CFIT
 

YouTube - Close call with terrain :eek:

I hope FAA got the video and details about this pilot.

Holy s :mad: t :ooh:

There's 4 folks in Algonquin Park, Ontario doing pretty much the same stupidity who were not as lucky:(

What tossers!
 

I can't believe they were laughing about it on the ground afterwards.

Maybe some of these scary videos should be shown to us when we are students?
Lister

Just plodding along in zero vis in a valley.
Might as well drive down the M1 with your eyes closed...

Pathetic

Crikey! The ONLY options you have when entering IMC inadvertently at low level are an immediate 180* turn to get out of it straight away or if you have the IF skills an immediate climb to above safety altitude and pick up a radar service.

To happily continue not just below safety altitude but actually below the height of surrounding terrain is suicidal. I cannot comprehend how these guys would consider that a reasonable course of action.

To fly like that is sheer folly.

To put it on YouTube is almost as stupid.... :hmm:

I once had a very narrow escape when a road went over a rise and suddenly dead ended at the lip of a steep slope without any signs posted:mad: I stopped a few feet short from going over the edge and the first thing I did was an involuntary laugh. I witnessed the same reaction from another driver whose car overturned, but was uninjured.

It happens when you can't believe your extremely lucky escape:}

RatherBeFlying,

But it's usually during aforementioned stupid laugh that your demise will come about in a very unexpected (and somewhat comical) way! For example, banana skin, acidic bird s**t etc :)

p.s. regarding the vid, some posters have referred to the two gentleman up front as pilots... really?

I am sure many people have done worse stuff but it did not end up on film. There are plenty of clowns around.

I know one man who was flying along in poor vis, in and out of IMC, and a wind turbine blade passed right in front of him. He never did that again...

I think a 180 is the best option unless one has a GPS running a real topo chart. A climb straight ahead, say +500fpm, could just take you into a hill.

But why fly so low to start with?

If you can't get out with a 180 turn, put the plane down before you are in cloud. Climbing without a good, preplanned, gps track, will have a high risk of hitting something in hilly country.
Why fly a single engine over cloud covered mountains? You're safer following the valleys, provided you keep a few hundred feet below any cloud you see, as well as a few hundred feet above the terrain, and for your legal visibility take the distance at which you can see a low cloud against a grey background, not a white house on dark moorland.

CFIT
 

Not sure I would call this CONTROLLED flight into terrain...:=

Errr.... no, you are most definitely NOT safer doing this :eek: What you describe here is the route to perdition of several pilots every year - ducking under a cloud base, getting further and further into a valley. Until there is no more space to turn. The result is usually contained in an AAIB report :sad:

I don't fly valleys unless I can see a way through. With 1000+ feet between surface and cloud, it's safer than on top with a single engine.. If I do get caught, without being able to do a 180, I'll put the plane down rather than climb into cloud.

Good luck to you - just don't take any passengers :ugh::ugh:

I agree 100% with 172driver.

Loads of people get killed every year doing this. It requires expert local knowledge, very good aircraft handling (slow speed turns, etc), and appreciation of local weather conditions.

I have overflown the Alps and other bits, above an overcast. The only risk is an engine failure, but scud running in the valleys carries many more risks than that.

The key is not to get yourself in a situation where inadvertent IMC becomes a possibility in the first place. It should almost always be avoidable in recreational flying. If it looks unavoidable, a precautionary landing would be advisable.

If inadvertent IMC does occur, I believe that the best course of action for a non IMCR/IR pilot is the 180* level turn. For a pilot and aircraft capable of instrument flight it is my opinion that climbing to safety altitude is generally the safest option. If there is hilly terrain in the area, maneouvring laterally could be the least safe option. A zoom climb to stabilize at the best angle of climb speed will get you away from the ground with the least risk of hitting something solid. How well would a right 180* turn have gone in the video above? Just my opinion.

Torque Tonight has it almost right IMO.

How would a right 180 have worked for these guys other than driving straight into high ground?

Full power climb and corkscrew up keeping the turn tight and not standard.
On reaching SSA change to IFR keep a little extra speed for the tighter turn.

If not IFR capable dont enter cloud. Turn visual, accept the altitude to keep out of cloud and do a 180 back from whence you came. But I stress keeping visual which means NOT in cloud.

Pace

Why corkscrew up - if you have been flying up a valley, presumably the valley goes straight on and turning either way might put you into the side, plus, even if you are current in flying IMC a corkscrew manouver can be very dissorientating - if you are flying there then you [I]should[I] have an idea where the valley goes after you become IMC, so climb doing your best to follow the center of the valley.:rolleyes:

Statistically you can hit a hill in any direction - except right behind you :)

This is why a tight 180 is statistically the best option - if you know nothing certain about the topography.

If OTOH you are sure that you are only just above the terrain, a zoom climb from cruise might gain you 1000ft and take you to a safe level.

However, psychology comes into this heavily. It is easy to just press on and end up with no options. Nobody willingly flies into a hill, yet many do.

Foxmouth

We are talking about being in cloud inadvertanly or whatever so you wouldnt see up your valley!

You are already in a high risk situation low level in IMC surrounded by high terrain.

The best way out IMO is to try and remain in as near as one spot until you have climbed above the MSA.
i presume if your in cloud that you are IFR and IMC capable? If you cannot handle a turning climb without being disorientated then maybe you shouldnt be there or need to go back for further training.

Valleys have a habit of branching off or coming to a dead end so dont presume a climb ahead is safe.

If you can see up your valley remain that way and if forced down too low do your 180 back to where you know there are better conditions.

Pace

I would think if you are IMC capable you should not be messing about trying to stay VMC below! Also I would think anyone with any sense (not that these people showed much in this case) would know both what the valley was like ahead of them and how wide it is, knowing this would help decide if a 180 or climb straight ahead was the best option, even in VMC I would not be flying like this without knowing my escape options.

Wow! Some pretty dangerous advice there Maoraigh!
 

I think maybe you should modify or withdraw your posts! Someone who finds themself in the situation you describe MAY be lucky and MAY get away with it but pilots should never play Russian Roulette...should they? I'm with 172 driver 100% on this. Cheers anyway bm

ps The (otherwise) brilliant Neil Williams found himself in a valley flying a Heinkel 1-11 ... the mountains got higher as the valley narrowed - until he had neither the performance to climb-out nor the width to turn. He persihed of course.

Maoraigh1,
One of our instructors discovered power lines across the valley doing that. He was lucky to survive and even managed to fly the damaged aircraft back to base!
DO.

Thoughts?
 

To clarify: If I can't see ahead, or do a 180, I said I will put the plane down. I will not fly at the height at which powerlines pylons are, and note where they cross a valley or water at greater height.
The most dangerous advice is to climb, in cloud, in hilly country. To suggest a spiral climb in cloud is to suggest suicide.

That may well be the only thing you're somewhat right about. Other than that ALL your ideas are tantamount to suicide, albeit in a somewhat more direct (and dare I say, less elegant) fashion. Awaiting the AAIB report on your activities :ugh:

I suspect Maoraigh1 may be suggesting a precautionary landing whilst in VMC rather than a 3* descent through cloud onto (into) the side of a hill.

A precautionary landing (what a lovely euphemism) is what is taught (as a theory) in the PPL, and while it is going to be the safest option in the "totally stuffed by weather all around" scenario, it goes so severely against pilot psychology that very few people actually do it. Very few owners will do it because of the 4-digit cost of carting the plane out on a trailer, and that assumes a perfect landing. It may also be highly dangerous, depending on the terrain.

Far better to plan the flight at/above the MSA, and keep an escape route open at all times.

Flights that are actually executed at/above the MSA, with a turnback if unable to maintain VMC, are extremely unlikely to result in a total loss of escape options. It is the people who fly below the MSA, say 500ft above the ground, who get squeezed between the terrain and the clouds.

Yet, flying below the MSA is routine practice among VFR pilots, most of whom never do an altitude plan. The MSA business was the one good thing I was taught in the PPL and it never occured to me to do anything else when enroute. I'd rather fly in IMC.... ;)

...but if you've read all the doomy articles that say that if you fly out-of-practice into IMC the wings will fall off (I think I read somewhere that the average pre-spiral-dive/wing departure/survival time for unprepared/unpracticed/unexpected IMC was about 75 seconds) then a precautionary landing onto that nice smooth-looking (though in all likelihood boggy and rock-strewn) valley floor must appear to be an attractive proposition.
I'm not a huge fan of the 180* turn unless you're certain that you're clear of terrain and if the guys in the vid had tried a right 'U' turn I suspect they'd have had a lot worse than a wrecked gorse bush.
Frankly, I'd have thought that when the deck met the sky for them the only way was up. Get above the MSA ASAP and then sort it out - but then a) I'm in a comfy chair at the moment, b) I'm not getting hammered by downdraught rolling off the hilltops and (perhaps most importantly) c) it's a piece of cake to keep out of aeronautical trouble when you're not in an airplane/aeroplane.

So far I'd say IO540's modus operandi least likely to get you and pax killed.
 

The tight spiral climb in IMC gives me the willies. Next to one of the ridges will likely be severe downdraft -- or the wind will blow you across the valley into something. We're talking mountain flying here. By the way, do you know where any cables are?

Best deal of all is in a helicopter moving slowly. I've had the privilege of observing an expert from the left seat working around scud in mountainous valleys. 70 kt. was as fast as he flew that day and he had a few miles viz. How fast was the Bonanza driver flying?

Well, for all you know the poster may have that skill and knowledge. I agree it isn't for everyone or indeed every type of aircraft. You did note the mention of space above and below?

Makes perfect sense to me!

Could have something to do with "hilly" vs "mountaneous"; when MSA is well above 10000 ft, or when MSA (in the IFR sense) is 5000, cloud base is 4500 and valley floors are 2000, going through valleys is of course the way to do it. Obviously you need to know what you're doing.

Trying to squeeze through the 200 ft gap between the stratus clouds and the South Downs is something else entirely; maybe that is what some of the outraged posters here have in mind.

"You can't fly in mountains because you have neither an IR nor oxygen" is not a helpful answer IMHO. Of course, I would love to have those things! :)

Only if it is windy.

I had a look around an aeroplane that made a "precautionary" landing. The engine was losing oil, but running perfectly fine so the pilot elected to land in a field that was too short. It trashed the aeroplane and nearly killed the pilot who spent weeks in hospital. Looking at the remains it is a wonder that they weren't killed, even the panel was concave.

I'd put the GPS into the TAWS page, and climb, keeping the red bits out of my route of flight.....Actually long before this situation I'd have climbed to a safe level and continued IFR ;)

And that's what worries me.

One by one:

- seeing ahead: fine if you fly through a gap in mountains or a very short valley, where you can actually see the other side - and, importantly, know there is not another valley hiding there!

- do a 180: fine, IF valley is wide enough and IF the wx hasn't closed in behind you. Doesn't seem to work too well in practice, though, as by the time most pilots realize they are up the creek - they literally are, and there's not enough space left.

- put the plane down: laughable. This whole idea of 'precautionary landing' only works if you have options. Examples: having a line of CBs across your path and not enough room to divert. Find a little airfield, land, wait. Approaching mountains, find the wx cr*p, cannot outclimb - turn around and land somewhere. 'Putting the plane down' in a mountain valley in a distress situation ? Funnily, these valleys don't tend to have airfields (or any fields, for that matter). Think rocks and bog and trees.

- not fly at pylon height: great idea in flat country. Not such a great idea in mountains, where power cables, and cablecars span valleys at any height. The VFR charts of Alpine countries have the bigger ones - but there are loads of smaller installations that will get you just as well.

I am not saying you cannot fly through valleys. Of course you can and in some situations it is the only way to get to the other side. However, you need to understand what you're attempting to do, have a thorough preflight briefing and make notes of possible 180-turning points along your way.

However, the safe bet is ALWAYS to stay on top of the mountains, above MSA. In aviation, height (above ground) is your friend !

It's interesting what people will do when they find themselves in extremis. A local guy in a 172 with 3 pax found himself inadvertently in IMC, lost control, popped out of the cloud base, regained control and found himself in a valley hemmed in on all sides by cloud. He would have flown around in the valley until fuel exhaustion, the weather being so bad with no escape route. The only avenue open to him he thought was to make a controlled "landing" into the canopy of the 150 foot forest and hope for the best. "Landing" completed the aircraft fell to the forest floor and all escaped with nothing more than scratches. They were subsequently winched out by one of our helos.

I think all that really comes out of a very well worn discussion is that flying in mountains is a specialist skill. It can be done, and it can be done safely, in just the same way you can scud run entirely safely. The danger is in suggesting it is for everyone - and anyone. It requires experience, skill and training.

As to getting caught below the base with no where to go.

My view is this. If you have done some instrument flying and feel capable of executing a climb to MSA then it is an option worth considering. You need to understand that you might not be able to climb into VMC and you also need to understand that as soon as you are above the MSA you need help. Get on the radio and ask for it.

If you have never done any instrument flying at all then really your own option is to land. It might not be pretty. However if you enter cloud more than likely the outcome will be worse. I am afraid it comes down to the lesser of two evils.

Somebody I know of did this too, and was much less fortunate. Landing on top of trees is highly dodgy.

A genuine free fall through 150ft will totally wreck the airframe and everybody inside, so I think the reality was a bit different on this one.

This is the worst-case scenario; a pilot with zero IMC skills. This is why I think nobody should go flying anywhere unless they can fly (simply) in IMC.