VFR Flight at night not permitted in the UK??

[worldpilot]

I read the following in the VFR-Guide for UK just released.

"VFR Flight is not permitted in any UK airspace at night. Night is defined as the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise, sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level."

I don't get it. If VFR isn't permitted at night in the UK, then there is no need to get the night rating though. I'm wondering if this is just a mistake.

Anyone flying VFR at night in the UK? Hey hey.

WP

[Nipper2]

As usual, confusion between IFR and IMC.

IFR is Instrument Flight Rules - these dictate how far you have to be from the lumps in the ground, what instruments you need to have and various other things. IMC refers to what you can (or cannnot) see out of the window.

It is perfectly possible to fly IFR in perfect VMC (Visual Metorological Conditions).

[Saab Dastard]

Flight at night in the UK must be in accordance with IFR (or special VFR if in a control zone).

SD

[FlyingForFun]

Flight at night in the UK must be in accordance with IFR (or special VFR if in a control zone).

Correct, as is Nipper2's post.

You do not need an IMC rating or IR to fly IFR in the UK (at night or any other time). However, if you don't have one of those ratings, you must not fly in IMC. (The UK is quite unusual in having this strange arrangement, and it's hardly surprising people don't understand it.)

From a practical point of view, the rules you must obey when flying IFR are:

- You must fly the correct quadrantal levels if above the transition altitude

- You must be 1000' higher than the tallest object within 5nm, unless you are below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface

If you stay below 3000' and within the privileges of your PPL, neither of these apply to you, and there is no practical difference between IFR and VFR.

FFF
-----------------

[dublinpilot]

You do not need an IMC rating or IR to fly IFR in the UK (at night or any other time). However, if you don't have one of those ratings, you must not fly in IMC.

Very true, but restrictions may apply to aircraft on foreign registrations. (I mention this because worldpilots location is given as Germany).

Irish registered aircraft for example can only be flown under IFR by the holder of an instrument rating (even in VMC).

dp

[mstram]

Originally Posted by FlyingForFun

If you stay below 3000' and within the privileges of your PPL, neither of these apply to you, and there is no practical difference between IFR and VFR.
FFF

What has 3000' got to do with with being VFR?

(I'm in Canada btw)

The original question, which everyone seems to have misread is if VFR at night is permitted in the U.K. with the next response and others going off into IFR/IMC discussions

Mike

[Tinstaafl]

No, the respondents haven't gone off on a tangent. They're addressing a rather unique foible of the UK's IFR/VFR vs the rating needed to use such rules.

In the UK you DO NOT need an IR to fly under IFR in Class G airspace. Note I said IFR, *not* IMC.

This leads to the case where a non-instrument rated pilot can fly at night I.A.W. IFR as long as VMC is maintained and the flight remains in the appropriate category of airspace. Hence the various references to the UK's IFR requirements.

Further, Night VFR is not permitted although 'Special VFR' at night is. 'Special VFR' is only available within CTA ie it's an ATC authorised set of flight rules.

[mstram]

Originally Posted by Tinstaafl

No, the respondents haven't gone off on a tangent. They're addressing a rather unique foible of the UK's IFR/VFR vs the rating needed to use such rules.
In the UK you DO NOT need an IR to fly under IFR in Class G airspace. Note I said IFR, *not* IMC.
This leads to the case where a non-instrument rated pilot can fly at night I.A.W. IFR as long as VMC is maintained and the flight remains in the appropriate category of airspace. Hence the various references to the UK's IFR requirements.
Further, Night VFR is not permitted although 'Special VFR' at night is. 'Special VFR' is only available within CTA ie it's an ATC authorised set of flight rules.

What about the "3,000 feet". Is all airspace above 3,000 controlled?

So if flying IFR at night in VMC, do you need to be talking to ATC / flying a flightplan / ?

And finally if an IR rating is not required to fly IFR, then that means a non IR rated pilot can fly an instrument approach (in VMC)... theoretically with no training ?

Mike

[IO540]

Actually I think the whole UK thing is a mess which works only because some things are not enforced.

Look at single engine helicopters. Almost none of these are certified for IFR, but they can fly at night. How does this work? The reality is that nobody really cares whether you are under VFR or under IFR, at night. Everybody sort of assumes it is VFR.

There is the old nut of privileges of a foreign license which carries a night privilege but which is not allowed to fly under IFR unless an IR it attached, e.g. the FAA one. This one has never been settled, although I believe a number of people have asked the FAA and they were not bothered; this view would have been relevant in an N-reg but who knows about a G-reg flown on an FAA PPL?

It's a mess, but there is no evidence that the CAA has ever bothered to untangle it. They just pretend it doesn't matter.

And I do know the difference between VMC, IMC, VFR, IFR.

[TheOddOne]

Originally Posted by IO540

Actually I think the whole UK thing is a mess which works only because some things are not enforced.

Look at single engine helicopters. Almost none of these are certified for IFR, And I do know the difference between VMC, IMC, VFR, IFR.

Presumably, in the UK, you can fly IFR in a microlight! Just fly quadrantals above the transition altitude and keep 1,000' vertically from any obstruction within 5NM. How can any aircraft need to be certified for that?

TheOddOne

[Toadpool]

Originally Posted by IO540

The reality is that nobody really cares whether you are under VFR or under IFR, at night. Everybody sort of assumes it is VFR.

Not so. Any civilian ATCO will treat any flight, outside a CTZ, at night as IFR and will separate accordingly. Unless the traffic asks for a service that does not require separation ( FIS,RIS).

New can of worms opened

[FlyingForFun]

What has 3000' got to do with with being VFR?

What about the "3,000 feet". Is all airspace above 3,000 controlled?

Sorry Mstram - I thought my post was clear enough, but obviously not, so I'll try to make it as clear as I can.

At night, in the UK, you must be IFR, even if you are flying "visually" (except in control zones where you may be Special VFR).

Understand that both VFR and IFR are a set of rules. That's what the 'R' stands for. So when you are forced, by the UK's strange prohibition on flying VFR at night, to fly IFR, there are a couple of differences in the rules you must obey.

Outside controlled airspace, VFR is defined by Rule 26 of the ANO. Rule 26 defines the in-flight visibility and clearance from cloud which is required to comply with VFR.

When you are IFR, Rule 26 no longer applies, but you are still bound by rules attached to your license to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (in other words, VMC). But Rule 29 and Rule 30 apply instead, since these make up IFR outside controlled airspace.

Rule 29 is the IFR "Minimum Height" rule, but it doesn't apply if you are below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. Since you will already be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (your license says you must be), if you are below 3000' you can ignore rule 29.

Rule 30 is the Quadrantal and Semi Circular rule. This doesn't apply if you are below 3000' or the transition altitude, whichever is higher. So, once again, you can ignore it if you are below 3000'.

That's why I said, in my earlier post:

If you stay below 3000' and within the privileges of your PPL, neither of these apply to you, and there is no practical difference between IFR and VFR

Mstram - the discussion is actually (despite Worldpilot's repeated use of the word "VFR") about visual flight. This can (in the UK) be either VFR or IFR during the day, but must be IFR at night. You asked:

What about the "3,000 feet". Is all airspace above 3,000 controlled?

So if flying IFR at night in VMC, do you need to be talking to ATC / flying a flightplan / ?

No, airspace above 3000' is not controlled, it's just that Rule 29, and possibly Rule 30, apply. Because it's not controlled, there is no requirement to talk to ATC, nor to file a flightplan if you don't meet any other requirements for filing a flight plan. (The subject of flight plans and IFR flights in the UK is relevant here, but is a completely different subject and I don't want to go off on a tangent!)

Hope that clears up the rather strange UK night-flying rules?


Toadpool, what service are you thinking of? Outside controlled airspace, ATC will not offer you any separation whether you are VFR or IFR, unless you ask for a RAS (in which case they will assume you are IFR). So it makes no difference to them which flight rules you are following. The only possible exception I can think of - and I'm not sure about this one - is whether there is a requirement for ATC at a Class G airport to separate IFR departures (and hence, at night, all departures) from each other?

However, if you really wanted to pick on IO540's statement that "nobody really cares whether you are under VFR or under IFR, at night. Everybody sort of assumes it is VFR", then you could point out that, inside a control zone, ATC will give you a Special VFR clearance, and that this involves different treatment to the VFR clearance you would receive during the day because Special VFR flights must receive separation whilst inside the control zone.

FFF
---------------

[mstram]

Originally Posted by FlyingForFun

Rule 29 is the IFR "Minimum Height" rule, but it doesn't apply if you are below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

Thanks for the great summary ... saved in my archive

I assume that's 3000' agl ?

Mike

[IO540]

I think the above explanation (which I don't dispute for a moment) demonstrates what a mess the rules are.

FWIW, in days before I had any understanding of this (nobody told me during my UK PPL/night training that night=IFR) I have departed from major UK airports, asking for a "VFR departure to XXX" and nobody said a word. Either ATC didn't know the rules either, or they knew them and were just being kind.

I think that if you lined up 100 UK instructors and asked them about ANO article 26 or whatever, 90 of them would say they have never heard of it.

My experience of hanging around the flying scene for a few years is that almost nobody has any understanding of these rules. People just go and fly. Those with a plain PPL+night know they are supposed to keep out of cloud, and those with an IMCR/IR know they don't have to.

Same with the stuff about the 3000ft transition altitude. In practice nobody in the ATC world seems to give a damn about this 3000ft figure, day or night. Occassionally, when getting an RIS, one is asked to adjust from 5000ft to FL050. And, when OCAS, you can be non-radio so it matters even less where you are.

[Toadpool]

FFF,
RAS is the service I was thinking of, as an aircraft receiving this service would have to be separated from any other known traffic, even if this other traffic was receiving a FIS or RIS, as they would all be IFR.
As to your other point, yes, an airfield in class g is required to separate IFR departures until such a point as this traffic has left the ATZ, and declares that they no longer require a service from that unit.

[IO540]

an airfield in class g is required to separate IFR departures until such a point as this traffic has left the ATZ, and declares that they no longer require a service from that unit

That would put a bit of a damper, to say the least, on the manic night training that takes place at certain UK Class G airports, between the start of official night and the airport closing time

[Single Spey]

Originally Posted by IO540

I think the above explanation (which I don't dispute for a moment) demonstrates what a mess the rules are.

I think that if you lined up 100 UK instructors and asked them about ANO article 26 or whatever, 90 of them would say they have never heard of it.

My experience of hanging around the flying scene for a few years is that almost nobody has any understanding of these rules.

But isn't it is these rules that give us in the UK flexibility and freedom - being able to fly at night with nothing more than a night rating is surely a great privilege. Surely we don't want to get into a situation where you have to have an IMC rating/IR just to fly VMC at night? Being able to fly at night in VMC subject to the restrictions of your licence but only having to obey two IFR rules is I would suggest an elegant way of giving PPL holders 24 hour flying outside CAS.

As for instructors - if what you state is correct then no wonder the CAA/EASA are keen on imposing more regulatons and restrictions - if we as a community cannot act professionally then we will have decisions and freedoms taken away from us.

[FlyingForFun]

But isn't it is these rules that give us in the UK flexibility and freedom

It is.

But the same flexibility and freedom, with far less confusion, could be accomplished by:

1) Allowing VFR at night, and
2) Banning IFR without an IR or an IMC rating.

since these are the two areas which aren't logical, and quite understandably confuse almost everyone.

FFF
---------------

[Final 3 Greens]

Surely we don't want to get into a situation where you have to have an IMC rating/IR just to fly VMC at night?

Personally, as a PPL/NR holder, I dont think that this is a bad idea.

Flying at night, without at least basic competence and currency on instruments is, IMHO, foolhardy.

And I speak from personal experience.

[Barnaby the Bear]

This is one of those topics which has so many grey areas. But one that is not grey is that there is no VFR at night! Pilots who request a VFR departure at night on too many occassions show this lack of understanding. Who's fault is this?
It would be so much easier if VFR at night was permitted i some form. If only for litigation reasons!

Reduced separation in the vicinity is a very useful tool!