PPL- Spin Training
 

Hi im about to start my ppl in a pa28-161 warrior iii, and i wanted to ask if you actually do spin training as i have read that the -161 is not certified to spinning?

Thanks

if you can get a 161/181 to wing drop stall let alone spin you are doing pretty good!

Cheers, did you train in the pa28-161, if so how many lessons/hours did you spend on praticing stalling?

The syllabus requires 2 hours minimum of stall and spin awareness, expect to do a bit more than that when you include slow flight. The -161 is not cleared for deliberate spinning (nor are most PA28 variants), but in any case spinning hasn't been a part of the PPL syllabus for over 20 years. The reason it was removed, was the belief that more accidents were being caused than prevented by the training, and historical data bears that out, despite the fact that many "old guard" have been arguing for the re-inclusion of spin training ever since. If you want to learn about spinning, there's much to be said for it, but it's outside the syllabus - see if there's an aerobatic instructor and suitable aeroplane in your school, but don't do it until you've done at-least 10 hours flying (preferably 20), it'll just confuse you. The bulk of your training will be about avoiding the stall, rather than actually stalling or spinning. The flying characteristics of any PA28 make them extremely spin resistant anyhow, and you'd have to try incredibly hard to make it. The same to a large extrent is true of the stall, which requires a great deal of pull and to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever killed themselves through an inadvertent stall in a tapered wing PA28 (which includes the -161) in the UK.

Any questions?

G

Aviation Boffin.

Thanks for all the information :D, Could you please tell me a little bit more about the tapered wings?

If you get into an inadvertent spin it will almost certainly be at too low an altitude to recover, therefore virtually all nations have
removed spin training from their PPL syllabus in favor of spin avoidance training.
A spin is an aerobatic maneuver and therefore there is IMO no reason for a non acrobatically trained pilot to ever deliberately spin his/her aircraft. As for inadvertently entering a spin......well I tell my students if you get in an inadvertent spin you were stupid times three.

1) You entered slow flight without recognizing it

2) You let the aircraft stall without preventing it

3) Before unstalling the aircraft you let it yaw

I did my initial training in an Alpha 160a (NZ built robin r2160) so did all my stall training in that but as far as pa28 training, Ive done all my PA28 work in a -181 archer 2 and an archer 3. Stalling in that is the most boring stalling could ever be!! you can just hold it in the stall and when you are sick of that just add power, yes not technically a proper recovery but the plane doesnt give a crap.

The tapered wings are fitted to the -1x1 models and are very stable, some were fitted with flow disruptors on the leading edge of the inner wing section and they are there to further prevent wing drop.

The archer is a very easy plane to fly, it is forgiving (unless you are fast on approach then you will always do a floater). I preferred the alpha for going out to have some fun, its more responsive and you really feel at one with the aircraft but the PA28 is a better cruiser for your cross country training.

I agree with Big Pistons, that there is no reason for a pilot to blunder into a spin during general aviation flying. That said, I believe that spin training has merit, in that it makes the new pilot aware of what the most demanding unusual attitude recovery would be. If you are comfortable recovering a spin, you can feel confident. I used to be surprised how many pilots I fly with have never spun. Now I realize it's just not trained any more.

The testing I do includes the requirement to spin many aircraft. Though I agree that is well out of the norm, it is still a good exercise, and I'm glad for my early training in spins, and practice all the years along the way.

I do believe that once you start instructing, or even checking out other pilots, spin recovery proficiency is vital. Similarly, commercial flying of a patrolling, photography, or unusual attitude nature should be flown by spin trained pilots.

I think it is a loss, that the desire to streamline flight training, is causing the removal of some subjects - including spinning. I hope instructors take the opportunities available, to familiarize their students with spins anyway.

If you can - spin....

I will always demonstrate spins to students at some point in their training, but I make it clear it is a demonstration, rather than a full teaching element. Why? I think you can talk about spinning with her autorotations, inverted possibilities and this and that until the cows come home, and talk about recoveries in that too - Does it make sense to the student? I think not. Show them a spin, show them a recovery and it'll click. However, to become efficient and fully competent at spin recovery requires a lot more practice, which is why I demonstrate, as opposed to teach.
Some may argue that the demonstrations make your average PPL holder think they can cope with spins - From the expressions on their face, I can say no, and most return post PPL and ask for spin training or aerobatic training - And I'm happy to oblige!

I'm going to omit names and places in the following account.

With a gliding "Silver C", and the necessary written exams passed (barely) I asked to fly with the Chief of a training establishment to go for the PPL, as it was rumored he was experienced in doing that particular conversion, needing only 8 or 10 hours to accomplish in those days.

I think he was of the opinion I was a pain in the butt, and he didn't really want to fly with me. It was my first flight in a Cessna 152, I was too ignorant to make sure I was strapped in correctly, able to reach the controls comfortably. I also mentioned I was nervous about spinning.....

The day was not completely VFR, we ascended through some broken cu, to the practice area. I did turns, etc etc. He seemed impatient, in a hurry to get it over with. So after 20 minutes, he said "I have control!" and put the Aerobat into a truly nasty spin. 3 turns, and handed it back to me on the downwind leg. I think he really wanted to discourage me from flying with him again, it certainly had that effect. Made a point after that, NOT of spin avoidance, but Chief avoidance! and completed the training with an eager younger instructor.

Not only certain instructors should be avoided, but certain aircraft as well.
We do a lot of spin training in gliders. There are some types with excellent safety records. And there are other types.

Ghengis, I wouldn't dispute the need for a significant amount of stall/spin awareness training but can you point me in the direction of a specified 2hr syllabus requirement? The old CAA system required 4hrs SSAT but, as far as I'm aware, there is no specified time requirement under JAA (or whatever authority we are currently operating under :eek: ).

The only circumstance I can think of is aggressive avoiding action in a close airprox, but the probability is pretty low.

Much more likely to get into trouble in the circuit, where you would be very lucky to recover, stall/spin avoidance training has always made a lot of sense to me.

One of my US instructors told me, a long time ago, that if you did manage to get a PA28 taper wing into a spin (which, he said, in itself was no mean feat), unless you were in the utility category, it might spin flat and be unrecoverable, this being one of the reasons Piper never sought spinning certification.

Anyone else heard that one? True or urban legend?

Id be surprised, there is a strong pitch forward at the stall int eh PA28-181, I am under the belief that to flat spin you would have to have at least a neutral pitching moment at the stall.

I may be wrong because I've only done stalls in the PA28-181 with the two rear seats empty

There certainly was when I completed my first JAR licence in 2000, but I've just tried to look it up and yes - I think you're correct, that minimum hour requirement no longer exists.

G

Any significant tendency towards an unrecoverable spin would have prevented certification at-all. The issue is, I think, simply that Piper didn't feel it necessary to do the significant extra work (and attract the significant extra product liability) if the aeroplane was certified for deliberate spinning.

Answering an earlier question, in the early 1970s, Piper switched from a straight wing to a tapered wing on the PA28. The tapered wing aircraft (-161, -181, -200R...) have a virtually zero incidence of stall related fatal accidents; the older straight wing aeroplanes (-140, -150, -160, -180...) have a good, but not a zero rate of stall related fatal accidents.

There were other changes at the same time (such as a shift from a visual to an audio stall warner) so the wing itself may, or may not, be the reason for this change.

G

Let's remind ourselves that the design requirements for all single engined aircraft certified under CAR 3 or FAR 23 must comply with 23.221 (1).....:

(iii) [ It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or during the spin; and

I have spun many certified types during flight testing, and never had a problem. The differences I have seen, seem to be will it come out on it's own, or do I have to actually work to recover it. The Cessna 206 with an aft C of G did require aggressive recovery, and the 185 floatplane was similar. That said, this is a "don't try this at home folks" situation, the fact that spinning is possible in these aircraft does not mean that you won't be getting close to limits during recoveries. When I test, I have an accelerometer, so as to be precise when recovering from resulting dives.

My spins earlier this month were in a Grand Caravan. It is magnifently designed from a flying point of view, though again, the C of G position greatly changed the spin recovery characteristics. Maximum rate of descent during recovery, 9200 FPM, while seeing 2.8 G at .9 Vne.

Here's a tail video camera snapshot (im still trying to figure out how to edit 15 seconds, out of an hour long video of the second spin flight!)

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...eosnapshot.jpg

Lots of good things being said about spin training in general. I think it's justified that it's no longer part of the core PPL syllabus, partly because it may well have increased the accident rate instead of reducing it, and partly because the situation where you might get into an inadvertent spin if you're not careful (in the circuit, turning to final) is unrecoverable anyway. So the emphasis on stall recognition/avoidance is something I fully agree with.

But I also think it's a good idea to do some spin training, with a properly certified aircraft, a suitable instructor, in a suitable bit of airspace and with suitable weather. Just to get a feel for what's it like to fly at the edges of the envelope and beyond. However, if you do something like that, I think you should make it into a proper Unusual Attitudes training, covering not just spins and spin recovery, but also:
- Departure stalls: Stalls with full power and a ridiculously high fuselage angle. They do happen if people go from a high-powered airframe to an identical, but lower powered airframe, and misjudge the initial climb angle.
- High-speed stalls, for instance done in full-power, very steep (75 degrees or more) steep turns, to show that, indeed, an aircraft can stall at any speed and any attitude. (You might also want to include ballistic flight, stall turns and wingovers to show that an aircraft can also fly - briefly - below Vs.)
- Recovery from almost-Vne dives (at least well above Vno)
- Recovery from upset situations, for instance from inverted flight
- In-flight engine restarts (plus you'll find how hard it actually is to stop a fixed-pitch engine in-flight)
- Extreme side/forward slipping with or without flaps (very useful technique in case of an engine failure, to make the field when you're too high)
- Steep descending turns (controlled spiral dives) - the fastest controlled method to get down on the ground in case of, e.g., fire on board. And the proper recovery technique of course. Roll, then pitch, but not simultaneously.

And I'm sure there are other things you can throw in here as well.

I think Backpacker is spot on.

The first thing I did after getting my PPL was schedule an hour of spin training. I had never been comfortable in stalls and did manage to initiate a 1/4 turn spin in a C152 while badly dorking up solo stall practice - that scared the hell out of me. I was apprehensive in the spin training as we climbed and prepared for the spin until the wing dropped and it started to autorotate. At that point, it became the most fun I'd ever had!! As soon as the nose dropped to the left, it became an unmitigated blast!

More than that, though, it removed the fear of the unknown - just what is on the back side of a spin that's so dangerous that you can't do them in PPL training? Answer - not much, really. It's a completely controllable maneuver in most airplanes. In fact, in aerobatic types, you can control the recovery to within less than 90 degrees of an intended recovery point. Spins of 1 1/4 and such are routine maneuvers in aerobatic contests.

After just that one spin session, I was no longer afraid of the airplane falling out of the sky, unusual attitudes didn't bother me, and my confidence in the aircraft and in myself skyrocketed.

Definitely do it!

Depends on the format, but VirtualDub is free and does simple edits. And SUPER, though a pain in various ways, can convert from and to a lot of formats, so if VirtualDub can't read the video you can fix it. GSpot will tell you the format if you need to know. These are free tools - Avid, Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas, etc will do a more sophisticated job at significant cost.

B

- Departure stalls: Yes, a JAA requirement
- High-speed stalls, for instance done in full-power, very steep (75 degrees or more) steep turns, to show that, indeed, an aircraft can stall at any speed and any attitude. (You might also want to include ballistic flight, stall turns and wingovers to show that an aircraft can also fly - briefly - below Vs.) - Sort of covered under JAA. Certainly the increased wing loading bit is a requirement.
- Recovery from almost-Vne dives (at least well above Vno) - Good idea. Probably could be covered as part of the spiral dive scenario.
- Recovery from upset situations, for instance from inverted flight Yes. Normally covered from Ex6 onwards although I don't think the majority would experience inverted flight (aircraft limitations).
- In-flight engine restarts (plus you'll find how hard it actually is to stop a fixed-pitch engine in-flight) Dunno about this one. A bit of risk involved. The first time I did this was on my FI course.
- Extreme side/forward slipping with or without flaps (very useful technique in case of an engine failure, to make the field when you're too high) Slipping is part of the AOPA (UK) 'syllabus' and I would think that it is pointless teach it half heartedly.
- Steep descending turns (controlled spiral dives) - the fastest controlled method to get down on the ground in case of, e.g., fire on board. And the proper recovery technique of course. Roll, then pitch, but not simultaneously. A JAA requirement.

In summary, many good suggestions that should already be taught.

Even if it is a good idea to bring back Spin training...

The overwhelming majority of FI's who have qualifed in the last 10 years are going to need to do some training before they demonstrate it never mind teach it.

The skill base has gone now, if you brought it in again without trying to get some experence back it would be carnage.

I have done a reasonable amount of spinning in tommys and Cessna and in no way would I call myself an expert. 2-3 times I have managed to get the aircraft into a mode of spin which doesn't recover with the POH "method" of recovery. Thankfully in my FIC the FII managed to flick over in a steep turn into spin and we had to increase the power to get the rudder working again to get out of it. Well we only had 700 ft agl left when we recovered.

I can see Darwin effect removing an awful lot of talent limited instructors from the instructors pool if they bring it back.

Yes, all of these (the list) should be taught. It's up to instructors to make their students aware that there are many other valuable things to be learned, which are not in the scope of the main training for a PPL.

It's up to the students (and pilots in general) to recognize the true value of this training, and assure that they receive it! And recurrantly.

Some of the flight tests I fly are in the company of another pilot. I've stopped being surprised by the pilots telling me that either they have never spun, or have not spun since they did their PPL x years ago.... "Well, I'm going to brief you for spins, and we're going to do some..."

MJ, yes the lime green hurt my eyes as well!

I suppose the bottom line is whether FICs choose to cover every exercise described in Standards Doc 10.

They cover it yes but that will be the first time the person has seen a spin.

They will normally have done it in a "o bollocks" let go of everything "oooo look its recovered" cessna.

They might save there bum if they are really really lucky, but demonstrate it never mind patter it. No chance.

Less than five degrees is the norm. And you need to hit exactly 90 degrees nose down after rotation has stopped. Otherwise points will be deducted.

In certification flight testing, the point system for spins, for normal category airplanes, is much simpler: After one turn, recovers in no more than one additional turn = 1 point. Does not recover within one additional turn = 0 points, and no approval!

Ah, no, that would be too simple. Then the jury wouldn't have anything to do anymore...:ok:

And i am normally just happy the farker has stopped turning and don't really care where its pointing

Yeah, OK, the pedants caught me out on the spin recovery accuracy. I was just trying to make a point to the OP that spins are completely controllable and not the dreaded "death spiral" one wayward flight instructor described them as to a prospective student's girlfriend. (mind you, he was a frustrated fast-jet-jock-wannabe who tried to build himself up in hopelessly sad ways).

Yeah, that's better... If I'm recovered from a spin in the nearest half turn I planned, I'm pretty happy with myself. I no longer prolong spins beyond what I'm required to do. One turn in, one more turn out, if all goes as planned. Indeed, the Caravan, I could not hold in any more, it was recovering itself....

That must be why we never see Caravans entered in aerobatic competitions.

I would just LOVE to see a Caravan in an aerobatic competition!

I bet there are some tricks it could do....slow flying? precision flour bombing?

How about this trick?

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...MG_5015001.jpg

That's a very good trick.....I presume the Caravan is towing a target? And that the seats in the Caravan have bulletproof bottoms......

Hmmm, target.... I would have thought you'd be wondering what kind of glider I was towing Mary! It's a magnetic geological survey system.

At least you could jettison it with out feeling bad, or needing to buy a round of beers :-)

Also somebody said it was hard to wing drop a PA28 try asymetric fuel loading and pick your windward wing :-) works a treat.

Done this in a tommie too, the thing turned on its back!

With great thanks to Bern4444, I have edited out the pertinent 30 seconds of my Caravan spinning video, and got it to Youtube. I'm still advertizing for the software, but that's just fine, 'cause it worked!



Thanks Shy Torque.... I think I've got it now

Pilot DAR, to insert a Youtube link:

Go to the video in question and copy everything after the "=" sign by highlighting it and pressing CTRL and C on your keyboard.

Go to "edit post" now, seeing as you've already posted it and delete what you've already tried.

Click on the "youtube" symbol to insert that in your post. Then put your cursor in the middle of the insert and press "CTRL" and "V" to insert the link to the video.

Make sure you haven't included the "="; you need everything after that.

That should do it!

Spinning used to be used as a cloud break method pre war (not that i was around then) but it was stable, slow speed and allowed an aircraft to descend through cloud in a fairly set position.

I can remember reading a report of a flight test on a four seater canard. The test pilot got into a flat spin and as the aircraft was the only test machine they had he tried to save it by climbing out and putting his weight on the canard. That failed by which time he was too low to bail out. He stayed with the aircraft which spun harmlessly onto a beach with only minor damage and none to the pilot.

I am cautious of pilots being taught to drive aeroplanes rather than to fly. Flying is about knowing your aircraft and what it will do or can do if misused.
We all know a spiral dive which is a much more violent manouvre than a spin.
Really its about confidence in being trained to appreciate all your aircraft is capable of doing.

Go into multi engine stalling and the possibility of adding unequal power on recovery and you have the danger of a spin. IMC is another area.
I appreciate there may be more spinning accidents while training to do them.
I appreciate a spin will be different 2 up compared to a loaded 4 seater but those are not arguements against spin training. They may be arguements about what you train in? and with who?

But to turn out a well trained and rounded pilot he needs to know all that his aircraft is capable of doing. He needs to be taught to FLY not drive aeroplanes.

Pace

Spinning used to be used as a cloud break method pre war (not that i was around then) but it was stable, slow speed and allowed an aircraft to descend through cloud in a fairly set position.

I can remember reading a report of a flight test on a four seater canard. The test pilot got into a flat spin and as the aircraft was the only test machine they had he tried to save it by climbing out and putting his weight on the canard. That failed by which time he was too low to bail out. He stayed with the aircraft which spun harmlessly onto a beach with only minor damage and none to the pilot.

I am cautious of pilots being taught to drive aeroplanes rather than to fly. Flying is about knowing your aircraft and what it will do or can do if misused.
We all know a spiral dive which is a much more violent manouvre than a spin.
Really its about confidence in being trained to appreciate all your aircraft is capable of doing.

Go into multi engine stalling and the possibility of adding unequal power on recovery and you have the danger of a spin.Hence why we do multi engine stall training several thousand feet up! IMC is another area.

I appreciate there may be more spinning accidents while training to do them.
I appreciate a spin will be different 2 up compared to a loaded 4 seater but those are not arguements against spin training. They may be arguements about what you train in? and with who?

I would recommend any pilot do a couple of aerobatic sessions in an aerobatic aircraft with an instructor as it will improve your abilities as a pilot and your confidence in handling an aircraft.

But to turn out a well trained and rounded pilot he needs to know all that his aircraft is capable of doing. He needs to be taught to FLY not drive aeroplanes.

Pace