Air Accident Posts
 

BRL (who is a moderator) recently had a go at me for posting accident info here he claimed was not in the public domain.

In the two recent cases I posted (A) Great Oakley Fatality because I fly from nearby and (B) because I owned a Piper PA32 for a number of years which I flew from Detroit to Perth in West Australia.(The subject aircraft G-LUNA ditched off Dungeness)

BRL accused me of being someone who wanted to rubberneck and post for the sake of it.

May I remind you all that daily accident info is available here:
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > Year index > 2009

As someone who has lost a number of friends in fatal aircraft incidents over the years I find BRL's juvenile attitude to aircraft accident reports offensive.

Maybe we can have feedback here to assess the feeling to posting info on accidents?

On a personal note I am happy for any accident I am involved in to be posted and discussed here:ok:

Far from complete. A write-off that I know about, and has been reported in CAA data, and appeared in the Safety pages of UK Pilot magazine is not there so the existence of that database is not a justification to post anything at any time.

There is a balance to be struck between early information that might help others and inadvertently making life more difficult for those involved or closely associated with those involved. I think that in the first 24 or so hours after a serious incident / accident that comment should be minimal so that relatives hear from the authorities what has happened - not journalists.

Well, I am on BRL's side here. The more you protest the more you come over as a complete pratt but then I have never liked journalists who whine.

It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.

Sorry..did not know BRL owned the site.

In that case can you ask him to lay off the commercial accident info on rumour and news:ok:

BRL was a bit quick in my opinion.
As pilots we are always interested in flight accidents, quick news and identification of the aircraft is not a bad thing.
Pilots do the majority of their training in order to avoid accidents, it's a relatively small community and we seek information on events that may well happen to us some day as well as people we may know.
Where but on here can you get a discussion about events as they happen and it must be very unlikely that the next of kin come and have a look on PPrune.
Have a look at the large number of reads these threads have, if we weren't concerned we wouldn't be reading it ye?

I'm all for discussing the circumstances around accidents. It helps us learn and be better pilots.

I would rather learn from someone else's mistakes, or hypothetical circumstances that come from such accident discussions, than from my own mistakes.

However being first to publish the names and addresses of the persons involved is bad taste in my opinion. That information add's nothing to the dicussion. For those of us who are distant aquantances or simply want to know out of curiousity, this information will come in time.

I think BRL was perfectly correct to call you up on it. I think (and I'm sure he'd agree with hindsight) that it would have been better done in private, rather than in public. But even on that point I don't have much sympathy for you, as you too have chosen to have this argument in public rather than in private.

BRL is an excellent moderator. He has moderated private flying now for a long time, with a very light touch. It's rare that he pulls anything, and his calls are almost alright right. In this case, I think he's spot on, but should have done it in private.

He has my full support in this case. But don't let it get to you. We have all had something pulled, or found ourselves on the wrong side of moderation in the past. Don't make it into a big deal. Life is to short to get upset about this things. Let it go and be happy ;)

dp

Have there ever been any guidelines published for PPRuNe on what is and is not allowed to be posted in relation to accidents?

Why must it be? I'm sure there would be quite a few spouses, parents and siblings who would know if their aviating relative read Pprune.

Cheers

Whirls

I seem to remember at least two separate threads in the last six months or so, on two separate accidents, where someone representing the next of kin registered on PPRuNe specifically to take part in the discussion. That was partly to express their distaste about certain postings, and partly to obtain some background information about the more technical aspects of the accident.

Actually it was hinted that the next of kin later got in touch with some of the more experienced pilots on here and discussed some aspects of the accident in great depth, in private.

Furthermore, threads on here are also read and indexed by the Google bots (and other search engines). If a name of an accident victim or the aircraft registration appears on here then you can be sure that it is one of the first ten hits in a Google search within two or three days. And that means that you can be pretty sure that the next of kin will be around to see what's been posted within, oh, a week or so?

So, in contrast, I find it very likely that the next of kin will eventually read what I write in an accident thread, and I personally try to write my responses (if any) so that the next of kin are not offended, and with respect for the deceased.

for sake of clarity here, if I stuff my arrow into the ground tomorrow, everyone is welcome to speculate on what I did or didn't do to their hearts content - this is a 'rumour network' after all - but with the caveat that their reasons for posting are educational, rather than concerned only with self-agrandisement.

I think the unseemly rush to be the 1st to name the pilot concerned, is unhelpful, morbid and distasteful.

I agree whole heartedly with Mr Empson and would like to add that the same applies to me in my Arrow..........

Cusco.

Same here.Though I don't think Naming should be encouraged.

But regarding "offending" the NOK - Unfortunately the NOK may not like what they read, but it may be the truth. There are people on here who bleat like crazy - one specifically springs to mind, the PA28 crash not so long ago in IMC. One poster in particular was very offended when people suggested that the flight might have been an accidental flight into IMC and it wasn't the pilots fault.

I reckon that we should revist these posts when the AAIB reports come out and compare and contrast to see what conclusion that they came to - I suspect it'll be very similar to the conclusion we came to.

The recent DA42 at Lands End was a prime example - we all speculated that the DA42 would not have been able to take off again and guess what....we were right. So who would like to start resurecting these posts?

PS: BRL has always seemed fair to me...

And you can speculate on any of my crashes as well!

Quite why people should always be treated with kid gloves escapes me. For flying the vast majority of accidents are actually the pilots responsiblity. Even when there is a mechanical failure, the severity of the accident still comes back to the pilots 'handling' of the event. That is an inescapable fact. If people cannot accept that then they should n't do it - be it, flying or readings these postings.

In wider society the self censorship that goes on to avoid upsetting some small group of interested people is a great way to ensure a 'beige' society where nothing happens, nothing is discussed and nothing much works.

Nothing wrong in being first,- if that's your bag, but naming names is ,IMO, bad -mannered and discourteous to the victims....that should be the perogative of the Authorities,to release details after NOK have been informed.

IN the case of the OP's post that invoked BRL's ire, the bare facts would have sufficed,- as it was, the name of the registered owner was posted with theimplication that, rightly or wrongly, that was the PIC. the line was crossed.

I'm no shrinking violet and would expect an unseemly scrum of friends to queue up to "bag" any of my possessions they coveted....but others would get upset and should be given due regard.

The whole point and why it is so important that we can discuss accidents is that such discussions "may" deter another pilot from making a simular mistake.

Whether we happen to hit on the real cause is IMO irrelevant it is getting pilots to think around the accident and what could have caused it that is so crucial.

To discuss a whole host of possible causes also brings out other ways in how such an accident could occur and other accident scenarios we can avoid.
That MAY include the actual cause of the accident in the conclusion arrived at in the discussions.

Accidents shock us for our vulnerability is always tucked away in the back of our minds and surfaces when these tragedies occur.

We are then more open to taking in lessons rather than a year later when the AAIB report comes out and the shock factor has gone.

As long as postings are opinions and guesses rather than put over as a matter of fact I really dont care whether relatives pop in here or not. Its a pilot forum for pilots not deceased loved ones relatives. "dont look for fear of what you might find" springs to mind.

Posting a pilots name or aircraft reg is in bad taste because it doesnt add anything to the purpose of accident discussions. Pilot X in aircraft XYZ is enough. The aircraft type is important but not the reg and certainly not the name of the poor soul.

Pace

You can speculate on my crash too.

But naming the victim(s) early in the process is not right, and serves no educational purpose.

Completely agreed. I don't know just whose train set it is, but I know for certain that I am a guest, not an entitled user. Thus I will post by the rules, or graciously step back.

I generally see no need to identify persons, aircraft or specific locations prior to the final report doing so, and even at that point, getting personal does not improve the value of the content for learning purposes.

I have previously posted that I feel more comfortable, particularly in fatal crashes, discussing the report of the accident, rather than the accident itself. That way people who are close to the event have time to deal with things. I can be patient. Only in cases where some major defect in a fleet is suddenly exposed by a crash, do we really need to know right away. In those cases, we'll have safety action from the relevent authority to discuss, rather than the crash itself.

I find myself sometimes having to re-read the name of this website, just to remind myself why I chose this one (and only this one) to spend my effort. We are trying to present to each other as Professionals, right?

Pilot DAR

My dad and my uncle both also fly and I know at least one of them reads PPRUNE. I'm sure they wouldn't want to hear anything about me from this place. I should imagine mine isn't the only family with more than one aviator in it.

So to quote some of the posters - curious relatives might be upset to read speculation over the cause of an accident or the abilities of the pilot or just the syntax of the posting - and so we should not speculate or comment on accidents?

Oh pleeaassee!

If they are that sensitive then perhaps not reading might be a sensible approach. This forum particularly can be pretty critical - remember the 'drunken Oban accident' which might or might not have been?

Pretty robust but no one felt that relatives sensibilities should stop it. I very much agree with that approach, we spend far too much time worrying about other people's feelings.

I do share the unease about early naming - if only because it can sometimes be very difficult to contact relatives - but beyond that - open season.

You know something. I was talking to somebody today actually about the attitude of the mods on here. Saying things like

Well, I am on BRL's side here. The more you protest the more you come over as a complete pratt but then I have never liked journalists who whine.

It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.

just confirms what i already knew. I think the moderators/owner needs to get a reality check. This is a public forum, that lots of different people frequent and the "you need us more than we need you" attitude absolutely stinks. :mad:

I personally know of a forum that was very busy and moderation just for the sake of it killed it. Its no longer around now.

I know someone who is actually writing a forum as we speak to do with aviation and i personally cant wait.

Ive seen how some moderators on here speak to people and it just goes to show what muppets they really are. Ive also seen it how they try and muzzle peoples opinions if it differes from there. I urge people to go to another forum, one that has some manners!! :D

It would help if the moderators were actual pilots or pilot enthusiasts as i cant imagine any are with their poor attitude. :=


Anyway im off now as i cant stand this clicky, stupid mentaility any longer.

Someones been reading the 'Pilot' forum then!

Okay, bye then.

Ahh.... No.... Were it to be "public", a private individual could not affect posts. Apparently (thankfully) private individuals can!

Now? or Frequently?

Is it not spelt Clique ? :}

Got a PM off someone on my return home just now. Here it is....

The next PM from another poster was a reply to something different and ended with this,

Overall I think we do a good job here. I can take the stick that I get now and again, part of the job isn't it. When I do "Silence People" as quoted above I get jumped on from everyone who doesn't agree on here. This has happened a few times in the past and so the forum is more or less managed better by means of this, learning curve and all that. If you lot don't agree with a descision I/we make you certainly don't hold back when letting me know!!

Anyhow, I am tired now, it's been a long day and coming home to be called a Tosser deserves a ban I think........ :}

Yup, you've got my whole hearted vote!

Has it ever been considered to have a Forum specifically for discussion of accidents and incidents? Perhaps with sub-Forums for Condolences, Fixed wing vs Rotor, ....... whatever??

Accident related threads seem to pop up in all sorts of Forums and it would be more user friendly if they were all in one "box".

I'm sure in discussing there matters our main focus is to try to learn from others mistakes and to keep ourselves informaed. This would be a whole lot easier if it was all in one place.

Probably been asked and answered before ???

Di :confused:

The idea of a separate place to post accidents has merit. It could have its own set of "guidelines" for posters, which would tend to equallize the content of posts. If posts or threads popped up elsewhere, they could be moved in to the new place if they qualified, or moved into PPRuNe's black hole if they do not!

We already have that, R&N for accident reports and JB as the black hole, or should be rather than deleted, GA accidents can still be reported on Pivate Flying, a separate forum for accidents would make R&N virtually redundant.

Had a quick look at a number of accident related threads.

Sure there are heaps on Rumours & News - about half of the current threads on Rumours & News are accident related.

But I also see in a sample of 30 accident related threads I looks at:

20 were in DG&P - General Aviation & Questions
5 were in Rotorheads
2 were in DG&P Reporting Points
2 were in Private Flying

Also, there were quite a few threads duplicated that had to be merged because they were started in different forums (another good reason for having one place for all of these)

Perhaps the MODERATOR could advise if this can be given some thought? (If this had not been already given thought in the past)

Thanks,

Di :ok:

Edited to add: I wonder how many threads are scattered around that should be in R&N also........

Got a PM off someone on my return home just now. Here it is....

Quote:
tosser
I think you and your train set should get a grip. You try and silence people all the time and it drives people away. I know someone hwo is writing a forum as we speak to rival this one and i cant wait!


Is it just me but isnt posting a private message on the forum a bit sad?

:ugh:Isn't sending someone a PM like that very sad:ugh:

Anybody can set up and host another PHP-BB forum; that's the easy bit. It's been done a few times; almost nobody will go there.

Accident discussion should not be suppressed because that is how one learns. The AAIB reports come out a year later when almost everybody had forgotten about it, and by the time the text has been agreed between the various parties concerned, the report is likely to be pretty bland.

For example I can recall one fatal accident in which IMHO a major factor was really negligent engine maintenance, but the report did not blame the maintenance company at all. This helps nobody. Such companies should be named and shamed - probably by PM to avoid getting sued.

Really silly to say almost nobody will go there. You could have said that about this forum started?

A succesful forum is based on good admins, good mods, good atmosphere and good place to talk.

This used to be like that. Now the mods think its too big to get hurt so talk to people like !!!!.

Silly

Not my experience. The few occasions where I have interacted with the mods they've always been polite. Months goes by when I don't notice their presence. And the few occasions where I do notice mods modifying or deleting posts in a thread, I almost always concur with what happened.

The mods are volunteers though. And human too. If you talk trash to them, you can be pretty sure to be replied in kind. Or get banned altogether.

Beıng an admınıstrator of a forum wıth only a few hundred members I fully apprecıate what the mods have to go through... I have just deleted a small portıon of a thread to prevent ıt gettıng ugly and boy am ı sufferıng !!!!

Crashes are emotıve topıcs, especıally when a fatality is ınvolved. One of the recent accıdents had a frıend of mıne kılled, ı hated the speculatıon regardıng ıt, then agaın when ıt ıs an accıdent that ıs removed from me my morbıd senses go looking for ınformatıon.

It ıs a dıffıcult tıght rope for the moderators to walk, gıve them a bıt of slack lads, they do a resonabely balanced and good job of thıs sıte and they have earned my respect.... then ı am talkıng when wearıng a moderators hat too !!

Jon

Jonkil,

Its the attitude that starts arguments. The "you need us more than we will ever need you" stinks. You must see that.

Also i have had posts of mine deleted for just disagreeing with a mod. Thats not fair in any way shape or form.

I have been a mod of a busy forum for the last 9 years and can honestly say i have had to delet posts but always pmd the person and explained why and never had a bad attitude towards them.

Thats the difference.

Having had the odd (some very odd:} ) posts deleted, I just carry on.
No offence taken if my literary efforts are not up to par.

Agreed, there is a mutual dependancy, management V "audience".....apart from the advertisers, this Forum can be loosely classed as "entertainment" As such, it's not life or death,- like the Telly, -don't like what's on?- go elsewhere.

I dont think "shunts/prangs " or "bleeding hearts" would quite make the Fluffist grade as sub-fora,-perhaps that's why I am not part of the management :}

The Forum appears to attract a broad spectrum of personalities,all with a common interest in Aviation. The fact that the title suggests

"Exclusive Pilots' Club", is disproved as the various categories of sub-fora are perused.

Debate is usually intelligent and decorous....the Mods appear to maintain that (though some spats are quite entertaining)

Those wishing to exit , will note the door was open when they arrived.....it's still open for your departure.

bye!

My comment about nobody going there was based on a number of forums which I have seen pop up and after months nearly the only posts were from the bloke who started it, trying to get some discussion going.

I could start a pilot forum tomorrow but who would go there? And being a mod is a tricky job, with some of the abusive characters around.

On the UK GA scene you have flyer and pprune, and there is the little ukga one whose members are mostly from Cardiff and Sherburn :) Then there is pplir.org which is very good but also small. I think that's about it, for mainstream GA. There is the AOPA forum (almost nobody on it), the LAA forum (slightly more busy) and doubtless more specialised ones for e.g. gliding which is a big enough scene.

The mods here (private flying) are IMHO very good. I once got banned for posting some naughty URL as a joke but that was done by the sysadmin (some nameless person somewhere behind the scenes). The mods elsewhere on pprune are pretty aggressive though.

I have to say that I agree with that whole heartedly. Months can go by when I too don't notice moderation taking place.

When people talk about the moderators "on this site" they should be careful not to generalise. BRL is our main moderator, and I think have a very good balance on the forum. I don't frequent the other forums here, and moderation there may be different. But there is no need to tar all moderators with the same brush. BRL's moderation is light in the extreme, which is a good thing.

dp