath contempt.

my 2c ... with both barrels.

Flaps

Please confirm my guess that "PC" refers to political correctness? I just want to make sure I don't perpetuate more insult, resulting from unfamiliarity with my first and only language!

Based on Pilot DAR's posts, it is hard to imagine a less bigoted person.

Words change their meaning over time, at different rates in different places.

One of my favourites is "The Oxford History Of England", written between 1936 and 1965.
Towards the end of that period, people started to wonder why a history of Britain should be called that.

Fernytickles: get a life

What a nice post Pilot DAR.

If the pprune member who was so kind to you is a Private Flying poster, then please name them (and embarrass them in a nice way) so that they can get the little bit of the credit that they deserve :)

So many of the conversations here are argumentive in nature, that it's good to be reminded that most people are pretty desent when you meet them in person ;)

Of course you haven't - yer a bloke!! :}

Cheers

Whirls

Girls, come on, you may well have a point, BUT the OP has made it absolutely clear that his intentions were NOT as you suggest. By all means start a thread on sex discrimination in private flying (the banter could well be entertaining) but it seems a shame to detract from the OP.

Cheers.

Wonderful post Pilot DAR :D
Thanks for sharing your thoughts... :ok:

I considered this, my intent was to cast a positive sentiment over the group as a whole, rather than to focus on an identifed individual. He knows who he is, and this group has expressed kind thoughts toward him before. I'll let you continue to speculate as to who it might be, so that you will extend that little bit of extra courtesy more broadly.

Similarly, I feel no unkindness from the remarks made by the women. It is a leftover from our society's past that these literary pitfalls exist. I would hardly be living the way I propose we all do, if I took offense, or promoted it. I expect that if some men wish to be seen as gender biased, they can easily do that. Otherwise I hope the women will assume that no bias was intended.

And to put my money where my mouth is, It was an extremely compotent female flying instructor who did my commercial pilot training, and another very experienced female fire patrol pilot who did type training for me, and flew as safety pilot for my Caravan flight testing last year. I remain to this day, very inspired by the female pilots who ferried all types of aircraft during WW2. I came to know one, and I am the wiser for it.

I appreciate Fuji's comment. If there is to be a thread of gender descrimination, I will surely participate....

Well said, Fuji, Nail, head, hit.

Pilot DAR & I have communicated privately in the past, and he has been very helpful to me too. As he recognised, this wasn't a dig at him directly. It was unforunate that such as nice post as he made originally used the term "fraternity", and someone else used "band of brothers" so adding to the point I brought up.

I do not believe in political correctness just for the sake of it. Having said that, I am noticing more & more that aviation groups, forums and organisations talk the talk about bringing in more girls & women, but don't walk the walk when it comes to small details. Just reading AOPA's recent magazine where they have an article discussing why so few of the world's pilots are women, and what can be done to change that. In the next article there's references to a fraternity (brotherhood), pilots being referred to as "he", rather than "they" etc, etc. At a recent EAA event, the CEO referred to the aviation "fraternity" (I guess he doesn't understand his Latin either ;) ). Yet EAA runs the "Women Soar" program to try and encourage more women into aviation.

These are only tiny aspects to the big picture of encouraging more girls to become involved in aviation, but I believe they have the potential to make a difference. If a young girl is reading about aviation that always has a male context, will their instant mental image of the situation referenced be of a mixed gender group, or of a group of men? Is that more likely to make them feel it is a community where they could join in? Or does it come across that aviation is just populated by men?

I don't believe in only encouraging girls to get involved in aviation, I believe everyone should be encouraged, regardless of gender, race, colour or creed. The more people who become interested, and stay interested in aviation, the better it is for the aviation community (not sorority, not fraternity :8 - I guess something from the one year of Latin I did at school must have stuck) as a whole. So the more women and girls who feel aviation is a place they would be included, so much the better.

No more soapbox for today. Sorry PD, I didn't mean to mess up your thread :(

No Problem Fenytickles, I understand. I'm sure I've blundered into a few myself!

So what could the "brothers" in this "fraterinty" do to be more obviously gender sensative or neutral? Beyond avoiding sexist remarks, and taking care with He/She-His/Hers etc. and avoiding gender biased terms (once we realize they are!) what else is to be done?

The spirit of gender equality seems to be apparent in the group, what's a "guy" to do? (not trying to put you on the spot, just wondering where to go from here, so please step within range of your soapbox!).

While I can understand the "harshness" of language terms for some members of the flying community, when I write on a flying forum, no matter the gender term used, I intend "pilot" and a pilot for me is a pilot, full stop.

Gender, race, and other differences have no value in the cockpit.

Actually, just that would do :}

Seriously, the problem lies in assumptions; makes an ASS of U and ME.

Took a non-aviating male friend flying and landed at a small airfield somewhere in the East of England for the £10 bacon sarnie. My friend was greated by fellow aviators wanting to know about learning to fly helicopters. He replied by suggesting that the pilot would be the best person to ask. If this was a one-off, I wouldn't mind but it happens frequently along with questions like, "what does my husband think of me flying?".

Unfortunately gentlemen, what some of you see as harmless banter is actually old, tired, outdated "humour" that went out of fashion at the same time as "Love They Neighbour" and Bernard Manning. You know, the jokes about map-reading and reverse parking?

I would dearly love to think we are all one in this coterie (like it?? - good word) but until some of this nonsense stops, a small faction of the GA community will feel alienated. Intelligent and witty banter is great and I'll give as good as I get, but hackneyed cliches with an underlying sense of belief in them have no place in a truly a-sexual environment.

Cheers

Whirls

The odd thing is i often wish i was a girl if that is the way it works.

I would be very happy to not answer the questions and smile sweetly.

Oh well i guess the grass is always greener. :)

(only adding to the debate as the op doesnt mind the thread drift).

I cannot believe that Pilot-DARs most admirable thread has been hijacked in this way, after so many other examples of somebody here and elsewhere using "he" (or similar) in a posting.

Why don't these two women lobby Pprune management to start a new women-only forum if they feel so strongly about trivia like grammar. In the English language, the masculine includes the feminine and it has done so for centuries.
Only those with well balanced personalities: a chip on each shoulder.

Really. :hmm:

It's not a question of the grass being greener as, oddly, I have no desire to be male; it's a question of being taking seriously. A message which still isn't getting through.

Personally, I don't have any problem with apparent "masculine" terms encompassing both sexes and bizarrely, I don't think there should be any place for a "Women's Forum" anymore than I think there should be a need for the BWPA.

Cheers

Whirls

Whirls, your points are well made. I have witnessed such poor behaviour myself, and intervened a few times. So what would you see done if you could infulence the sexists? What would you want to think your male PPRuNe colleages would do to quell sexism in aviation, if they felt they had an opportunity?

All the good will misses the mark, if the intended recipients think it is mis directed.

As a person who has flown since I was 15 years old, I can appreciate what you're saying just a little, as I was the victim of the "little kid" sydrome for a while. It took a long time to be taken seriously.

Pilot DAR, you ask some good, but not-easy-to-answer questions. I don't know. It'll be a slow process for any minority to gain true acceptance into any coterie (I SO like that word :)).

Maybe chaps, if you see a chap and a chapess disembark from an aircraft and you want to talk to the pilot about said aircraft, why not use the opening gambit of, "Hi, which one of you is the expert on this xxxx aircraft"? If it's both of them, then both he and she will say, "Me"; otherwise, you'll get your answer. ;)

Cheers

Whirls

And how is this "coterie" to be understood?

Annoyance could have been simply avoided by mentioning a "family" rather than a "brotherhood". "Guild" could have done too, but has some implication of professionalism.

Back to the original topic: yes, the bond is there. Has been equal to me with (the few) women in the club. And I do take it for no more than an unhappy coincidence that the one student pilot in the club who is never going to make it is female. Actually I only made it very marginally myself, and only after exhaustive application of patience and budget.

The bond is there. The very few that I found standing out from it were either medium-hours pilots wanting to show off, or a very few that were "incontournable" and wanted me to feel it. Seems to occur in some newly created instructors, and generally passes naturally, without doing great harm except to their own pride.

Of course it must be entirely by coincidence that I never observed either kind of behaviour in any female.

PS "gambit" is an unusual word too, but you might know it from studying/playing chess - another world where woman are rare, and for no apparent reason either.

post-edited PPSS : Coterie - Wikipédia has some enlightenment, but not very recommendable, it seems to encompass both vices I mentioned.

I think a woman's place is in the home, cooking my tea and cleaning up after me. They shouldn't bother their pretty little heads about aeroplanes and things they can't possibly be expected to understand.

which says it all about your ability to expect.












But I do seem to detect some kind of double edge. Will work it out when the next Sun rises.

Shall we say non-sexist instead? 'Asexual' means something else. :ok:

P.S. Mods, this discussion really belongs to a separate thread: why not spin it off from say post #30?