I was taught when joining from the dead side, descend to circuit height on approach and cross the upwind numbers having requested a dead side join. This not a cross wind join as cross wind is about a mile to your right in a standard circuit or a mile to your left in RH circuit. From over the numbers at circuit height it is easier to see other circuit traffic. I was also taught that cross wind joins are not recommended as it is difficult to spot where traffic climbing to circuit height might be.

I quite enjoy overhead joins, there is probably more handling in an overhead join than the rest of the flight. I find its easier to spot traffic at a similar altitude to me and I have a reasonable idea where everyone is from their RT calls. I have more problems with other pilots calling for a straight in approach to a busy circuit and calling final when they should be calling field in sight! This happened to me on Sunday the poor old atco hadn't got a clue who was who and where they were or should be. At least with overhead joins we are all sing from the same hymn sheet.

Chris

Oh god know, please everyone don't hang around orbiting in the overhead at 2000', especially on a busy Sunday... Or if you do, then I'll join on base and be sipping tea by the time you all land, if you survive.

NEVER join on a crosswind, it is a recipie for disaster. Cross the upwind numbers by all means, but no further out.

Deadside - as mentioned above, do half an OHJ, descend to circuit height on way in, wizz over upwind numbers, downwind, base, final, land.

My prefered join is on a Base leg....

It's exactly what you are expected to do if told "join cross wind" in some places"

Well yes they potentially are when you see the way certain pilots fly them!

Oh and by the way, it's a good idea to keep a good lookout whichever way you join!

Seriously though I think one essential point is to make sure you are in LEVEL flight (ie at circuit height) BEFORE you enter the LIVE side of the circuit. Also when you descend on the dead side do NOT descend in straight flight (ie parallel to the landing runway) - descents are safer when turning as you are continuously clearing the airspace in which you are intending to descend.

Fly Safe!

"Wrong call, wrong place. You could call Crosswind but it is not necessary so the next call is Downwind obviously when you are Downwind"

But dont you think that over the upwind number is where you're most likely to conflict with someone.... another plane on crosswind or just turned onto downwind. When you're downwind yourself there's a lower chance of a potential conflict , IMHO.

We have debated the OHJ on this forum so many times. OHJ makes sense if intending to land at some remote non-radio strip, where you need to assess the runway, wind, etc.
But most airfields in UK have radio, and we don't need to fly over a signal square to get our landing info. In my opinion a join at circuit height on the extended downwind [or on base leg] is a lot safer than the OHJ.

Ok so what do the statistics tell us?

How many airprox/collisions have occured doing an OHJ as opposed to a direct join base leg/downwind etc.?

I think there is some cross purpose brick wall banging here.
The original question was I believe "where does the overhead join start?"
My reading of it at an uncontrolled A/G field is:- approach from whatever direction at 2000ft (top of the ATZ) having already called whilst outside the zone "Will join overhead from Aunty Mary's place". As you pass overhead the upwind numbers at 2000ft call, G-AB overhead". You have now joined & are now in the "system/circuit" Otherwise there is no such thing as an "OVERhead JOIN" It can only be a "crosswind" or "downwind" or "base leg" Join.
Turn through sufficient degrees in the previously noted circuit direction until you are facing the dead side but still on the live side, cross the active runway numbers at 2000ft & call "decending dead side".
Decend & proceed through 180 degrees to circuit height & then as you cross the upwind numbers at circuit height call "crosswind".
Continue to the downwind turn & abeam the upwind numbers turn & call "Downwind">>>>>
Now, Will that do?

Hmmn... by the time you arrive on final [assuming no close encounters!] you will have turned through some 630 degrees. Hope the pax don't get dizzy. :ooh:

Circuit Direction.
 

It is important as you approach the airfield to be in the correct position in relation to the circuit direction.
Within three or four miles of the airport.
Left hand circuit, keep the field on your left and continue turning left overhead until you cross the threshold of the landing runway.
You are now on the dead side and descend as discussed
Right hand, keep the field on your right.
This is simple and prevents aircraft turning in the incorrect direction overhead.
On too many occasions I have encountered aircraft turning in the wrong direction whilst they attempt so join overhead.
Keep it simple. Kiss

V-tail:You've hit the nail on the head of where the OHJ falls down. It's where people think they know better and muscle in on the circuit in the way that suits them, while others try to stick by the book and fly an OHJ. I'm heartily fed up of thoughtless and selfish PPLs barrelling into the circuit on base or downwind or god save us "long final" while I've got a student on a circuit detail. You're right most airfields have radio. So when they add at the end of the airfield info "the circuit is active", please spare a thought for those of us who are already in the circuit.

And I don't agree with you about OHJ only being of use at remote non-radio strips. In my view OHJs are pointless there because they won't have a signals square, might not have a windsock, and almost certainly won't have other traffic. OHJs are the best way of ordering joining traffic; their original purpose of enabling you to read the signals square is now redundant.

NS

Really!

So you have 4 aeroplanes, joining a runway 27 left hand, from N, S, E and W, all aiming for the same spot in the sky to do lots of turning and manouvring and altitude changes....Where as the one from the S could join on Base, the one from N from deadside onto Downwind, the one from W could joing direct downwind, and the one from E could make a straight in. Seems pretty sensible to me....

As long as everyone fits in with the others. If I were downwind and one joined straight in, I'd extend DW slightly to come in behind them...or if they were LONG final, I'd cut in and be on the ground before them. If I were joining on base, and someone was already on DW, I'd alter course slightly to come in behind them...likewise if I were joining cross wind from the deadside, and someone was doing circuits and was turning DW...I'd come in behind them if there was any doubt.

Easy really....

Everytime OHJs are discussed it gets heated. So I am not trying to wind anyone up here. However experiencing two near midairs while correctly carrying out OHJs tends to harden ones opinion. OHJs involve a 'cross wind join' which in my opinion is suicidal at a busy airfield with a mix of low and high performance aircraft. Still at least the wreckage will be confined to the airfield in the vicinity of the upwind numbers. :rolleyes:

Apart from the obvious one - you - were there any common factors between the two incidents?

Speed Control
 

Why do people have to fly at 140kts down wind in a busy circuit.
:ugh:

VT1:I don't disagree with that - joining procedures should be appropriate to the airfield and its traffic. At an airfield with a long runway and regular high performance traffic, there is a danger of conflicts between aircraft joining crosswind and an HP a/c taking off or going around. So it might well be appropriate to have a different procedure to deal with that. I have to say though that if you're the pilot of a high performance aircraft you will be well aware that your rapid climb might put you into conflict with crosswind joiners so you would surely make special efforts to (a) listen out to get a picture of any joining traffic, (b) look out before rolling and during initial climb to identify any such traffic and then (c) if you know or believe there is conflicting traffic, reduce your climb rate or stop your climb so that you're not co-altitude with the joiner as you pass the upwind end of the runway.

But my frustration is at airfields where there is a published OHJ procedure that is appropriate and works, but some people think it's acceptable to ignore it. It's particularly bad airmanship when qualified pilots do this at airfields where there is regular circuit training and students are following the correct procedures.

All I'm asking is for people to project their thoughts a little further than moi moi in the cockpit getting down by the most rapid method when joining a circuit.

NS

North South, excellent post. Climbing out of Wellesborne in a PA18, which climbs rather well compared to spam cans, remembered only just in time to curb the climb rate and avoid a cessna joining overhead. So high powered aircraft like Super Cubs need to adapt to these strange customs of OHJs.

Do they do OHJ in the USA? I don't remember.

The OHJ (and also using QFE and other Q-related nonsense) are I believe unique to the UK. I will leave you all to decide who is right - the UK, or the rest of the world.

I was sat in the caff at EGBJ the other day and noticed a minor disagreement due to non-standard joins. Aircraft from North told to do an OHJ which necessitated it positioning to the South for deadside; aircraft from South given a left base join. Everything appeared OK until the OHJ aircraft had done the full procedure and was then told to continue downwind until advised as there was one joining ahead on a left base (cct direction is RH for RW27). OHJ Man got a bit flustered (how far downwind, can't see other traffic, overflying Cheltenham at 1000ft) and elected to go around. A few sharp words from OHJ Man and deathly silence on the radio.

It seemed to me that the OHJ aircraft followed the published procedure and was penalised because the other chap and ATC were trying to be clever. If I was OHJ Man, I would have said what's 'good for the goose is good for the gander' .............:cool:

Good point Thud 105. That's exactly what I have been asking myself while reading this thread. Aviation is supposed to be a global thing. Imagine every country in Europe (or the world for that matter) had their own way of joining a circuit (or traffic pattern as they call it in the US). Most of us not trained in the UK (or mabe SA, NZ or downunder)have never heard of overhead joins, dead sides and live sides etc. And I also agree with previously voiced opinions regarding the dangers of high performance aircraft departing an airfield while others performe overhead joins. I have been in such situiations departing in a biz jet. Not ideal. And to Robin400: We just can't go much slower than 140 in our jet even with everything hanging out. So that's why.