How rude
 

So there we were today number 1 at the holding point with 2 other aircraft behind us for runway 10 at Leicester. Circuit extremely busy with both training and visiting aircraft etc and the radio operator doing a valiant job of trying to ease the situation. After holding for about 7 or 8 minutes, some kind soul on Final offers to go-around in order to provide a window of opportunity to clear the backlog at the hold (thanks!). The radio operator calls my aircraft up asking if we're ready for departure and my student replies in the affirmative. Student then announces 'lining up'.... We roll out onto the runway, and backtrack about 20m. As we turn around to commence takeoff, some ignorant s@d in a Pitts scoots onto the runway ahead of us, slams the power on and takes off. Sadly this kind of impatience and poor airmanship seems to happen more often than it used to. I'm also seeing more aircraft landing on runways whilst they're still occupied by other aircraft, or aircraft lining up whilst others still backtracking.... The worry is as the operating costs go up, I expect we'll see even more of this kind of thing happening - but it's pretty shabby in my opinion.

I'm sure that student pilots don't believe half of the 'did I tell you about the time when' stuff that instructors moan about.... So on a positive note, whoever was 'piloting' the Pitts provided my student with a great insight into the kinds of behaviour they'll be encountering when they acquire their licence. But if the 'pilot' hasn't got enough money to pay for another couple of minutes fuel at the hold, perhaps they should consider flying something more affordable?

Rant over.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if the circuit was busy and you are holding for extreme lengths of time, then whilst you are backtracking it is an ideal time for something of the Pitts ground roll to nip in front and climb away. If it was anything on similar power levels to your own aircraft I would agree on the poor airmanship principle.

Glush

I am sure you are entirely correct in the circumstances you encountered.

However to offer another perspective there are occasions when an experienced pilot can safely take advantage of an opportunity without causing any inconvenience.

At my home airport there are two routes onto one of the runways. Many a time I have pulled up immediately after the aircraft ahead at the hold. Familiarity enables me sometimes to rattle through the checks whereas it is obvious the aircraft ahead has a student aboard and the pace is much slower. With the luxury of a quick call to AT and the requested departure from the interesection is granted although to by knowledge sometimes to the annoyance of the aircraft ahead. Why? If they werent ready (still turned into wind doing power checks) why so precious?

Perhaps the answer if in doubt was "G-XXXX ready immediate unless any objection intending to depart while G-YYYY is back tracking".

The CAP watch dogs will almost certainly object to such terribly non standard RT but sometimes plain English has its merits.

Well described analogy

I'm thinking along the same lines. Was your departure in any way delayed because the Pitts nipped in front? Was there any doubt in your, or the students mind, about the intentions of the Pitts? Was safety compromised because you had already started your take-off roll when he nipped in front? Was this a "heavy" Pitts that forced you to wait unexpectedly because of wake turbulence?

If not, then I'd say the Pitts did the right thing - optimize runway usage.

Nitpicking here, but shouldn't you have announced "backtracking" first? That way the Pitts maybe could've nipped in front of you even sooner. (I'm assuming that backtracking for a whopping 20m is somehow common practice for your training fleet, but that not all aircraft need that additional 20m for a safe take-off. So the information about whether you were going to line-up immediately, or do a backtrack and then line-up would be relevant for the Pitts.)

Same here. Fortunately we're blessed with wide taxiways (they need to be wide enough for 737s after all) so my call in those situations is typically "Ready for departure number two, able to pass".

... have to disagree. Our aircraft was already occupying the runway and had turned around to commence takeoff. It wasn't a case of a student taking longer to do checks etc, it was just poor airmanship on the part of an impatient Pitts driver. The other aircraft holding behind it didn't seem to have a problem with waiting their turn.... And our aircraft actually has a better takeoff and climb performance than a Pitts, so not sure that would be relevant mitigation either. Sadly, it's just cr@p airmanship.

“And our aircraft actually has a better takeoff and climb performance than a Pitts,”

Which invites two questions, what were you in and why did you waste valuable runway time backtracking 20m in such an aircraft?

Rod1

... ever heard the legend that goes something like, "nothing so useless as runway behind you"?

As I explain to my student pilots, it might save 30 seconds or so, but just imagine going through the hedge/fence/gate at the other end of the runway by 2 metres, when you could have gained yourself an extra 20m? Or that engine failure after takeoff that you could have got back down onto the runway with stopping distance to spare.... It's not so much to do with takeoff performance as 'stopping' performance. Perhaps when they start fitting ABS to aircraft we won't have to worry about such things..... but until then, I'll continue to encourage my guys to take the extra few seconds.

Notwithstanding the likely pointlessness of the 20m backtrack, and any difference in types - entering a runway, without any RT communications, after an aeroplane in front of you has called "lining up" is p***-poor airmanship, I have to agree with glush.

G

The bottom line lies in:

In the absence of a clearance from an air traffic controller, it's just rude to nip out in front of another aircraft on the runway. The pilot of the Pitts looses a point...

Rudeness is immaterial.

The Pitts was wrong to do what he did without notifying the other aircraft already lined up. Without calling, he doesn't know if the aircraft behind him is already at max throttle and about to overtake him.

Now, with a call, I've got no issues with him.

There's nothing wrong with doing something non-standard, as long as appropriate deconfliction and comms are used. Without them, though...

Glush

So what was your aircraft? I am genuinely interested as I have a little Pitts time; I cant think of any aircraft that would typically be used for student training that would outperform a Pitts; I appreciate you might not have being doing ab initio training.

I agree about runway ahead, but to be fair, you took your decision and the other pilot was entitled to take his. He accepted not using the full runway length and he alone was responsible for that decision.

I also agree that if you had turned and the Pitts "infringed" the runway after your turn then his airmanship was poor. If he had lined up and started his roll while you were backtracking and before you had completed your turn that might be a diffferent matter.

I am not sure what the aircraft did behind the Pitts is relevant - after all he was never going to be in a position to "take" an immediate.

Events such as this are always going to be a matter of judgement. You are an isntrutor so I would expect your judgement to be sound. I have seen novices very unhappy with the action of other pilots whereas in fact what the other pilot did was perfectly safe and not the least inconsiderate.

It is impossible to be critical about the events you describe for that reason because I can see circusmtances in which the Pitts pilot had not behaved unreasonably and equally, dependent on the Pilot's timing, the actions of a rather pushy and inconsiderate pilot. However, at least it is difficult to construct an argument that the other pilot's actions were actually dangerous, which is at least some help, while not an excuse for his actions.

You comment about aircraft landing while the runway is still occupied. I dont entirely follow your point. You will be familiar with the instruction to "land after", are you uncomfortable with a pilot accepting a land after clearance unless the pilot is absolutely certain the runway will be completely vacated or are you referring only to fields without air traffic?

PS - I am assuming Leicester is still A/G (it was the last time I was there). If so I agree with the other posters, the very least the Pitts should have done is announce his intentions. If Leicester now has AT then of course it is tea without bickies, the Pitts had no clearance and the pilot should be shot.

I take the same view as Glush in that human nature will inevitably regard this type of "pushing in" as intensely annoying and unforgivably rude as far as the average Englishman is concerned. None of us would simply say nothing if someone barged in front of us in a queue at the Post Office or chip shop, and philosophical thoughts along the lines of "did it really do much to inconvenience me" cut little mustard. I have had exactly the same situation occur to me (ironically in reverse) at Beverly last year when an instructor with student barged past me completely unannounced, while I was still doing run up checks at the hold, and sailed off into the distance in front of me. (Marvellous demonstration of airmanship for an aspiring pilot) A few days later another instructor following my aircraft after a go around on an obstructed runway at Breighton, obviously decided that my idea of a conventional circuit was far too time consuming for him to bother with and he simply turned his following go around "circuit" into an orbit over the field directly behind me and a quick reposition back to finals while I was still downwind. Did it inconvenience me? no not strictly. Did it annoy me? Bloody right it did.

glush, I think you are correct on both points.

If you've already backtracked & lined-up 20m from the HP entry and are pointing the right way about to commence the take-off, then the Pitts shouldn't have entered in front of you. I would maybe look at it as you were taking off, the Pitts was taxiing, therefore you have right of way, Leicester being A/G radio.

Where possible I would always use as much runway length as I could, 20m may not be a lot but as you say, every metre can be crucial in the event of an emergency. A few years ago the club where I worked had a guy put a PA28 in the hedge at the end of the runway following an EFATO , I think an extra 20m would have made the difference that day.

Flybymike, you are kidding, right? If you cannot takeoff on reaching the holding point because of checklists, run ups or whatever, park to the side and let the others through. Why make them wait? When did that airport become your property?
I am amazed also at pilots who think they can enter a runway then hold while completing checks, never mind any airplane on final. What if the landing airplane was a glider?
And how did that airplane landing behind you affect you, in any way? You have no idea if he had a problem with an engine, or a need to be on the ground without delay. If he had asked for the orbit at a controlled airport he would have been given it immediately and it still would have had no effect on your flight.
I have had radio problems at times, thinking I was transmitting or receiving when I was not, so I am not so quick to find fault with others. There is no place in aviation for impatience, yours or theirs. If the airport is not controlled, please share it sensibly.
Try to be more accommodating with others; give them some leeway. In turn they will do the same for you.

glush
 

I can't help feeling that the real reason for this post is that you feel irritated at the guy in the Pitts getting off ahead of you however I think his airmanship might be a little suspect if no radio calls were made.

As you say the CCT was busy so the fact that the guy in the Pitts could get away while you were back tracking he did in fact ease the congestion.

I operate from an airfield that is very busy and I know that it takes low time students a long time to get the checks done properly and so position the aircraft in a way to avoid delays to traffic that arrives at the hold behind me.

Most of the congestion at small airfields is is due to students being taught to fly overly large CCT's and long approaches, some of the CCT's I have seen flown are so large that a 737 could fly a tighter CCT!

This thing about aircraft landing on a runway that is still occupied by another aircraft is pure rubbish. as long as the other aircraft is far enough along the runway for a safe landing to be made the why not "land after".
The worrying thing is that the powers that be in light aviation seem to find the "land after" unacceptable and issue a go around order at the drop of a hat, it seems that the only place that I now regularly get a land after clearance is at Gatwick.

Surely a significant purpose of the 'Rules of the Air' is to keep order and maintain safety at airfields lacking an Air Traffic Service. The law nust be observed otherwise we have anarchy (and accidents). Too frequently there is an insidious decline into sloppy procedures.....the AAIB record the ensuing details!

A and C

Landing on a runway which is already occupied by another aircraft is illegal, except where this is authorised by an air traffic controller. Notwithstanding the inherent risks (where full ATC is not provided) pilots who feel it is a convenient way of saving time (and can't be bothered going around) are leaving themselves open to prosecution.

Here are the relevant excerpts from the ANO:

(2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.

(5) Paragraphs (2) and (4) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome otherwise authorises the flying machine or glider.

I was parked to the side, which is how he had room to move past me. I had just completed checks and was about to line up when he pushed past me with no comment. I consider that rude and dangerous.

I had not entered the runway and did not say that I had.

He landed by cutting in front of me by flying an unannounced abbreviated circuit behind me (effectively an orbit above the airfield at a couple of hundred feet.) As well as cutting in front of me he might well have been turning back against landing traffic behind him.

If I failed to make myself clear in my original post I apologise. If I did make myself clear, please read my posts more carefully before criticising them.

Standard practice at Stapleford, and to a lesser degree at Duxford.

It's not too bad if done by some aeros pilot who knows what he is doing. The problem (at Stapleford) is that it is done even by Cessna occupants who often have an instructor in the RHS. They are not so good and usually force the next person (on final) to go around.

If no special procedures have been published, keep the pattern as small as possible so that everyone can see you.

Larger/faster aircraft will need to fly a larger pattern.

But if you're a slow plane and flown way out there (say more than 1 1/4 miles), most will assume you have left the field.

glush
 

While excepting you interpritation of rule 5 I have to ask how a gilder can go around on short final if someone is slow to clear the runway?

A rule that is imposable to comply with is a bad rule and should be changed.

I have no idea what the ATC situation is at the airfield you are flying at and my comments about "land after" instructions were aimed at some of the smaller airfields with full ATC. It could not be otherwise because it takes a full ATC unit to issue such an instruction.

Not withstanding the instruction if you think it is not safe you should go around.

A and C

As a small point of order I think it can be misleading to regard a land after clearance as an instruction, because it implies you must land behind the aircraft on the runway. As we know it is wholly up to the pilot to decide whether he considers it safe to land after - in effect it is a "land at your discretion IF you consider you can safely stop before colliding with the aircraft yet to vacate"

and on that topic if a vehicle is checking the runway can AT give a land after clearance? You would have thought so, but you would be wrong.

and back to topic - what service does Leicester offer these days - is it A/g, FICO, or AT?

and Glush did you not want to tell us the type of aircraft you were flying?

glush..........

You have still not told us what type of a/c you and your student were flying. Classfied information?!!!!!!

Planemike

G-INFO says G-LUSH is a PIPER PA-28-151.

I doubt it would outclimb a Pitts, or whether the Pitts caused them any delay.

Its a bit like when someone in a Porsche uses the outside lane at traffic lights to out accelerate to get ahead of a learner driver. Pi$$es you off but....

I think Leicester is just A/G and maybe the Pitts just said "XX departing yy" and you missed it. He probably didn't go through the whole" Leicester this is G-XXXX requesting radio check for a local flight.... etc etc."

I doubt there was any safety issue

If the PA28 was still back tracking, then maybe, with a radio call stating intentions.

But it doesn't seem that way. In which case, I think it was rank bad airmanship.

Pitts by name and pitts by nature.

We don't know the full facts - and never will. Neither do we have the interpretation of all parties to review. Such a forum post makes one suspicious of long standing simmering resentment between the airfield users.

Any sensible instructor receiving a call from a Pitts to jump ahead at the intersection so allowing the student to back track line up and collect their thoughts for a few minutes, without delaying others, would be delighted to say yes. Why would you want a faster aircraft, with bugger all field of view, coming after you wondering where the hell you are? To respond negatively to such a call or be irritated not to have received one is irrational and peevish.

Students are taught the importance of human factors. Being unable to cope with an immediate, perceived, act of injustice perpetrated against one can lead to aberrant behaviour eg road rage. In this situation should the instructor have taxied back, lodged his complaint with the CFI, calmed down over a cup of tea rather than taking of in a red mist is open for debate.

Training is the lifeblood for many clubs, but this does not give instructors irrational rights of claim to real estate both on the ground and in the circuit - it's always a balance.

10 at Leicester is a hard 940m long (licensed) runway. Your description was that the circuit was extremely busy. You were flying an aircraft, which will “out perform a Pitts”. A Typical Pitts would get airborne in less than 200m and has a R of C around 2500fpm. Was blocking the runway to backtrack 20m really in the spirit of things? Had you not backtracked the 20m, the Pits would not have pushed in and the runway usage would still have been optimised.

Rod1

I was at Leicester yesterday and thought it was a bit of a mess! You had a busy airfield and yet people were landing and backtracking runway10! Come on guys and instructors clear the runway at the end rather than making guys go around.

Could have done with a bit more authority from the radio operator! Other than that I thought it was a damn good place to visit with a great cafe!

PB

A worthwhile read

ISBN-13: 978-0070342842

Redefining Airmanship - what did you learn?

That pprune doesn't necessarily engender airmanship :)

Now there is a thought.

Another is you dont often get a very symphathetic hearing on PPRuNe unless you are on solid ground.

Cluttering up a busy runway
 

Okay, guys, just for your amusement.

I was flying a single seat glider; from Aston Down on a wonderful day, flew all the way to GREAT YARMOUTH. North Dene airfield down there, according to my map.

Considered completing 300 k by turning an oil rig out to sea, but chickened out from that idea, and after flying up and down the beach a few times, seeing absolutely NO traffic of any sort at North Dene, set up a circuit and came in to land. Without radio, couldn't tell anyone of my intent.

As it had been a long flight, about five hours altogether, it did not occur to me to let the glider roll off the runway. I opened the canopy and heaved a sign of relief at having safely landed, when a red Landrover swung round in front of me, four guys jumped out and without a word shoved me and the glider off the side of the runway. And then they jumped back in the Rover and roared back to the tower.

Seems North Dene was used only by North Sea Helicopters. And coincidental with my arrival, for the very first time in the year, a helicopter was coming in with one engine out, and 14 people on board, thereby unable to hover and in need of the runway in the middle of which was parked me and the glider. When told about the situation I could only apologise abjectly. Ever after I do my best, when landing at an airfield, no matter how little traffic may be in evidence, to roll the glider out of the way before it runs out of energy!

Of course glider pilots landing at gliding fields are quite used to having six or seven gliders coming down at once, especially in competitions; we do have rules, and we do look out carefully, and we do talk to each other on the radio.

As yes...gliders and competitions. ;)

I remember Zulu Alpha giving a gaggle of gliders turning up without warning at the Power Aerobatic Nationals at Conington a very warm welcome....was that really 5 years ago?

I wonder if the right seater in the backtracking a/c wears epaulettes ?

SGC

5 yrs ago/
 

yep Ed - it was. My last domestic comp in the old svelte Ed days!

As a Pitts pilot, I'm horrified by the decription of the incursion by the op.
Makes me feel like a member of a renegade biker gang - poor show :(

However, if I'd been at the 10 hold in a Pitts that was prone to overheat and the OP backtracked, I would have been tempted and after a radio call would have gone and hauled it into a tight right turn - by the time i regained r/w hdg, I'd be out of the top of the circuit...

wasn't there - dunno but it hardly sounds like a lynch mob is required

Stik

.... of course you do have to remember that all Pitts Pilots are rude boys!!!

I'm surprised the PA28 didn't pull over to one side to let him past!!...maybe that's what the Pitts pilot thought he was doing when he turned the wrong way onto the runway!

Might be worth checking up what a radio operator is allowed to do!

Flybymike, not meaning to insult you; I was not there. Maybe I was generalising.
What about my comments re patience and accommodation? Do you agree with them?
I have seen the problems caused by pilots who demand access to runways or airspace (I am not saying this was the case here) causing student pilots to make errors in their attempts to get out of the way. So long as we don't know the reason for the unusual activity (which could be a variety of reasons from mechanical difficulties, radio problems, unfamiliarity, lack of proper training, etc) we should give the benefit of the doubt and give them room. If we get to fly another 10 minutes, isn't that what we are doing there anyway?
They call it a brotherhood of flight for a reason.