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What to do if your lost?
What to do if your lost?
I have only recently gained my PPL license and like to have figure out what I would do in different situations. I am trying to put together the best procedure if i were to get lost. I would really appreciate your suggestions and experiences. Nick |
There are two options:
1) If you know you're not near any Controlled airspace, take your last known position on the chart, draw a circle around it the radius of which is the distance you know you will have flown since that point (so - if it's 5 minutes at 120Kts then that's a 10nm radius). then work out where you are inside that circle by reference to ground features 2) If you suspect you're near CAS, or (1) above doesn't work, dial up 121.5, squawk 7700 and shout for help (PAN call). There is no shame in doing so, you'll get all the help you'll need, and it'll stop you having a nasty with something bigger and faster. |
Sir,
0. Admit to yourself that you are lost, instead of trying to convince yourself you know where you are. 1. Do not continue any further. 2. Check heading and the time travelled from the last known waypoint. 3. If able, return to a place that you recognise and are able indentify without a doubt. (This should be fairly easy if you have OFP and you know how long you've come with a known heading) 4. If 3 doesn't work, use radio to get assistance from ATC and use nav aids to plot yourself onto the map again. Happy landings sires, Olabade |
I look at one of my 7 GPS devices in my plane and failing that I would use ye olde nav devices like my adf (have to de-tune radio five live first) or perhaps a VOR.
Personally I dont think you can beat the situational awareness that a GPS gives you. I always like ome of the ones that display you as a flashing blob on a CAA chart (such as memory map) which you can have on your phone, a pocket pc or in my case a small tablet pc with a touch screen. I am aware that there will be others who will rattle on about not using GPS for navigation etc but frankly that is rubbish IMO. If you use GPS together with your maps and looking out of the window to make sure what you see on your map and gps is the same you wont go far wrong. |
Nickyboy,
Now you have your ppl you may like to think about getting a GPS then you won't ever get lost. Even if it packs up on you will have a good fix at the point it went TU. Even a walking one will give you enough position awareness to find yourself on the chart and they cost less that one hours aircraft rental. Steve [Oops: sorry Stuart, stepped on you] |
Apart from what others have said here is not to panic, make large deviations or identify features as being what you want to see rather than what is there.
Double check towns and villages by checking for railway lines, rivers, shapes etc. check for features such as hills, lakes, coastlines. Chances are you will be talking to someone if not make sure you are. If it is a military radar unit perfect, just tell them of your problem and they will no doubt help. Even avoid a problem by telling them that you are a new PPL routing from A to B and can they keep an eye on you. Even as an experienced pilot ATC are there for you to work. Often under a radar service I will ask to be stepclimbed to a cruise level with airspace letting them sort out the controlled airspace or while flying IMC will ask for stears away from certain areas or aircraft. So dont be shy of asking for help in the early days. It is reassuring to know someone is keeping half an eye on you until you have the confidence yourself. Pace |
Originally Posted by Pace
If it is a military radar unit perfect, just tell them of your problem and they will no doubt help.
Doesn't matter whether it's military or civil - you'll get the same help. |
dial up 121.5, squawk 7700 and shout for help (PAN call) You need to realize that as soon as you squawk 7700, all ATC units that have you on radar, including those that you're not talking to, will start watching you and start clearing the airspace around you, particularly below you. Maybe some rescue units near you will get a heads-up call for a possible emergency landing. After all, from your squawk alone they can't figure out that you only need a position fix from D&D, and are talking to D&D to achieve that. So they'll fear the worst and act accordingly. |
Do Not Sqwauk 7700.....
....are you in immediate, life threatening danger? No? Didn't think so.
The one thing that nobody has mentioned here, and it's sooo easy is the traditional VDF call. If you look at your VFR chart here in the U.K. you will note that certain aerodromes have the initials VDF next to them. Tune in and ask for either bearings or steers (magnetic or true - up to you) They will usually give you a bearing from the station - which you can then cross cut with a station you think is at 90 degrees. You can find which stations will work for you as you plot your route. The full description of the process is detailed in CAP413. No gadgets required. As SoCalApp has said, I am extremely surprised that your instructor has not covered this with you at some length, and you should have been tested on this by your examiner. |
Originally Posted by backpacker
I somehow think that D&D would appreciate an "unsure of position, request fix" more than a full-blown emergency squawk with a PAN call and everything
If you're near CAS, or you suspect may have infringed, then it's a PAN on 121.5 and a 7700 squawk because: 1) The unit responsible for the CAS can avoid you like the plague if inside, or plan ahead in case you're likely to infringe (we can see which way you're tracking) 2) D&D can speak to you whereever you are in the country, and the flashing emergency squawk will pinpoint you faster on their (and other) screens. The calls you make to D&D are either real (PAN or MAYDAY) or practice (Practice PAN or "Training Fix"). If you're lost you won't be doing one of the latter - go back and read my original post, those options are still valid if you're not talking to an ATC unit. However - if you are talking to an ATC unit already (and I mean proper ATC) use them first obviously.
Originally Posted by DuchessDriver
If you look at your VFR chart here in the U.K. you will note that certain aerodromes have the initials VDF next to them. Tune in and ask for either bearings or steers (magnetic or true - up to you)
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Buy yourself the biggest-screen GPS you can afford, learn how to use it, and you won't get lost :)
Otherwise, the answer depends on whether you are trying to impress an instructor, or trying to impress your girlfriend. In the former case, you call up D&D on 121.5 and tell them you are unsure of position and ask for help. They don't have much to do these days and like the practice. In the latter case, you will have learnt how to track a VOR and what a DME is, and will have these instruments in your plane, so you do a VOR/DME or DME/DME (or VOR/VOR) fix. In fact, you will have navigated using GPS backed up by VOR/DME so will not have got lost in the first place :) Off to get my coat before the shells start coming in :) |
It may sound obvious, but look directly below you.
I was once on a cross-country and couldn't see the aerodrome I was using as a fix. Due to shadows and light I did not see the airfield as I approached it in a low wing SEP. As soon as I dipped the wing to turn in an effort to fix my position (and therefore go no further) lo and behold I was directly above the fix! Don't panic and follow the good advice proffered elsewhere in this Thread. KR FOK :) |
Remember the 5 C's
CLIMB CONFESS COMMUNICATE COMPLY CONSERVE May not be all you need to do but at least it's a sensible start. |
IO540
I d run for the bunker.....
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1) The unit responsible for the CAS can avoid you like the plague if inside, or plan ahead in case you're likely to infringe (we can see which way you're tracking) 2) D&D can speak to you whereever you are in the country, and the flashing emergency squawk will pinpoint you faster on their (and other) screens. |
Chilli.....
If you're inadvertantly inside CAS then, rest assured, the controller is already ontop of you and, where necessary vectoring away his IFR traffic to maintain the separation it should be affored. You don't need 7700 for this..... If you suspect you're inside CAS then your call should be to that unit first - if they can't help you (you're probably not inside their space) and will recommend a call to D&D. If you don't have the nouse to be able to talk to someone on the radio - you shouldn't be up there in the first place - and certainly nowhere near CAS! DD |
In the former case, you call up D&D on 121.5 and tell them you are unsure of position and ask for help. They don't have much to do these days and like the practice. Yes a GPS would be a reassuring extra to have but if not make sure you are using a service explain that you are new and just ask for them to keep half an eye on your progress. Save the girlfriend telling her mates that half the country was on alert to save you both :) Pace |
But they don't require 7700 for that, surely? I mean, if a CAS controller sees a 7000 squawk heading directly for his/her airspace, wouldn't he/she start planning for an infringement already? Does D&D have nationwide radar coverage? I though they did VDF triangulation? DuchessDriver - feel free to look at my profile first before teaching me to suck eggs ;) The whole point about being lost is you DON'T KNOW where you are, you dont know who's CAS you may have infringed (I've been involved in an aircraft lost scenario where the aircraft was 50 miles away from where they thought they were). 121.5 is a single point of contact who will liaise and co-ordinate, effecting transfer of control if necessary, to the relevant ATC unit. Yes, I will be avoiding any infringer . However, by squawking 7700, and calling 121.5 you can be pinpointed accurately AND SPOKEN TO whilst D&D carry out the above actions. The squawk isn't for my benefit as an ATCO, it's for the lost aircrafts benefit in being quickly located. |
The big picture
My CFI ,over 50 yrs professional flying,told me to look for the big picture,in my case the North Sea coastline.
He reckoned,go to the coast,fly along it until you know where you are then you should be OK. Wherever you are,somewhere to the N,S,E,W will be a large feature,ie,mountain,lake,reservoir,forest,city,motorway etc. Don't be put off by the cocky replies you get from some,most are well meaning.:} Enjoy your flying. Lister |
Buy the best moving map GPS you can afford. Learn how to establish the altitude of controlled airspace from it without having to pause for thought. Preferably wire it in to the aircraft power supply and in any event keep a spare set of batteries handy. Update the database as often as you need to (generally after any major airspace changes in the part of the world you fly in).
Fly around for the next 20 years and never be lost. If the above plan should fail you, call D&D on 121.5 Don't try and rely on any other options at that stage. If you are lost, you are lost. P.S. I'm in the bunker with IO540. |
Re Lister Noble's "Big Picture," with my instructor it was "The Concrete Radial," ie the motorway. Sensible advice. Unless you have been lost for a very long time without noticing anything, you will not be far from where you ought to be so any prominent geographical feature will give you a clue. Otherwise I'm in the tell somebody camp. It's better to call up, either the unit you have been working or D&D, and put them in the picture. Thereafter any one who criticises you is an a*^%$@le.
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Yes, always a good idea to read peoples profiles!
LOL KR FOK :} PS: The only times I have been 'uncertain of position' have occurred in good vis. Must be a moral there - maybe you become more complacent when it all looks well and take your eye off the ball?! |
Chilli...
Sorry mate, not trying to teach you to suck eggs....... I have never been told during my training, nor do any of my fellow instructors advocate setting 7700 as a first or early action...... Sorry, but from my perspective D&D (great fella's, sterling service) are not at the top of the list of 'Things to do when your lost' I teach..... If you're 50 miles away from where you should be then, I'm afraid, it's refresher training for you when you land! DD |
Sorry, but from my perspective D&D (great fella's, sterling service) are not at the top of the list of 'Things to do when your lost' I teach..... What you're teaching, and explaining here, is "things to do when unsure of position" What I'm advocating is "things to do when you're lost" (the title of he thread). There is a difference - lost is when you've exhausted all the options that you were taught during your PPL (those that you can remember) and it's time to bite the bullet. I sincerely hope you and your fellow instructors ARE teaching this because having someone going round in circles, 6 miles out and blocking the ILS, trying to work out where they are and not accepting they are lost is REALLY annoying ;) |
Training fixes are demonstrated and the students are given the opportunity to practice, provided D&D have the time - and, like I said, great service they give.
Sorry, but to me, lost or uncertain of position - I'm sure the differences are minor if you are 6 miles out on the ILS - that's why emphasis is placed on sorting the problem out earlier rather than later. |
that's why emphasis is placed on sorting the problem out earlier rather than later. You (not you personally, just a generic "you") realise you're unsure of your position, you start thinking of all the things you were taught, but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it. You don't know where it is, and so you've just gone from "unsure of position" to "lost" very quickly (if you still want to say unsure of position then fine, but the solution is still going to be the same) - who you going to call? Are you going to ask someone for a VDF bearing? Are you going to stare at the chart and then start panicking as to who you're going to call? Are you going to start dialling up VOR's and trying to work out where you are? NO - YOU'RE IN THE $HIT AND YOU NEED TO SORT IT SHARPISH. 121.5 / 7700 |
Me thinks that you're stretching the discussion......
I accept that there are circumstances where you need to adapt your philosphy a little. Now, I'll stretch my point a little ..... if every aircraft that was lost/uncertain of position went 121.5 / 7700 at the first moment they aren't exactly where they think they are you'd have every training detail and, I suspect a fair number of PPL pilots on frequency within a short space of time. |
Originally Posted by Chilli Monster
but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it.
Coat/Door/Run :E |
Now, I'll stretch my point a little ..... if every aircraft that was lost/uncertain of position went 121.5 / 7700 at the first moment they aren't exactly where they think they are you'd have every training detail and, I suspect a fair number of PPL pilots on frequency within a short space of time. |
Uncertain of position is the CAA approved phrase - necessary because they preside over a training syllabus where this occurs frequently, and they cannot openly admit the syllabus is not up to the job of getting around modern airspace.
Lost is the actual outcome. |
Cake and eat it.......
For clarity, you said..... There is a difference - lost is when you've exhausted all the options that you were taught during your PPL (those that you can remember) and it's time to bite the bullet. Then your scenario.... "You (not you personally, just a generic "you") realise you're unsure of your position, you start thinking of all the things you were taught, but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it. Still only 'unsure of my position' here....stilll options to explore.... You don't know where it is, and so you've just gone from "unsure of position" to "lost" very quickly ........ By your definition, nope....still options to explore....still only unsure.....whose to say those big shiny jets aren't parked up at Exeter, Norwich or some other airport with instrument approaches but no CAS..... Again, I accept your point of view and do advocate a fair degree of common sense and flexibility - but sorry to say I am not in favour of a blanket 'shoot first, ask questions later' approach to fixing position. ... |
nickyboy007
I think you should refer to published documents. This is becoming something of a tennis match and will only serve to confuse you further. KR FOK :) |
By your definition, nope....still options to explore....still only unsure.....whose to say those big shiny jets aren't parked up at Exeter, Norwich or some other airport with instrument approaches but no CAS..... By your reasoning you're still going to sit there trying to work out where you are, when the possibility is you COULD be an infringer. Is it going to hurt to make sure using the method I've said - NO. Is it going to get you out of trouble quickly - YES! I'm not saying "shoot first, ask questions later" as you describe it - But I'll say it simply so that, hopefully, you start to understand what's been said because you seem to be having problems with that. UNSURE OF POSITION - do what you've been taught by the likes of yourself. HOWEVER If you can't work out where you are by using those techniques, or you think, by the odd clue, that you are somewhere you shouldn't be, then you are no longer unsure of position, you are LOST LOST = 121.5 / 7700 |
Uncertain of position is the CAA approved phrase - necessary because they preside over a training syllabus where this occurs frequently, and they cannot openly admit the syllabus is not up to the job of getting around modern airspace. Lost is the actual outcome. There was a tragic accident many moons ago where a VFR pilot on top of a solid overcast was uncertain of position. The poor soul thought he was over the UK but when they traced him his uncertain of position was 200 nm over the north atlantic with no fuel to get back (sadly true) Uncertain of position means quickly being certain of position by hook or by crook as both are the same. Pace |
I have only recently gained my PPL license and like to have figure out what I would do in different situations. I am trying to put together the best procedure if i were to get lost. Chilli Monster knows what he is talking about - read, learn, mark and inwardly digest! |
Shirley it cannot be reasuring to a new PPL to have an instructor argue the toss with the very person who would be there to help, & probably has far more experience of actual "lost" situations than the most highly qualified instructor of simulated "lost" situations. Fr instance what about the panic factor? you can't simulate that.
Scary stuff. |
With regard to the 7700 squawk - some radars are set to filter out 7000 squawks, especially round TMA areas where there is lots of Class G airspace underneath controlled airspace. Without Mode C altitude reporting, we in ATC can assume you're outside controlled airspace (with certain caveats). 7700 breaks through all filters and calls attention to a problem, which is absolutely fine by me. (Not entirely necessary if you're great VMC with no other problems, though, as any ATC unit you call is likely to put you on a squawk for identification).
If I got a PAN call from somebody who was lost in my neck of the woods I'd be only too happy to identify your position and: a) help you find your way to a safe landing, and b) not have to stop departures, break several airliners off the approach and put them back to the hold to avoid an unknown contact in the zone. Take a look at the 'Fly on Track' website for some actual radar recordings of this happening. And remember, everybody makes mistakes because we're just human after all! Seeking assistance at the earliest opportunity is a sign of wisdom, not weakness, and you certainly won't get criticised for that... |
Can somebody who is lost...
...also be uncertain of their postion, or is lost a position?
Banter aside, I would recommend learning to use the GPS well before relying on it. In my relatively early days (still really early days to be honest!) I flew up with a little GPS and didn't really understand the difference between course deviation and bearing pointer. I knew where my waypoing was, by a function of the M1, but it was disconcerting apparently to have the GPS pointing in an entirely random, but fixed direction with some bar breaking in the middle. Hey ho, you navigate, you fly, you land, and you are glad to get the door open to allow the smell to go away... These days, I have an excellent little HP Travel Companion (cheap as chips these days with Tomtom cornering the Road GPS Market). Built in gps; red spot on where you are and I don't think it makes me a bad person. I do enjoy my fling more, knowing it's there. |
In days of yore when I was learning to fly, I was quite pleased with my mapreading ability one day when an experienced PPL had taken me for a fairly long jolly to the extent that he was uncertain of his position and I was able to point this out to him on the map that I was readng. The following weekend the weather was nice so I decided to have a go on my own. With instructor's authority to do a simple no land away triangle, I confidently took off, turned on to calculated heading and looked for ground features. The aircraft I was in kept turning left didn't it and before long I was similarly uncertain of my position. Oops! I knew I would have to admit it as I could have been close to the controlled airspace of my local "big" airfield. With much sinking feeling in my stomach, I pressed the button and, on a crystal clear day requested a QDM. This was immediately given, I turned onto the given heading and saw my home airfield in the distance! Within a few minutes I had accurately identified my position as well clear of the control zone concerned and went on to complete my flight.
When I got back to the club, I was anticipating a load of ribbing about having to request a QDM on a gin clear day, but nothing happened. I didn't bother to mention it to my authorising instructor either, but by jove I learned from it! In future years when I heard similar happening on the radio as an instructor, I always made a point of complimenting the student pilot concerned for good airmanship. Those who requested a "QDM - I know where I am but just want to test the system" received an almost as enthusiastic compliment for good airmanship. The radio is your friend, and ATC are there to help. Think what it was like in the days when no light aircraft carried radio - they managed! P.P. |
Think what it was like in the days when no light aircraft carried radio - they managed! Years ago they had none of that not even radios and had to work harder. On the flip side we are more likely to fly into controlled airspace and the airspace is more controlled. But yes there is no sensible reason to get lost today and even if you do there are plenty of ways to un loose yourself. Pace |
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