Safer Flying?
 

Hi,

Just passed my PPL.

Ive heard of quite a few people having crashes in light aircraft and have come to the conclusion that the 2 main reasons of fatalities is due to the aircraft bursting into flames on impact or the impact itself.

I have seen an aircraft i want to buy and it is a cessna with a centurion diesel engine conversion. If i was to put a ballistic parachute onto that then that would make flying alot safer wouldnt it?

In the event of loss of control i could just pull the parachute , and therefore wouldnt die from the impact. And even if i did have a good hard impact , diesel doesnt expode does it?

Matt :)

Sounds like a good plan. With all that extra weight it will magically turn into a two seater, so fewer people will die.

Statistically it will be twice as safe as a normal 172. :)

So you obviously think it's a waste of money or a bad idea then?

No, just pointing out that there are negatives as well as positives. Personally I'd spend the money on training and experience so that I didn't end up losing control. It seems to me to be missing the point to spend loads of money something to mitigate the chances of death after a cock up.

From what I understand, the ballistic parachutes may well save your life, but you're likely to suffer spinal damage in the (not quite so hard) impact anyway.

A modern aeroplane with a safety cell might be money better spent than worrying whether Jet A1 burns as easily as Avgas in a C172. Gliders don't have any fuel and pilots usually wear parachutes, but glider drivers still die.

You could always take up table tennis to be totally sure that you'll be safe. ;)

Princepilot,
If you have just passed your PPL, I would recommend learning more first before thinking of buying an aircraft. You can not just put a chute on an aircraft even if it was a good idea. For a certified aircraft, what you buy is what you get. Just putting new avionics in can be a massive paperwork exersize.

I would echo what several other people on here have said. The best investment you can make right now is further training.

A parachute will only really be of help in the event of a major structural failure and the chances of a major structural failure on a well maintained Cessna are so minute, that I would really be worried about it happening.

Princepilot

I think you will find that you may need a Supplemental Type Certificate to retrofit a ballistic parachute (BRS) to your Cessna and there probably isn't one available. I believe Cessna are planning to introduce them on new aircraft in the near future but this almost certainly won't cover the existing fleet. The idea is probably a non-starter.

You also have to consider whether they actually will make your flying safer in any event. The safety record of Cirrus in the States is not good. There is speculation that the 'security blanket' of a BRS may make some pilots complacent and end up in situations they might not otherwise have got themselves into !

The following quote is from AVweb who reviewed the Cirrus and commented on the poor safety record. Several owners got upset about the facts being highlighted which prompted the following response:

I would entirely agree with Eltonioni that you should focus on training and experience as the best way to spend your money. Don't worry too much about impacts and explosions as this might start to effect your judgement and confidence. As you get a few more hours under your belt you will find it relaxing and fun. Try and split your flying with a mixture of well planned self-flown touring, getting more adventurous each time. The other flying should be continual training with an instructor (or experienced old salt from the club!) to keep honing your handling, circuits, PFLs etc. Make sure you are experienced in obtaining weather reports both before and during flight so that you never get yourself into a difficult situation. Just keep expanding your confidence so that there is no doubt in your mind that you truly are 'Pilot in Command'

Also, take a quick look at the following AOPA Safety publication which has some interesting summaries of ballistic parachute deployment on page 16.

Great if you have one . . . . but don't worry if you haven't !

Enjoy your flying :)

www.aopa.org/asf/publications/taa_1_6.pdf

Reasons for BRS deployment
 

Julian, while I agree with your view that training is the way ahead, I would comment that none of the Cirrus BRS deployments have been due to spontaneous airframe failure (there was one aileron that fell off but that was due to maintenance error). Most of the incidents seem to relate to pilot error - usually getting into turbulent or otherwise harsh IMC conditions (which could have been avoided). Other incidents occurred due to spin practice which is prohibited in the POH (:ugh:)

I can understand your thinking.

In the early days after your ppl all sorts of fears creap in.

Here is my take.

1. A ballistic chute is a very good idea for a IFR capable touring aircraft. There are occasions if you are going to fly in all weather over rugged terrain where a BC can be a life saver - low cloudbase, night, terrain with no suitable landing area etc.

2. Realistically you will never get approval to fit one to a certified aircraft - so whilst in theory a very good idea - forget it. In Euro land it is a major mod and if you went down this road there will be no change out of £50K - maybe more! In any event you are far better off buying an aircraft with one fitted when and if your needs demand (see above)

3. Nearly all fatal accidents are due to pilot error and most occur in the circuit (where a chute may be of little benefit anyway). The other common reasons, CFIT and loss of control in IMC, are both avoidable.

4. In short in a well maintained aircraft if you exclude pilot error you would have to be very unlucky indeed to suffer a fatal accident for other reasons.

5. In a SEP loss of an engine is a small risk. In the majority of cases a forced landing (even if you had a chute fitted) is the best way down but pilots do not practise FL enough.

In short invest your money in the best maintenance you can, keep on investing in training until you are happy you can cope with almost anything you are likely to enounter, buy an aircraft when you are ready with as low a time engine as you can afford, learn how to fly as defensively as possible - you be glad you spent your money in this way rather than in any other.

Fuji,

I will do that i think. I have just got my PPL but have 2 kids and a fiance and was just getting a bit twitchy about anything happening and losing them. I think i will invest another 5k in training and handling skills then i probably wont be so worried about the eventuality of a crash.

Matt

Prince pilot--seriously suggest you read the Highway Code, you are more likely to have an accident to and from the airfield than in the aircraft if you fly safely--aircraft only bite fools.

In fact the two main reasons are

(1) taking off when you should have stayed on the ground

(2) pressing on with Plan A long after a switch to Plan B was called for.

Included in the above are all the usual things, like

do not fly into cloud
do not run out of fuel

and so on and so on.

All of which basically means carry on taking seriously all the stuff you were taught.

Look at the statistics. "Loss of control", which you appear to be worried about, is a very small cause of crashes. Leaving out, that is, people who lose control when they fly into cloud they aren't qualified to fly in - but the solution to that one isn't adding widgets to the aircraft ... it's simply refraining from flying into cloud ... which in turn quite often simply means staying on the ground on days when the weather means you've got no business to go flying.

One thing I've found helpful which no instructor ever told me: when you offer someone a ride, if it's in summer you tell them that there's a 50/50 chance of it being cancelled due to bad weather, and if it's in winter you tell them that it's four to one on being cancelled because of bad weather, and you tell them that you might decide to cancel after they've taken the trouble to travel to the airport. That way there's no pressure from passengers to go flying when you shouldn't.

princepilot

my suggestion for your immediate flying plans would be to join an established group at your flying club. Find one that seems to be well run, sociable and that keep the aircraft in top condition. You will then have great fun over the next couple of years joining in shared trips etc . . . and learning a vast amount in the process.

your club may also run regular 'fly-outs' and such like. Join up to as many of these as you can - and go with at least one of your group members.

I wouldn't bother to think about owning your 'own' aircraft until you reach at least 250 hours or so. Even if you can afford it, you will miss out on an essential part of the learning ladder !

That always sounds like a good plan.

Incidentally, last summer I was at an airfield in NE Spain (LECD - La Cerdanya) where I briefly met a local pilot and his wife in a C172--a couple weeks latter I read in the local press they had crashed in the mountains not far from there. Last night I was browsing the website of the Spanish equivalent of the AAIB and read the final report on this accident.

The cause? Loss of control after entering a stall while attempting to gain sufficient height to cross a ridge. This resulted in the death of the pilot who was not wearing his shoulder strap, and serious injuries to the two rear passengers--the remaining front seat occupant walked away with only light injuries.

This guy had been a PPL for about six months, with a grand total of about 120hrs. He had been flying his own plane.

It is my belief that, had he been flying a club aircraft, he would have been more likely to stay in contact with, and receive advice from, more experienced pilots who if nothing else would have had an interest in the integrity of the airframe (go on, call me a cynic :hmm:). As a matter of fact, in my aeroclub we have a number of private pilots who own their own planes but they still collaborate with the club--they participate in club activities, fly with other pilots, etc. I can't see these guys making such a basic, and tragic, handling mistake.

Bottom line, stay in touch, fly with, and listen to the more experienced pilots. Perhaps you will find someone you like and take him flying with you in exchange for his experience (plus in a spamcan you will often need two pilots anyhow to negotiate the most complex airspace, etc.)

HTH

PD: Crossed posts with the two above gentlemen, giving essentially the same advice.

PPD: Here's the link to the aforementioned accident report, in Spanish only I'm afraid: A-021/2007

What you are trying to say is that the main reasons are

ATTITUDE TO AIRMANSHIP

Your own personal attitude is usualy the start of the error chain.

£5,000 of handling skills will not improve your chances of survival if you fly into a cloud with a hard centre.

LH2,

You sound like a very wise person. I guess i just got ahead of myself and wanted to run befre i could walk. I only have £20k to buy an aircraft so might even just spend half of it on gaining experience and then look at my finances some point in the future.

Thanks
alot

Matt

Here's my 2 cents worth:

- Make a start with an IMC rating course
- Make a start with an unusual attitudes/aerobatics course

Even if you don't finish any of these courses, the experience you gain might save you some day.

- Join a club so that you can fly with other pilots, and have a purpose to your flying.

Excellent point and the point I made about the Caenarfon accident--authorisation, which should contain an element of advice from a responsible experienced pilot

My 2 cents worth

Find out what you should have been taught on the PPL course and make sure you have covered all of the syllabus. An awful lot gets left out with some schools/clubs or gets glossed over.

Go over cross country flying again and get as much experience in as you can, also fly with more experienced pilots.

The best and cheapest place to learn about airmanship is on the ground, read, ask questions etc.. You can learn an awful lot by reading accident reports.

Advice is great. Authorisation is more than advice, it's permission. It was the culture of authorisation that killed BK's crew at Blackpool. Whatever the CFI authorised, the pilot in command accepted, as he wasn't used to making his own decisions. So stop being a nanny and start letting pilots exercise the privileges of their licence to be the commander of an aircraft.

I prefer the nanny approach, its kept my pilots alive for 33 years

I get so excited every time I read the word " commander " to describe a Cessna 150 pilot.....makes me want to go out and buy Gold bars. :E

I wonder if telling some bar fly you are an aircraft commander would make it easier to get laid?

Spend the money on Penthouse, its better value but still all tits and fanny just like on here.

Depends on whether you mention it's a 150. ;)

Lots of good advice and I am reminded of the adage that the superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid getting into situations where he has to use his superior skill.

That said if you are going to crash make sure the wings are level and that you are under control (ie dont stall or spin). Its the loss of control near the ground that invariably involve fatalities. Remember also to spin you need a stalled wing and yaw - so avoid doing this!

Also the other one to avoid is CFIT - get proficient at instrument flying and if you so end up in cloud inadvertently climb to the MSA as soon as possible.

..makes me want to go out and buy Gold bars.

Actually I have a set and a white shirt with those gay loops on the shoulders to mount the bars on.

We are forced to wear them in places such as Africa and other third world countries when ferrying airplanes, without them it is very difficult to get anything done.

However I draw the line at wearing them in public or off an airport.

I have a real pilot at home who wears them.

Meet Wilbur Wrong...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...h/P1010671.jpg

We will not answer to " Commander " though.

Is that cruelty to animals?

Firstly, many congratulations on gaining your PPL - a big achievement, and a licence to enjoy a whole lot of new adventures.

Regarding accidents; whilst I've never been a full-time air accident investigator, I've worked on a lot of accident / safety investigations (and still am), and also quite a lot (20+, I've lost count) of light aircraft designs, most of which I had authority to sign for. I've also been in two light aircraft accidents (one my fault!) and walked away from both. This is basically a preamble intended to say that I think I know what I'm talking about. (Also slightly pompous, for which I apologise).

Firstly, yes Diesel (AVTUR) will both burn and explode. The conditions to make it explode are a little harder to achieve than with petroleum spirit (AVGAS) but it's do-able, so a Diesel fuel system is no particular life-saver.

Secondly, in my opinion a very low proportion of light aircraft accidents are rendered non-survivable by fire, explosion, or entrapment. Non-survivable accidents are almost always rendered so by ground impact, and the fire, etc. is pretty much an afterthought to make life harder for the accident investigators.

Third, the vast majority of light aircraft fatal accidents are caused by either loss of control, or loss of situational awareness at low level - leading to some combination of stall, spin, or flight into terrain (what the airline boys call CFIT). Ground impact is generally the killer, loss of control or awareness is what causes that, and very often it'll happen too low for any kind of parachute (save an ejection seat, which isn't an option for this end of aviation) to save the aircraft occupants.

So, if you are worried about preservation of life on board, then for my money the big issue is avoiding loss of control or situational awareness at low level. Neither a Diesel aircraft, nor a ballistic parachute (although they both have definite benefits for other reasons) will do much for you there.
So what are? Well, here's a few ideas:

(1) More training, particularly on the type and variant that you buy. Also think about any skill-enhancing ratings (night, IMC, tailwheel) as you go along..

(2) A suitably beginner friendly aeroplane. Statistically, for somebody in your position, a tapered wing PA28 (e.g. a PA28-151 or -161) or a C152 are about as good as you'll get, and should be achievable on your budget.

(3) A damned good headset, reducing personal stress levels, and improving your concentration.

(4) Find out if the given aircraft has any enhanced stall warning options.

(5) Don't buy outright for your first aeroplane, buy a syndicate share - that way you are surrounded by a wealth of experience which will keep you safe and sensible, if you take the trouble to listen to it.


G

I would have quoted that as much harder hence you very rarely hear of a diesel bomb.
Very good advice Genghis now can you advise on the carb post and if a C152 needs engineering attention after a carb fire.

Haven't seen that thread, I'll take a look.

G

Airbus crews these days, huh?! ;)

Wilbur was the perfect pilot.

When he was not playing the " commander " role sitting on his ass and barking he was whining.

Sadly he went to the big dog kennel in the sky last June with many hundreds of hours flying with me.

He even had his own security ID tag that he wore when he was at the airport.....I laminated his picture on top of one of my airport security tags and he wore it proudly......but he was smart enough to refuse to wear a Hi-Vis vest. :E

Genghis,

Thanks for the reply. I am definitely going to spend my time and money on more training and when i decide which aircraft i want to buy i will invest in alot of extra training on that type.

Matt

BRS parachute system for Cessna 172
 

Princepilot

My comments in an earlier post suggesting there was unlikely to be a certified retrofit BRS parachute for the 172 may have been completely wrong ! I was glancing through the latest issue of US flying magazine "Plane & Pilot" this afternoon and came across a news item to the effect that one may well be available. Take a look at:

www.brsparachutes.com/default.aspx

and

http://www.brsparachutes.com/ViewDoc...?DocumentID=83

I am not suggesting that it would be the best way to spend your money and feel that you should stick with all the good advice earlier . . . . but apologies for the misinformation !

Chuck I know you are having trouble with the definition of Captain and Commander so try mine;

The load controller makes me sign the load sheet because I am the captain.

The cabin crew ask me if I can encourage the guys in row 1 from being rowdy because I am the commander.

If your having trouble understanding that can I add we have many captains with gold bars in our company but not so many commanders.

If your having trouble understanding that can I add we have many captains with gold bars in our company but not so many commanders.

No I understand perfectly what the two words mean, it's just that I personally have moved beyond needing to use the terms to describe myself.

Same with wearing a uniform and being all decked out with gold bars and wings and such, I do not need all that to do the job expected of me when I'm " In Command " of a flying device.

But thats just me.

Here is my slant on this flying airplanes thing.

Several years ago we lost an engine on take off in Jeddah, we ended up having to make two trips back to Jeddah to change the engine. It was seven months before we finally finished with all the bureaucratic B.S. and the physical torture of working outside in temperatures over 50 degrees C. before we finally finished and were able to continue the ferry flight to the USA.

It is my personal feelings that comparing the two different jobs, flying versus fixing are quite different and my job satisfaction was far more satisfying with regard to fixing versus flying.

A well trained monkey can fly an airplane but can a monkey fix one?

Hi Princepilot,

If I was in your position I would not rush to take anyone up until I was fully confident in my abilities and had gained solid flight experience. This would include a thorough understanding of the limitations and behaviour of your chosen ac (beyond that of the PPL training) so would look for some aerobatic type instruction.

Accidents can happen in any activity that involves human participation, normally the end result is based on the speed and quality of the actions/steps that get taken as a problematic situation develops. Many say having the ability to detecting the prevailing situation in the first place is the best way to prevent them, however this requires awareness/experience and a good understanding of what you are doing.

Also it might not be your actions that can cause an accident, so having a parachute is no guarantee and should it happen at low altitude the chute would be near useless.

Thorough planning and having good situational awareness will reduce the risk, but gaining an understanding of what the ac feels like at its limits will help also.

Agree with Bookworm. Part of the problem is a fear of making one's own decisions. By all means get your licence and then, with the right attitude, buy your own aircraft and very gently start pushing the envelope.

The attitude is key: be humble and realise that you don't know enough to be frightened when you should be and you will probably be OK.

Prince Pilot,

You certainly have recieved a lot of great advice here, which I completely support. It sounds as though you're inclined to follow it, and I commend you for that. This forum would thus have served it's most important purpose: Helping a pilot grow a safe attitude.

As for the parachute, approving the installation of such a modification in Canada would be within the scope of my job, but I would be very reluctant to do it. The main reason is that I would have a terrible time trying to figure out how I would draft a Flight Manual Supplement which would describe the precise circumstances under which it should be used. This would be pilot decision making of the highest order. I am confident that a pilot who was so skilled in decision making, would never be in circumstanes where the chute would help.

I've been flying for more than 30 years, and I have never been in a circumstance where I would have considered deploying a chute, if I'd had it. I've never hit the ground when I did not plan to either. Luck? Probably. I pay a lot attention to flying safely though, and avoiding unsafe circumstances. As has been pointed out, the major cause for fatal accidents seems to be controlled flight into terrain, in which case, the chute is of zero use! Aside from airframe ice, I have never heard of a single Cessna becoming unflyable in flight. You'd be amazed how much damage they can tolerate, and still land safely. You should see what a 10 pound goose can do to a Cessna wing!

If you're flying places where you really would not want to have to do a forced approach, either fly higher, fly a twin, or buy a ticket. As for flying the whole family around, I've done it a few times, but I really do not plan my family life so it is necessary. I suggest that you allow yourself to become a much more experienced pilot before you start flying the clan around. That does not mean that you can't take them for a ride one by one, but being husband and dad, as well as pilot, might become too much responsibility all at once for a new pilot. If the whole family has to be somewhere else, as before, buy tickets.

Keep reading here, (but don't take the nonsense seriously), and you'll learn a lot!

Fly safely, it sounds like you're off to a good start!

Pilot DAR

I am permitted to take only some of my children flying at once. I am not permitted to take my wife flying if any of the children are left on the ground. (Which, as I haven't found a 206 for rent anywhere near Cambridge, means I've never taken the whole family flying. If you ignore the time the pilot of a chartered Beaver let me have a go.)

Oh dear...

that welsh poster wrote:

...and that's rubbish on so many levels...

Prince pilot: you're asking a good question there. The answer, if you're looking for certainty, is "don't fly".