Too late, it already exists.................;);)

British Medical Pilots Association

Cusco.

Regarding the post from Three Greens, don't you just love that use of the word (respectfully? ) in parentheses? Like saying "with respect", actually meaning quite the opposite!!!!! Ah, the innuendos! the double entendres, the references to boobs and willywaving, where would we be without them?

( I actually do like being around men, I am used to them. Grew some of my own.)

That's the sort of man talk I like to hear...

Whether you take any notice is up to you.

Splitting hairs is a way of describing the application of some precision, in that sense you are correct, there is a whole heap of flaky stereotyping from some posters on this thread, which I am challenging.

You interpret motive from a word that I added with genuine intent, to try to avoid the question sounding aggressive.

My experience as an OD/HRD professional in various sectors is that gender is much less a factor than IQ, EQ, education, culture, personality and motivation.

Careful mary, in a thread full of people moaning about stereotyping of females, this stereotyping of males might shoot their efforts in the foot! :ok:

Haven't we established by now that gender is pretty irrelevant to piloting, and we should all get a life and stop quibbling about it...

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Well if nothing else the OP has achieved his objective.

He has reminded us that we are really all friends in this community of ours, and in so doing, some of our "old" friends on this forum have re-appeared especially some of our old girl friends. (old in the sense they have long been contibutors to PPRuNe and girl friends, well, in the sense they are girls and part of our community of friends).

It is good to read their thoughts again.

Indeed... I'm glad I kindled the fire (however unitentionally/misguidedly).

I will take this opportunity to add an element to the original theme of my very first post here... Gosh I wish I had followed my host's advice, and not flown RyanAir! Never again!

I made it back to London, and will shorty go and read all of the foregoing posts I missed in this thread, during my travel from Germany. I want to be sure to be right up to date!

On about the thread drift again now, sorry for the interruption.....

Why is it that women can say what they like about sexism & being treated as second class etc, yet men have to watch what they say for fear of being considered non PC?
Women are different to men, they always have been & no amount of "equality" is going to change that. They should be treated with the same respect as men, but no more.
If you hold a door open for a woman nowadays you get a look that says, "I can manage thank you!" If you don't, you get a look that says "Ignorant bastard!"
So, Women, get a grip, get a life, & give us a break! We are all in this together. Fraternity/community what the hell is the difference?:yuk:

Surely you mean "fraternity/sorority/community what the hell is the difference"?

You can open a door for me or not, as you like; it doesn't bother me. However, I do get ever so mildly upset if I spend two hours talking about my last flight, and then you look at me in amazement and say, "Oh, do you fly then?" It's happened, I kid you not (And by the way, Whirls, it was a helicopter pilot!). And after the 10th, 20th, maybe 30th time of such a thing, is it really surprising if I get ever so slightly pissed off about it? Sorry, but I'm human and imperfect. I apologise for that, and now thanks for the welcome, but maybe I'll go back into my hole and sleep like Rip van Winkle for another few years of so.

Did you ever think that you might just be talking to idiots, rather than jumping straight to the sexism conclusion?

Or "Oh, do you fly then? Just small planes, right?"

To which the standard response is "luckily for you, size isn't everything".... :}

Did you ever think that you might just be talking to idiots, rather than jumping straight to the sexism conclusion?

Errr.... you used the word sexism, I didn't. Call it what you like. Of course I was talking to an idiot, and, like I said, you get fed up after the 30th time of something similar. Just for the record, when he saw my expression, he followed it up with, "Well, most women can't fly. I mean, my wife doesn't fly". I think it's called digging a hole and then making it deeper.

Well, he was an idiot.

Lots of them about.

50% of them are male and 50% of them are female.

It's quite staggering to realise that 50% of the population is below average intelligence. That's a LOT of people (a few billion) so one is bound to come across them here and there.

Seems statistically unassailable, to me.

Now when I think about it, most men can't fly either.

And if I took offence when people are surprised that I can, then I would have done so many, many times over the years.

Mind you, I don't often talk about flying for two hours to non aviators, to be honest most people find it quite boring.

IO - agree about the distribution of idiots :ok:

Whirlybird, I would suggest you spend less time talking to idiots.

Anyone who refers to "Just small planes" is no aviator for a start.
Why should it be "luckily for him"? What is lucky about it?

Two hours talking about one flight - now I know you girls can talk the hind leg off .. .. .. but that is something.

I have had a few more "exciting" flights than I would wish but never managed to talk about one of those for that long. ;)

Personally I think it might have been a wind up - I can imagine making a similiar comment but NOT for the reasons you might imagine.

Why is it pilots have to spend their whole lives talking about flying - what is the old joke about how you spot a pilot.

Perhaps I should have been clearer...

There was a group of us, at a helicopter weekend, ALL talking about flying, for...two hours might be a bit of an exaggeration, ok? The idiot in question was a private owner and helicopter pilot - lots of money, no brains. He singled ME out for the comment. It didn't take a degree in rocket science or logic to realise it was because I was the only woman there. He wasn't remotely surprised that the others were pilots; after all, it was a helicopter flying weekend. What else would I have been doing there?

Phew...I think I'm getting tired of this. Trust me, I was being treated differently because I was a woman. I was there; I should know. And like I said, this is far from a rare occurrence. That's all.

but if it was a helicopter week end and you were talking (knowledgeably) about piloting then it must have been fairly obvious you were a pilot.

If, as you say, he was a pilot, then he couldnt have been completely stupid, (after all he must have passed navigation, even if you can be stupid and pass air law) so he must have been taking the p***.

Now taking the p*** is definitely not sexist. I know some girls who are able to take the p*** a lot better than most men (carefully worded as not intended to suggest that one sex is any better, or should be better, or should be presumed to be better at taking the pi**).

So, I put it to you, he was doing just that, or, if he wasnt, he thought he was being clever, which he wasnt, unless of course he was fed up with people talking about flying and happened to choose you for a dig, in which case, respectfully, perhaps the whole group should have found something more interesting to talk about (says he with far too many posts on PPrUnE).

.. and so what did you say back to him?

Fuji, he wasn't taking the piss. Banter is fine with me. But he was 100% serious. Despite my having been joining in a typical aviation conversation in which it should have been obvious that I was a pilot, he really didn't think it possible that I was one. Everyone else saw it that way too. In fact, some of the guys told me afterwards that they were very embarrassed on my behalf, and felt like they should apologise and make it clear all men weren't like that, but I told them not to worry. the whole male half of the human race doesn't need to apologise for one idiot - and as far as I'm concerned he's an idiot, however many flying exams he managed to pass.

What did I say? To be honest, I was so surprised that I didn't say anything. I was left speechless, which doesn't happen often; what was there to say? That was when he picked up on...something, and added the bit about his wife not flying. Then someone changed the subject, and that was that.

But the point I've been trying to make is that this incident is by no means unique. Similar things have happened to me many times, and to other women pilots I know too. I could give you more examples. I realise it surprises you. But seriously, that is the way things are for women in the world of aviation, even in the 21st century.

I see, but wouldnt you by now have some stock repost?

Clearly something not too subtle, or it might be lost.

Nothing staggering me - what is YOUR definition of "average" ? Or did I miss some very fine kind of subtlety, perhaps, as happened to me before?

Not much to add, not an aviator.

Uh... IO.... isn't 50% of the population below any average for that population?

Oh my god! I might have just triggered a multi page discussion about "average" vs "mean" vs "median", and some latin terms I don't know.....

I'll tell you something pilotdar. Some days it feel like a full 90+% of the population is below average intelligence! As for ryanair, doh!!! Is all I can say, were there even seats in the plane? :-) welcome back

Can't help but feel there's some big resonance with this about now:

I was taking the micky of a typical Daily Mail (a UK newspaper for the somewhat intellectually challenged) headline which goes something like

SCANDAL: 50% of schools are below average

when of course 50% will be, because that is how "average" is defined.

You don't need to be bright to pass the PPL exams. The JAA IR exams are no more demanding intellectually but they are a whole lot bigger, to make sure only those really really determined will get through.

I was again reminded of the delightful group that is PPRuNe, when I had the pleaseure of meeting three more Prooners in Europe last week, in addition to the great pleasure I had meeting yet another last fall in France. What a fun bunch!

The bash is a super idea, and I wish I could have attended. But, I could not sway my client's requirements to allow me to be near the UK that week, and indeed will be in South America, so my attendance will be hopeless!

I hope that all the Prooners who can make it, have a blast, and really appreciate what a worthwhile group we are, face to face, as well as in text!

It was a great pleasure to catch up with you at Schiphol Pilot DAR - I hope we get the chance to meet up again soon!

Likewise. Have fun in Chile!

Wow, what a thread!! Firstly, PilotDar, what a great original post as the others have said, and I must say, within my short experience of aviation from the flying side, apart from a few idiotic PPruners, I have found everyone fantastic, welcoming and being super helpful to me as a stude and willing to pass on their greater knowledge.....be they male or female.

I have spent all my career in a male dominated environment...I have had many old F**ts (male and female) patronise me. One example of such in my professional life was (and this from a female) "I suppose this is all gobledegook to you" when I was lecturing her group on the history of the Battle of Britain...I could list many such incidents and even "oh, you're a girl" or "can I speak to the Curator please", "the new Curators a very young girl, she doesn't know anything" (as an aside I was 29 at the time of this comment!)

Therefore sexism in a male dominated world does not phase me anymore, i'm used to it. The RAF are great, no problems with serving chaps, and I for one am pleased when a man wishes to behave like a gent and pull my chair out for me at dinner or open the door and let me go through it first. I never used to like this, I always used to flare, but now i realise that well, it is rather nice.

My current work colleagues are VERY un-PC, but I don't mind, I give as good as I get and its all good banter. i think maybe sometimes females take themselves and this PC stuff all too seriously. Yes, we should not return to pre-suffragette era, oh no! But I do think we have gone too far the other way sometimes.

As to my flying training. I of course have not yet been on the sharp end of aviation long enough to add much to the debate of sexism in the aviation community. however, what I can say is that I am the only female member of our club and I have received nothing but respect from 98% of the boys. Is this due to my eagerness to muck in with everything ? Maybe, but I love it and I WANT to be as involved as possible, and am considered as just like any other student pilot learning their sport. There are three members who are pains. One of whom is not a pilot but a social member. Until I had words with our CFI on the way this chap was treating me, he treated me like a god, as though i was something truly amazing as he had never met a female pilot before. he took photos at every opportunity even when i was flying solo and taxying back, he got (and still gets) in the way and won't be told. In fact this got to the creepy stage... Also, when planning our annual Fly-In last year, one of the members wives asked if I would bake some cakes....I asked whether she had also asked the single male members...and stated that I had not baked for about 20 years!! She got the message :E

But from my point of view (and maybe other female pilots) I want to be treated as a pilot (ok, then, Student Pilot before anyone corrects me on the fact that I don't have that brown booklet yet! ;)) When I am at the club I leave my gender behind and get on with the flying.

Whilst dinosaurs exist, we are never going to get rid of sexism in aviation or anywhere else for that matter. but we can at least alleviate it by female pilots showing that we are equal in our skills to our male colleagues and perhaps even more importantly to the male community who are not aircrew. I believe it was Maggie Thatcher who said that to get on in a male dominated world, a female has to be twice as good as her male counterparts. Something which I strive to be in my professional life.

I leave you with a comment written by a female ATA Lanc pilot...she had just delivered a Lanc to the Squadron and when she stepped out of the aircraft, the bemused aircrew said "Did YOU just fly that?!" Lovely!

Those people that know this username will know that the bird bit is intentional. I've been in aviation since 1999 (after a previous 2 year jaunt with the ATC). I've managed to achieve a fair amount - again, those that know me know exactly how much - and I've not experienced much in the way of overt prejudice. I'm sure there have been more subtle 'ism but I choose not to be bothered by these things. I'm just not bothered who people think flew the aeroplane that just landed (unless it was a guff landing, in which case it was definitely the other person)

What I have learned is that the people worth knowing are the people who will treat you on a meritocratic basis, rather than those who will judge on the basis of appearance.

Aviation is a world in which, amongst those who do it, there is no reasonable disadvantage on the basis of gender. There are few pursuits where this is the case, and it is true that there are far fewer women actually interested in it than men. But those that are, are as good as men are in the same relative proportions. IMO, that is, I don't have any statistically significant evidence.

I do appreciate gentlemanly behaviour in the right circumstance. It's respectful and thoughtful and I am flattered. But when I have any sort of overalls on, be it engineering, flying or otherwise, my rules are that men can fart, swear, and scratch their balls as much as they like and I will not be offended. After I've crawled down the tail of an aeroplane to clean and grease an elevator idler people see that I do stand by those rules and I'll muck in just the same.

I love aviation, and I've met and fly with some wonderful people. I enjoy challenging perceptions, so on the rare occasion of inappropriate behaviour, I see it as a chance to prove them wrong, not as a personal sleight. And that's really just an opportunity to do whatever I'm doing, to the best of my ability, and who doesn't enjoy that?

Btw not that long ago, we had a period of time at my home airfield where the tower was "manned" by a woman, the only circuit traffic was an aeroplane flown by me with a female commercial pilot as pax, with the police heli passing through also piloted by a women. The entire ATZ was female for about 15 minutes. Fact is, people fly!

It's interesting how some people have such a strong reaction to perceived inequalities.

The Police is an example, and female Police officers in particular. In some Forces you can tell if an officer is male or female by the number on their shoulder. Some women say this is discriminatory and wrong. Yet there are other women who demand to be referred to as WPC Jones, as opposed to PC Jones. What is all that about? On the one hand, it's wrong to identify a female officer as female, and on the other hand, it's wrong to not identify a female officer as such.

You just can't win.

Oddly enough I have just come back from an annual asthma assessment and the nurse admitted she'd always wanted to be a pilot, but at her girls' grammar school she was ridiculed and never seriously pursued it. Apparently her ambition was to fly a BAe 146. I said that it was never too late, even though she would possibly not get in anything bigger than a PA28 (she's a very... experienced nurse so a bit late for a change of career!) Sad that these things went on. Being a nurse is just as technical, responsible, &c. as being a pilot.

Tim

I've made a good number of great friends through flying. It's a very good community.

As for getting ridiculed, this has always gone on and aviation in particular suffers from a load of patronising old farts; most of them being instructors who want to keep you in your place so you keep hiring their beaten up wreckage on which the last "licensed engineer" practically emptied the labelling machine just making up the INOP stickers. These people will feed you any amount of bull to stop you from getting out on your own and god forbid buying your own decent plane so you can go places. And I am a bloke - or was when I last looked walking up the hill a short time ago.

It's a pity this thread got hijacked early on by the feminist crowd.

Yup! I blundered into this once, and learned my lesson hard.

30 years ago I happened upon a store in Exeter which specialized in used Meccano. I am a serious Meccano enthusiast. I very foolishly asked the female behind the counter when the owner of the shop would retuen, I had some questions. She declared that she was the owner, very promptly and precisely answered all of my questions, and put me in the place I belonged. I bought quite a bit of Meccano from her.

Slight change...u/s instruments
 

Unfortunately too true.....:hmm: Such is the way of human nature. I had a brilliant joke through about female pilots which a male (non-pilot) friend of mine sent - made me giggle, especially after having read this thread last night.

Back onto a more aviation related topic ;) Peter, I was interested by your comment above. Forgive my ignorance but methinks that if ANY instruments are u/s in an aircraft, then the whole aircraft is u/s and not flown?! In our club this is certainly the case. The only thing we will fly with (as I do frequently) is a DI which throughout a lengthy navex requires realigning with the compass. My QFI explained that this is because the instrument is just old, but it is a fault that we know about and can live with. I would be interested to hear what the experience is of those experienced ladies and gentlemen :ok: ppruners. Thanks

I've flown with all of the radio nav instruments U/S and a dodgy com radio. Not an issue when doing PPL training when I'm being taught to navigate using dead reckoning (and the second com worked fine). Eventually all the radio nav instruments were removed...
It does depend on the instrument. Sounds like you should start a new topic on this though rather than hi-jacking this one GQ!

Ok, fair point RR, it shall be done!! ;)
GQ