Nightmare on second solo
 

I am referring to the November AAIB report

Although this resulted in damage to the aircraft it seems to me the student pilot showed an amazing presence of mind and cool despite lack of experience. In hindsight is there anything he could have done differently to avoid the glider?

Not being there it's very hard to say and he ended up stopped with only a slightly damaged aeroplane so good on him. He might have done better to apply full throttle and execute a climbing right turn if circumstances allowed, but he probably wasn't sure what the glider was going to do! It's always tempting to get comfortably on the ground but if the donkey's happy, air room (like sea room in a ship) is usually the best option. AIUI that's why the Ryanair in Rome was aiming to go around rather than land when it lost a donkey, unfortunately it promptly lost the second one and a rapid forced landing became the only option.

It's impossible to say without knowing the details, but in general just pushing on the yoke isn't going to make the plane land. The only way to make a plane land is to dump the speed, somehow. Just pushing on the yoke will not make it slow down; it will just push it into ground effect which keeps it gliding (or bouncing) along the runway, without slowing down very much. Unless one pushes hard enough to collapse the nosegear in which case the plane will slow down allright but only through the remains of the prop and cowlings grinding grooves in the tarmac.

If one is airborne then a full power go-around is the best way.

If one is on the runway then cutting the engine, jumping on the brakes, and perhaps driving the plane off the runway, would be the best way.

The Ryanair thing was different - they had no engine power to play with so had to go down.

You could argue that a collision on the ground is going to be preferable to one in the air, so I can understand the pilots desire to wind the altimeter to zero first and worry about options later.

opposite direction ?? . . . . same runway ??
 

Well done to the inexperienced SPL for resolving the matter in such a manner that he walked away unhurt . . . . . .

. . . . . . . but surely we should be asking how on EARTH was such a situation allowed to happen in the first place ?

Full report here:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...EU%2011-08.pdf

No wind so the landing direction probably wasn't obvious, especially if you are panicking about large amounts of sink and haven't seen any traffic in the circuit.

My take is that if you have not requested permission to land at an active airfield then you shouldn't be landing on the runway at all - land to the side or elsewhere as necessary. Treat it as a field landing.

Nightmare on second solo indeed.

I'd say that unless any of us were in the situation, faced with making a split-second decision and armed with your unique perception, we should not go debating who and what was right and wrong, what was the right thing to do, who was at fault etc., ergo we have no right to judge.

What would I have done? Gawd knows. I wasn't there so I can't possibly comment.

For me, the main thing here is that casualties were avoided, which itself can only be the best outcome. That's all I can say.

Smithy.

Having read the AAIB report (thanks for posting that BTW), it now seems clear that the glider pilot acknowledged a lot of responsibility, and apologised. Use of radio mandatory, but he didn't.

Once again, well done to the SPL. The aeroplane can be repaired !

In a glider I tune in to the local frequencies when flying cross-country. Usually I just listen in, but do call in if there's any possible conflict.

I have heard one airport reporting a silent glider lurking about with nobody knowing his intentions. That's defintely time to make a call.

When a glider is 2000 AGL or lower, he should be looking out for a place to land and that's the time to let others know that you will be landing if you don't find lift in the next 1000' or so.

It's not good manners to be circling in an active downwind; so it helps to plan on a mid-downwind join or opposite circuit and let other traffic in on the plan.

Gliders normally fly a tight circuit; so it can get sticky when others are flying 3-mile finals.

It may be bleeding obvious to most, but gliders don't do go-arounds or touch & gos. A glider on final is going to land, come hell or high water. On any spot that he deems suitable - which does not necessarily have to be the runway. If there's something or somebody in the way they'll just land next to it with a few meters clearance. Or they'll land short and come to a stop a few meters from you. Or even overfly you at three meters and put the glider down behind you. These guys are very, very creative in picking a safe landing spot.

Not being able to execute a go-around is one reason, but they also cannot taxi away from the landing zone under their own power. So they need to be pulled out with a tractor, golfcart or by hand, which takes time. If there's a cluster of gliders that have landed already they'll try to land and stop as close to that cluster as safely possible, so that the rest of the landing area stays clear for other aircraft.

I was doing a weeks glider course this spring. At the end of the week, after about 15 flights, I was able to put the glider down on a strip of grass that was about three meters wide and 75 meters long, and come to a rest, as intended, a meter or two from the far edge of the field. It was the only bit of grass that didn't have menure on it, so we had good reason to land there.

Well, the AAIB report (thanks for posting, incidentally) doesn't really add much to our overall picture;

Quote:

---

Whilst in the landing flare, he became aware of a glider coming towards him in the opposite direction "filling the windscreen."

---

and


On the basis of that, I don't honestly know what I would have done on my second solo. I'm pretty certain that, 27 years later, I would have elected missed approach, go around with full power away from the glider but careful of obstructions. I'd be pretty certain that the glider wouldn't making the same choice.

Who knows? we weren't there. He walked away from a repairable A/C, so he deserves some credit.

It's all very well from the comfort of one's armchair, with hundreds or thousands of hours experience, to say I would have gone around. For a second solo student, doing everything correctly and then being faced with a potential head on collision, I would say he did very well to walk away with only minor damage to the aircraft.

Very bad drills, I would suggest, for the more experienced glider pilot to land against the traffic at an active airfield without talking to anyone. Steam may well give way to sail, but that does not absolve sail from responsibility for common sense and airmanship. I hope he bought the solo stude a slab of beer!

I suspect one of the reasons gliders often fail to call in when dropping in is that students can go all the way to license without ever having to look up and change the radio frequency.

Perhaps instructors should make students check the altimeter setting from a nearby ATIS.

I suspect the glider pilot was not vastly more experienced in landing (other than at home) than the 2nd solo pilot. The clue is in the last paragraph of the AAIB report:

Glider pilots are required by their clubs to stay within gliding range of their launching airfield until they have gained their cross-country endorsement. It is likely, therefore, that this glider pilot had no real experience in field landing, and thus no competence or confidence. He misjudged his height for returning home (badly, because the nearest gliding site is some miles away) and had to land somewhere. In these circumstances a runway would appear miraculous (and given the pilot's work load, probably seemed to appear literally out of nowhere, explaining the rushed circuit in the opposite direction to other landing traffic).

As this was "the second time the pilot had landed out in over 1,000 flights", I'd further speculate that what we have here is the Fotherington-Thomas species (ref: Molesworth) - flying around singing "Hello birds, hello nice cumulus" until caught by surprise that the nice cumulus wasn't working as expected.

I recognise that I, with fewer flights but many more field landings, might be caught out by unexpected heavy sink, miss noticing the circuit direction and land the wrong way, though I hope not. In those circumstances I'd be attempting XC flight, and would screw up because I'd left my field selection too late. But this pilot, if he was restricted to local soaring and complying with that restriction, must have been 3,000 ft or so agl when things started to go wrong, with plenty of time to look for potential landing sites and review the airfield traffic. From 1,000 flights, even if 998 were within gliding range, I'd have expected far more situational awareness.

Well done the 2nd solo pilot. I agree about the slab of beer!

May I add my congratulations, too, to the novice SPL for resolving this situation in such a way that he walked away from a repairable aeroplane !

Not the sort of problem, let's face it, that you'd expect to be able to look up the answer in a text book !

This reminds me of the press reports one sees, from time to time, of people who get confused and manage to drive the wrong way down a motorway.

The difference is that it is not treated as "bad manners" and redressed by "a slab of beer" or a rebuke from the police.

I also was surprised at only 2 landouts in over 1,000 flights - certainly not a path I seem to be following!

However it can be very easy to get caught out if there is wave about - the Cu works wonderfully well under the 'up' and then one hits a patch under the 'down' and can go from well above to well below the glide slope remarkably quickly. It helps to have a suitable field already picked... 'A massive amount of sink' does fit with wave interference, and the general area is certainly subject to wave.

The other thing the report doesn't mention is if the glider pilot had enough height to do enough of a circuit and land in the same direction as the other traffic.

In this situation can the glider pilot actually use the radio to request landing permission? Assuming that he did not have a radio licence. I'd guess that the tower would not be monitoring the gliding frequencies?

Full Sutton is an uncontrolled field with A/G service only. A/G cannot give landing permission, only airfield information like circuit direction and runway in use.

However, my flight guide has this to say about Full Sutton: "PPR. Non-radio ACFT not accepted. Radio use is mandatory." and "Intensive gliding at Pocklington, 4nm SE of AD."

From personal experience I can testify that glider pilots, at least initially, seem to fear the radio like the plague. During my weeks long glider course my instructor did not use the radio once. In fact, I don't think we even had a mike on board.

There's a few glider frequencies that are exempt from the requirement of holding a radio license. A typical A/G frequency would not be exempt so yes, you need a radio license, but that's something that's only acquired rather late in your glider flying career. Not, like in powered flying, together with your PPL.

So the glider pilot may or may not have had a radio license. Nevertheless, if the situation was developing as rapidly as some have suggested earlier (poor situational awareness combined with a high sink rate due to wave), even with a radio license, he might not have time to figure out what airfield he was at, look up the frequency, select it and make the call. My flight guide also doesn't show a signals square at Full Sutton so without a radio it would be impossible to know the circuit direction and runway in use. Unless you spot and follow circuit traffic, of course.

But even if he were to know the circuit direction and flew a neat pattern, conforming with the other traffic, it would have been bad form to land *on* the runway. After all, gliders can't taxi clear but need to be pulled/pushed clear. When you land at a field which doesn't normally receive gliders, and also doesn't have a fire crew standby, it may take several minutes before people realize what is happening and a group of two-three people has been assembled to push the glider clear of the runway.

As said, we're not talking about a "tower" here, but an A/G frequency, which would be addressed as "Full Sutton Radio" - despite the fact that they are probably sitting in an air-traffic-control-tower-like-structure. But yes, you can bet they won't be monitoring the gliding frequencies - after all there are no gliding activities supposed to take place at Full Sutton.

The only thing that theoretically could have happened is that he would broadcast his intention to land at Full Sutton on the Pocklington Glider Ops frequency, and that somebody at Pocklington would give Full Sutton a phonecall to warn them of a glider dropping in unannounced. Full Sutton would then be able to warn the aircraft in the circuit. Lots of if's in that scenario though.

Thanks BP. I certainly intend to get my radio licence at a similar time to going cross country, but in ~80 flights the radio in any glider I fly (if one is even fitted) has never been switched on. Very different to PPL as you say.

Out of interest I checked my "Bronze and Beyond" book (a well-endorsed book for glider pilots in the transition from first solo to early cross country flying) - there is a section on landing out at airfields- it mentions that landing on a runway is preferable to landing alongside one, due to the unknown state of the surroundings to the runway (potholes etc).

It does mention the importance of radioing your intentions and checking for other traffic in the circuit though, and of pulling your glider off the runway as soon as possible.

Well, the potholes argument applies to outlandings too. Something glider pilots do not have a problem with.

Anyway, you'll find that most power pilots have not given a second thought to glider operations, and won't realize something about glider operations, even if it is bloody obvious if you think about it.

Most power pilots will therefore expect a glider that just landed on the runway, to vacate at the earliest opportunity, like all powered aircraft do. They'll be very surprised to see the hood open on the runway, the pilot get out and attempt to move his glider off the runway manually.

In a busy power circuit, spacing is timed so that nr. 2 is on short final just as nr. 1 vacates. A glider in the circuit is fine. It behaves more or less like a powered aircraft. But if it doesn't vacate the runway as quickly as a powered aircraft, it screws up the spacing, forcing go-arounds and such. Unlike glider ops, the runway in power ops is always for the exclusive use of one aircraft at a time. Runway occupied means go-around.

If you ever have to land at the runway which is normally used for power traffic, and there are aircraft in the circuit, may I suggest you contact the tower/info/radio beforehand and ask them to have a few helping hands standby to help you vacate the runway ASAP? I know gliders are a bitch to handle on the ground solo, particularly if there's a bit of wind, but one extra person to hold a wingtip makes it easy.

I think it's a BZ to the stude who, when faced with a situation for which he was totally un-trained, got out and walked away, and caused no harm to anyone else. A big raspberry to the glider pilot who stoofed big time, and was lucky not to get chewed up by a fast-spinning propellor.

I'd love to have heard the "re-briefing". Sounds like a "your hat, my office, no beverages" type of event :E

Full Sutton has an ATZ. The glider pilot didn't comply with the ANO with regard to entering the ATZ, namely he failed to make the compulsory radio call or to comply with the existing traffic pattern. Who is paying for the repairs to the Cessna?

Insurance i think

a day later and another glider did exactly the same :} he landed without any notice against the active traffic... i dont think there were many in the circuit at the time :eek:

I wonder what you would have done?given that the glider pilot stated he did not see the other aircraft we can assume that he didn't land towards it on purpose,he is in sink and going down,probably somewhat nervous at the thought of landing out and in a high workload situation.Are you really saying he should not enter the atz when the runway is under him? He can't open up and go-around.
The student,in the same situation handled it well in my opinion.But I would not want to have been in iether position and certainly don't feel comfortable apportioning blame!

If he had chosen to make use of the radio all his problems would have been averted. A quick call would have told him the runway in use and alerted other traffic to his intentions. At the very least a call of "Full Sutton Radio, glider landing immediately RW04" would probably have prevented this accident.

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't time for that in a glider - he positioned for a right hand circuit to 04, after all. At glider speeds he must have had several minutes between deciding to land at FS and getting on the ground. Everyone here should be able to tune a radio eg to 121.5 and put out a call whilst flying a (practice) forced landing pattern with a high rate of descent.

Perhap for B Certificate and beyond (ie gliding outside the home circuit) glider pilots should be taught a few choice phrases for the radio and how to use the thing. I am sure his rebriefing from his CFI covered some of these points!

The adage ''Every landing you walk away from is a good one and one where the aircraft is still flyable is a great one'' springs to mind.

A good outcome to a potential serious incident and I hope the chap in question continues with his training. I would imagine that he has learnt a lot from this in particular that normally gliders whilst committed to approach can't go around unless there is a pylon mounted engine. In hindsight I am sure he would concur that if engine power was still available that a go around with a right turn would have possibly been the better option. With that said considering his experience a go around with low level turn could have excaberated the situation leading to stall spin.

This is no way a criticism and I commend him for landing the aircraft with out injury and dealing with a situation that would probably disturb even the most experienced of aviators.

Regards MF26

To what purpose? Sure, D&D might pick up the call from low level and call Full Sutton via the landline, so that they can get the word out on the radio, but I think by then the glider will have landed anyway.

Full Sutton Radio will not be listening on 121.5, and knowing the type of traffic that typically frequent non-towered airfields, neither will any of the traffic.

No, not at all, but if "the runway is under him", it's a bit late to consider ATZ entry procedures when a pilot is already as far inside the airspace as one can get. Airfield procedures and airspace are there to prevent an incident like this from occurring. The Full Sutton frequency is published on the CAA VFR charts.

Pocklington is only four miles from Full Sutton so I would have thought the glider pilot should have thought about this local radio frequency well before this incident, especially as he was relatively well experienced.

In any event, hopefully the publication of this report will serve it's designed purpose, namely to allow others to learn from the mistakes made, which could have had far more serious consequences.

You misunderstand me BackPacker.

I was saying that all the pilots of powered aircraft on this website (whether PPL, ATPL, military etc) should easily be able to select a frequency and make a quick radio call while under pressure. The most obvious example would be selecting an appropriate frequency, such as 121.5, calling a Mayday while flying a forced landing pattern, under pressure and with a high rate of descent. No-one here would have had a licence issued if they couldn't do that.

Therefore, I suggest it's not too much to ask for the 250hr glider pilot to have selected the Full Sutton frequency, made a call similar to that in my last post, whilst flying a circuit to land. I was not saying he should have contacted 121.5, but that still would be better than nothing.

Okay, not 121.5 then but the Full Sutton frequency. How would he know its frequency? Gliders don't normally use an info frequency like London info, so they can't ask there. And looking it up on the map, then selecting it, while in a high sink situation and trying to spot traffic at an unfamiliar airfield... Kinda hard to do.

Furthermore, the radios I've seen in the gliders I flew all were of a rather old design, with no standby frequency, and individual pushbuttons for each digit. And due to cockpit layout and the way you sit (lie) in it, they were just not quite within reach. Not an excuse, but possibly a factor.

Now to be honest, I'm not trying to make up excuses for this pilot to land on the wrong runway, unannounced. I think he should have never gotten near or over the ATZ in the first place. So from what I can see his first mistake was losing situational awareness, or maybe even getting lost completely. From that point on, it all went downhill. But one of the factors in that downhill slide is, in my humble opinion, the way the glider training curriculum simply ignores the whole concept of VHF radio until you're well into the x-country stage. And then still radio is virtually only used if a controlled airspace transit is called for, not to do circuit calls at the landing site.

Full Sutton is just 4nm away from the glider pilot's home base. There's no excuse for not knowing the frequency or having it highlighted on the chart, especially as the pilot fully intended to overfly Full Sutton before departure.

It's called P L A N N I N G. When I lived in the UK, I had a list on my kneeboard of all the airfields close to base (within 25NM), a bearing/distance from base their ICAO codes and the radio frequencies for these. Never had to use it, but it was always there. If necessary, I would have used "Direct to" on my GPS or taken a quick chart fix and the radio for a snap diversion

Fail to plan, plan to fail.

The trouble with some glider pilots is that they believe being a good stick and rudder guy is the job description of a pilot, whereas it is much, much more.

Glider pilots with power experience are generally much safer to be around in my opinion, as they have a better ability to understand and balance the workoad required.

Go around with a shallow turn to the right would have been the best option, however I would not expect that from a 19hr solo student.
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute here;
For obvious reasons gliders have right of way and he landed on the east side of runway 04 according to the report.
Now, had a look at Google Earth, he could have landed on the shorter grass strip leading to the hangar in the middle.
Where was the student's instructor? Did he have a handheld radio ?
Could he have warned the student?
What is somewhat bothersome is that nobody seemed to have seen each other.

Radio use by glider pilots
 

As a glider pilot myself I was dissmayed to read the AAIB report re the actions of the glider pilot.

Some observations.
He (the glider pilot) planned to fly the task, Pocklington -Elvington-Full Sutton-Pocklington. He was therefore planning to fly over the stub of Church Fenton MATZ and then Full Sutton ATZ. Basic common sense says that if you are using active airfields as turnpoints you must anticipate that you may have to land at them.

Reference to his half mil map would have given him both radio frequencies, either in the air or before he set off. Although not mandatory, it would have been sensible to call Church Fenton to say he was over their MATZ or to request a MATZ penetration (it was a Wednesday so he could expect them to be flying).

If on the very edge of Full Sutton ATZ he should have been at 2,000 ft at least, otherwise he is about to enter it.

'Massive sink' might be experienced for a time then followed by some lift (it was the 4th of June so it seems unlikely he had flown into the lee side of mountain wave when east of York). Therefore if the sink he flew into caused him to land immediately perhaps he was already near circuit height. If so, and he chose FS he was probably well into their ATZ.

Earlier post have highlighted the fact that glider pilots dont have the same RT training as power pilots until going cross/country. My experience is that we dont get it even then. I had to take the RT course at Leeds/Bradford in order get my RT operators licence as no-one at my club thought it necessary. I found the 'practical' part of the test very difficult, after all we dont get the same exposure to even just hearing RT transmitions as power pilots do. But it was well worth it. I wouldn't dream of not calling a gliding site for runway-in-use let alone an aerodrome. I would like to see RT procedure included in glider training before any pilot is cleared by his CFI to fly solo cross country.

One final point. I know the CFI at The Wolds Gliding Club at Pock and have huge respect for him. I'm sure the pilot got a very thorough debrief.

Not surprised they didn't see other as once on short final you tend to focus on the landing spot until the flare and look up the runway and get a nasty surprise:eek:

I was once doing circuits and witnessed the a/c ahead come quite close on rollout to another a/c that had landed in the opposite direction. Heard nothing on the radio.

Now for the power types suddenly faced with an opposite landing glider: The rollout is maybe 50 yards and can be less; so if you can stop on the first half of the runway there will be no problems.

If the glider pilot comes from a busy field, he/she will have been schooled to get the glider off the runway ASAP. It's not hard to do; pick up the tail to swing it around; then push or pull. The glider won't go straight without help, but you can move about even a two-seater single-handed.

snapper1

I admire your airmanship :D

Hear, hear. :ok:

well said
 

snapper1

Probably the best post on this thread so far !

Fancy applying for a job at the AAIB ?

:ok: