VFR Flight at night not permitted in the UK??
 

I read the following in the VFR-Guide for UK just released.

"VFR Flight is not permitted in any UK airspace at night. Night is defined as the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise, sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level.":uhoh:

I don't get it. If VFR isn't permitted at night in the UK, then there is no need to get the night rating though. I'm wondering if this is just a mistake.

Anyone flying VFR at night in the UK? Hey hey.

WP

As usual, confusion between IFR and IMC.

IFR is Instrument Flight Rules - these dictate how far you have to be from the lumps in the ground, what instruments you need to have and various other things. IMC refers to what you can (or cannnot) see out of the window.

It is perfectly possible to fly IFR in perfect VMC (Visual Metorological Conditions).

Flight at night in the UK must be in accordance with IFR (or special VFR if in a control zone).

SD

Correct, as is Nipper2's post.

You do not need an IMC rating or IR to fly IFR in the UK (at night or any other time). However, if you don't have one of those ratings, you must not fly in IMC. (The UK is quite unusual in having this strange arrangement, and it's hardly surprising people don't understand it.)

From a practical point of view, the rules you must obey when flying IFR are:

- You must fly the correct quadrantal levels if above the transition altitude

- You must be 1000' higher than the tallest object within 5nm, unless you are below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface

If you stay below 3000' and within the privileges of your PPL, neither of these apply to you, and there is no practical difference between IFR and VFR.

FFF
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Very true, but restrictions may apply to aircraft on foreign registrations. (I mention this because worldpilots location is given as Germany).

Irish registered aircraft for example can only be flown under IFR by the holder of an instrument rating (even in VMC).

dp

What has 3000' got to do with with being VFR?

(I'm in Canada btw)

The original question, which everyone seems to have misread is if VFR at night is permitted in the U.K. with the next response and others going off into IFR/IMC discussions :confused:

Mike

No, the respondents haven't gone off on a tangent. They're addressing a rather unique foible of the UK's IFR/VFR vs the rating needed to use such rules.

In the UK you DO NOT need an IR to fly under IFR in Class G airspace. Note I said IFR, *not* IMC.

This leads to the case where a non-instrument rated pilot can fly at night I.A.W. IFR as long as VMC is maintained and the flight remains in the appropriate category of airspace. Hence the various references to the UK's IFR requirements.

Further, Night VFR is not permitted although 'Special VFR' at night is. 'Special VFR' is only available within CTA ie it's an ATC authorised set of flight rules.

What about the "3,000 feet". Is all airspace above 3,000 controlled?

So if flying IFR at night in VMC, do you need to be talking to ATC / flying a flightplan / ?

And finally if an IR rating is not required to fly IFR, then that means a non IR rated pilot can fly an instrument approach (in VMC)... theoretically with no training ? :eek:

Mike

Actually I think the whole UK thing is a mess which works only because some things are not enforced.

Look at single engine helicopters. Almost none of these are certified for IFR, but they can fly at night. How does this work? The reality is that nobody really cares whether you are under VFR or under IFR, at night. Everybody sort of assumes it is VFR.

There is the old nut of privileges of a foreign license which carries a night privilege but which is not allowed to fly under IFR unless an IR it attached, e.g. the FAA one. This one has never been settled, although I believe a number of people have asked the FAA and they were not bothered; this view would have been relevant in an N-reg but who knows about a G-reg flown on an FAA PPL?

It's a mess, but there is no evidence that the CAA has ever bothered to untangle it. They just pretend it doesn't matter.

And I do know the difference between VMC, IMC, VFR, IFR.

Presumably, in the UK, you can fly IFR in a microlight! Just fly quadrantals above the transition altitude and keep 1,000' vertically from any obstruction within 5NM. How can any aircraft need to be certified for that?

TheOddOne

Not so. Any civilian ATCO will treat any flight, outside a CTZ, at night as IFR and will separate accordingly. Unless the traffic asks for a service that does not require separation ( FIS,RIS).

New can of worms opened:rolleyes:

Sorry Mstram - I thought my post was clear enough, but obviously not, so I'll try to make it as clear as I can.

At night, in the UK, you must be IFR, even if you are flying "visually" (except in control zones where you may be Special VFR).

Understand that both VFR and IFR are a set of rules. That's what the 'R' stands for. So when you are forced, by the UK's strange prohibition on flying VFR at night, to fly IFR, there are a couple of differences in the rules you must obey.

Outside controlled airspace, VFR is defined by Rule 26 of the ANO. Rule 26 defines the in-flight visibility and clearance from cloud which is required to comply with VFR.

When you are IFR, Rule 26 no longer applies, but you are still bound by rules attached to your license to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (in other words, VMC). But Rule 29 and Rule 30 apply instead, since these make up IFR outside controlled airspace.

Rule 29 is the IFR "Minimum Height" rule, but it doesn't apply if you are below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. Since you will already be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (your license says you must be), if you are below 3000' you can ignore rule 29.

Rule 30 is the Quadrantal and Semi Circular rule. This doesn't apply if you are below 3000' or the transition altitude, whichever is higher. So, once again, you can ignore it if you are below 3000'.

That's why I said, in my earlier post:
Mstram - the discussion is actually (despite Worldpilot's repeated use of the word "VFR") about visual flight. This can (in the UK) be either VFR or IFR during the day, but must be IFR at night. You asked:
No, airspace above 3000' is not controlled, it's just that Rule 29, and possibly Rule 30, apply. Because it's not controlled, there is no requirement to talk to ATC, nor to file a flightplan if you don't meet any other requirements for filing a flight plan. (The subject of flight plans and IFR flights in the UK is relevant here, but is a completely different subject and I don't want to go off on a tangent!)

Hope that clears up the rather strange UK night-flying rules?


Toadpool, what service are you thinking of? Outside controlled airspace, ATC will not offer you any separation whether you are VFR or IFR, unless you ask for a RAS (in which case they will assume you are IFR). So it makes no difference to them which flight rules you are following. The only possible exception I can think of - and I'm not sure about this one - is whether there is a requirement for ATC at a Class G airport to separate IFR departures (and hence, at night, all departures) from each other?

However, if you really wanted to pick on IO540's statement that "nobody really cares whether you are under VFR or under IFR, at night. Everybody sort of assumes it is VFR", then you could point out that, inside a control zone, ATC will give you a Special VFR clearance, and that this involves different treatment to the VFR clearance you would receive during the day because Special VFR flights must receive separation whilst inside the control zone.

FFF
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Thanks for the great summary ... saved in my archive :)

I assume that's 3000' agl ?

Mike

I think the above explanation (which I don't dispute for a moment) demonstrates what a mess the rules are.

FWIW, in days before I had any understanding of this (nobody told me during my UK PPL/night training that night=IFR) I have departed from major UK airports, asking for a "VFR departure to XXX" and nobody said a word. Either ATC didn't know the rules either, or they knew them and were just being kind.

I think that if you lined up 100 UK instructors and asked them about ANO article 26 or whatever, 90 of them would say they have never heard of it.

My experience of hanging around the flying scene for a few years is that almost nobody has any understanding of these rules. People just go and fly. Those with a plain PPL+night know they are supposed to keep out of cloud, and those with an IMCR/IR know they don't have to.

Same with the stuff about the 3000ft transition altitude. In practice nobody in the ATC world seems to give a damn about this 3000ft figure, day or night. Occassionally, when getting an RIS, one is asked to adjust from 5000ft to FL050. And, when OCAS, you can be non-radio so it matters even less where you are.

FFF,
RAS is the service I was thinking of, as an aircraft receiving this service would have to be separated from any other known traffic, even if this other traffic was receiving a FIS or RIS, as they would all be IFR.
As to your other point, yes, an airfield in class g is required to separate IFR departures until such a point as this traffic has left the ATZ, and declares that they no longer require a service from that unit.

an airfield in class g is required to separate IFR departures until such a point as this traffic has left the ATZ, and declares that they no longer require a service from that unit

That would put a bit of a damper, to say the least, on the manic night training that takes place at certain UK Class G airports, between the start of official night and the airport closing time ;)

But isn't it is these rules that give us in the UK flexibility and freedom - being able to fly at night with nothing more than a night rating is surely a great privilege. Surely we don't want to get into a situation where you have to have an IMC rating/IR just to fly VMC at night? Being able to fly at night in VMC subject to the restrictions of your licence but only having to obey two IFR rules is I would suggest an elegant way of giving PPL holders 24 hour flying outside CAS.

As for instructors - if what you state is correct then no wonder the CAA/EASA are keen on imposing more regulatons and restrictions - if we as a community cannot act professionally then we will have decisions and freedoms taken away from us.

It is.

But the same flexibility and freedom, with far less confusion, could be accomplished by:

1) Allowing VFR at night, and
2) Banning IFR without an IR or an IMC rating.

since these are the two areas which aren't logical, and quite understandably confuse almost everyone.

FFF
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Surely we don't want to get into a situation where you have to have an IMC rating/IR just to fly VMC at night?

Personally, as a PPL/NR holder, I dont think that this is a bad idea.

Flying at night, without at least basic competence and currency on instruments is, IMHO, foolhardy.

And I speak from personal experience.

This is one of those topics which has so many grey areas. But one that is not grey is that there is no VFR at night! Pilots who request a VFR departure at night on too many occassions show this lack of understanding. Who's fault is this?
It would be so much easier if VFR at night was permitted i some form. If only for litigation reasons!

Reduced separation in the vicinity is a very useful tool! :}

I do agree that one should not be doing "real" night flight (by that I mean flying when it is actually dark ;) ) unless fully instrument capable, in terms of both aircraft control and navigation.

Assuming night=darkness, there won't be a horizon so how can a plain PPL do it??? There also won't be anything visible on the ground (except the occassional potentially grossly misleading lights) so how can he navigate with a map and compass?

When I did the CAA night rating, both me and the instructor got lost, by something like 20 miles. He was a very seasoned ATPL, too. Then we either did a VOR/DME fix, or I got the GPS out; I can't recall which but I do recall the instructor using that incident, entirely correctly, as a lesson that it's dead easy to get lost at night. And by that time I was instrument capable (though not yet legalised).

Not to argue for stricter controls in this already grotesquely over-regulated area of human activity, but this is a really weird bit of the PPL training system. Fortunately, I guess, most people are smart enough to realise the problem and not many do fly at night. Most GA airfields being closed doesn't help.

I still don't understand how the night=IFR bit is reconciled with all those non IFR certified planes/helis flying around at night. Is there some ANO exemption for them all, requiring them to maintain VMC?

By that I mean flying when it is actually dark

Exactly, it's one matter to arrive a few minutes after official night and another to set off on a x-country armed with the mk1 eyeball and a stopwatch.

mstram wrote
No its 3000' amsl (ie altitude not height)

Brooklands

So....

Can an IMC rating holder fly at night without a NQ?
Can I fly at night with my FAA ticket, bearing in mind I also hold an IMCr but no NQ and also an FAA IR?

I was once going to do the NQ, but the place wanted 5 hours JAR Night, even though I had more than 20 hours of night in my logbook - so I thought I'd save my money.

Why??

The night rating course covers how to navigate in the dark, a little brief but does.

The tiny bit of time under the hood during PPL training should be enough to tell you how to read the AI to see if you are plumeting to death.

But then my questions stem from some slight differences between my training and a friends (and we used the same school)

I had VOR operation drummed in to me after i finished doing solo circuits
I had alot of under the hood work after my x-countries (including PFL's)

Can an IMC rating holder fly at night without a NQ?

No, the IMCR and the NR/NQ are separate.

Can I fly at night with my FAA ticket, bearing in mind I also hold an IMCr but no NQ and also an FAA IR?

I assume you mean in a G-reg. Your FAA PPL/IR gives you worldwide VFR privileges in that, plus IFR privileges OCAS. Your FAA PPL includes night privileges but the FARs require an IR for IFR, which you have, so the answer must be an unqualified YES if OCAS, and a qualified YES (which takes us back to that other chestnut) if in Class D.

I can't imagine any context in which having an IMCR would allow you to fly at night but not having it would not.

The night rating course covers how to navigate in the dark, a little brief but does.

What does it teach? It was dead reckoning when i was doing it. One gets no extra instrument nav during the NQ.

The tiny bit of time under the hood during PPL training should be enough to tell you how to read the AI to see if you are plumeting to death

Which is going to be really useful :)

IO540 said:

I still don't understand how the night=IFR bit is reconciled with all those non IFR certified planes/helis flying around at night.

Presumably the same way when they're flying around UK-style IFR during the day?

It seems the rest of the world interprets the term Instrument Flight Rules to mean plunging about in cloud using Instruments to find your way. We interpret it to mean keeping our distance from fixed objects and each other, but quite possibly being able to see out perfectly well.

It's a funny old game.

The OddOne

I think it is fairly usefull (obviously referencing it with my ASI and Alt):rolleyes:

One of the comments in this thread said something about no horizon at night. That is why I made my comment about using the AI.

I do however agree that the NQ nav training is based around dead reckoning. But we have all passed our nav exam and know how to naviagte right:ok: .

At night you can see major lit roads. You can see major towns ( i would not use the pee hole in the snow towns). You can see large bodies of water. So you whould be able to navigate visualy at night all be it a little harder to plan. How ever if the weather and Vis is pants then I would not advise night flying without an instrument qualification.

night odyssey
 

On the subject of (legal) night flying the nights are really drawing in now and those of us who can fly at night can experience the wonderful privilege of night flight - my 76 year old dad and I did Toulouse Blagnac to Plymouth in 2.8h on Saturday night, IFR (but really night VMC in the silkiest air you will ever find at FL100). Night takeoff and night landing.
Plymouth ATC (great guys) were open late for us (landed 10.10 lcl) then flew home by helicopter. What a beautiful night - we could navigate by the stars, full moon etc...
almost made me want to buy that book by Antoine St Exupery....
We could see Bournemouth from overhead Dinard at FL100 (excess of 100miles vis) and every other aircraft in the sky for miles - definitely didn't need the TCAS that night.

Maybe Winter isn't so bad after all.. (so long as the engine doesn't quit in the dark!!)

SB

Perhaps I'm a little thick - I blame it on being a Swede transplanted to England. But what I don't understand is this:

If all night flying in England is to be done as IFR and with a proper flight plan (which is fine - I understand it can be either VMC or IMC conditions), wouldn't you need an instrument rating to comply with IFR flying?

If so, then what's the bl**dy use of having a Night Rating/NQ-thing at all?

Sorry, don't get it.

AdamF

You really only need to read the posts again - from the start.

Put simply again:

In the UK you CAN fly IFR without and IR or IMCR in VMC.

IFR does not mean you ARE in IMC.

You CANNOT fly in IMC (day or night) without an IR or IMCR.

So you CAN fly at night IFR in VMC without an IR or IMCR.

You CANNOT fly at night in IMC WITHOUT an IR or IMCR.

AT night regardless of the met conditions (VMC or IMC) you ARE IFR.

Thank you Fuji for clearing it up.

What is a bit illogical and might be confusing is that in most countries flying IFR (and filing an IFR flightplan), regardless of weather conditions, needs an instrument rating. It is a bit strange to allow a pilot with very little intsrument experience to fly in conditions where they are expected to navigate solely by instruments. The fact that it might be CAVOK and fully VMC out there at night is purely incidental - if you're not allowed to have any visual references, then what's the difference between doing it in IMC?

if you're not allowed to have any visual references, then what's the difference between doing it in IMC?

That's a very good question, and I think that if all the rules were being drawn up again from scratch, night flight would indeed require an instrument qualification.

But, in this incredibly tightly regulated business, over-regulated in most areas, one should never argue for additional regulation.

IFR is not the same as "navigation solely by instruments", nor is it the same as not having any visual reference. Instrument Flight Rules offer a mechanism other than the visual one for separation from obstacles (through minimum altitude rules) and from other aircraft (through ATC or cruising level rules). Night navigation is often carried out visually, while still adhering to the IFR.

Going by my limited experience, you'd be suprised just how much you can see at night. Visual navigation is in many ways easier as the cardinal features like roads and towns are readily identifiable, in fact it is like the world has shrunk, distant towns can seem very close, that is one factor that does require some adjustment. The instruments are obviously useful, but particuarly so just after rotation as there is little else to judge by at that point. Luckily due to the cooling air, cloud tends to clear up and night unless a front it passing through so the horizon is usually clearly visible too. The NQ is more a matter of adjustment and familiarisation than anything else.

AF

No problem - hope that helped.



I think the point IO was making is that if the regulators were passing judgement on IFR at night with or without an IR they would find firmly in favor of WITH an IR.

Fortunately our forebears were more wise. Indeed, in the "right" conditions visual flying at night is better than during the day!

AdamF,

I suggest you have a read of the post I made on this thread on 7th October.

Two specific points, to add to what others have already said in their replies to you:

- There is no requirement to file a flight plan when flying IFR outside controlled airspace in the UK.

- There is nothing which says "you're not allowed to have any visual references" when flying IFR, in any country, day or night.

FFF
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I did my first solo night nav in July 1974 during Grocer Heath's 3-day week/power cuts - and all the towns had their lights out! Flying a triangular navigation exercise across blackest East Anglia in one of HM's Jet Provosts with only Eureka 7 and one UHF radio meant one flew IAS, heading and time extremely carefully!

I had an 'Advanced Instrument Flying Grading' ticket - but no IR until 2 weeks later. I recall it being all rather boring.








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GColyer

Why??

How many P1 hours do you have at night?

I think if you read his post you would see that he said:

<How ever if the weather and Vis is pants then I would not advise night flying without an instrument qualification.>