I do agree that one should not be doing "real" night flight (by that I mean flying when it is actually dark ;) ) unless fully instrument capable, in terms of both aircraft control and navigation.

Assuming night=darkness, there won't be a horizon so how can a plain PPL do it??? There also won't be anything visible on the ground (except the occassional potentially grossly misleading lights) so how can he navigate with a map and compass?

When I did the CAA night rating, both me and the instructor got lost, by something like 20 miles. He was a very seasoned ATPL, too. Then we either did a VOR/DME fix, or I got the GPS out; I can't recall which but I do recall the instructor using that incident, entirely correctly, as a lesson that it's dead easy to get lost at night. And by that time I was instrument capable (though not yet legalised).

Not to argue for stricter controls in this already grotesquely over-regulated area of human activity, but this is a really weird bit of the PPL training system. Fortunately, I guess, most people are smart enough to realise the problem and not many do fly at night. Most GA airfields being closed doesn't help.

I still don't understand how the night=IFR bit is reconciled with all those non IFR certified planes/helis flying around at night. Is there some ANO exemption for them all, requiring them to maintain VMC?

By that I mean flying when it is actually dark

Exactly, it's one matter to arrive a few minutes after official night and another to set off on a x-country armed with the mk1 eyeball and a stopwatch.

mstram wrote
No its 3000' amsl (ie altitude not height)

Brooklands

So....

Can an IMC rating holder fly at night without a NQ?
Can I fly at night with my FAA ticket, bearing in mind I also hold an IMCr but no NQ and also an FAA IR?

I was once going to do the NQ, but the place wanted 5 hours JAR Night, even though I had more than 20 hours of night in my logbook - so I thought I'd save my money.

Why??

The night rating course covers how to navigate in the dark, a little brief but does.

The tiny bit of time under the hood during PPL training should be enough to tell you how to read the AI to see if you are plumeting to death.

But then my questions stem from some slight differences between my training and a friends (and we used the same school)

I had VOR operation drummed in to me after i finished doing solo circuits
I had alot of under the hood work after my x-countries (including PFL's)

Can an IMC rating holder fly at night without a NQ?

No, the IMCR and the NR/NQ are separate.

Can I fly at night with my FAA ticket, bearing in mind I also hold an IMCr but no NQ and also an FAA IR?

I assume you mean in a G-reg. Your FAA PPL/IR gives you worldwide VFR privileges in that, plus IFR privileges OCAS. Your FAA PPL includes night privileges but the FARs require an IR for IFR, which you have, so the answer must be an unqualified YES if OCAS, and a qualified YES (which takes us back to that other chestnut) if in Class D.

I can't imagine any context in which having an IMCR would allow you to fly at night but not having it would not.

The night rating course covers how to navigate in the dark, a little brief but does.

What does it teach? It was dead reckoning when i was doing it. One gets no extra instrument nav during the NQ.

The tiny bit of time under the hood during PPL training should be enough to tell you how to read the AI to see if you are plumeting to death

Which is going to be really useful :)

IO540 said:

I still don't understand how the night=IFR bit is reconciled with all those non IFR certified planes/helis flying around at night.

Presumably the same way when they're flying around UK-style IFR during the day?

It seems the rest of the world interprets the term Instrument Flight Rules to mean plunging about in cloud using Instruments to find your way. We interpret it to mean keeping our distance from fixed objects and each other, but quite possibly being able to see out perfectly well.

It's a funny old game.

The OddOne

I think it is fairly usefull (obviously referencing it with my ASI and Alt):rolleyes:

One of the comments in this thread said something about no horizon at night. That is why I made my comment about using the AI.

I do however agree that the NQ nav training is based around dead reckoning. But we have all passed our nav exam and know how to naviagte right:ok: .

At night you can see major lit roads. You can see major towns ( i would not use the pee hole in the snow towns). You can see large bodies of water. So you whould be able to navigate visualy at night all be it a little harder to plan. How ever if the weather and Vis is pants then I would not advise night flying without an instrument qualification.

night odyssey
 

On the subject of (legal) night flying the nights are really drawing in now and those of us who can fly at night can experience the wonderful privilege of night flight - my 76 year old dad and I did Toulouse Blagnac to Plymouth in 2.8h on Saturday night, IFR (but really night VMC in the silkiest air you will ever find at FL100). Night takeoff and night landing.
Plymouth ATC (great guys) were open late for us (landed 10.10 lcl) then flew home by helicopter. What a beautiful night - we could navigate by the stars, full moon etc...
almost made me want to buy that book by Antoine St Exupery....
We could see Bournemouth from overhead Dinard at FL100 (excess of 100miles vis) and every other aircraft in the sky for miles - definitely didn't need the TCAS that night.

Maybe Winter isn't so bad after all.. (so long as the engine doesn't quit in the dark!!)

SB

Perhaps I'm a little thick - I blame it on being a Swede transplanted to England. But what I don't understand is this:

If all night flying in England is to be done as IFR and with a proper flight plan (which is fine - I understand it can be either VMC or IMC conditions), wouldn't you need an instrument rating to comply with IFR flying?

If so, then what's the bl**dy use of having a Night Rating/NQ-thing at all?

Sorry, don't get it.

AdamF

You really only need to read the posts again - from the start.

Put simply again:

In the UK you CAN fly IFR without and IR or IMCR in VMC.

IFR does not mean you ARE in IMC.

You CANNOT fly in IMC (day or night) without an IR or IMCR.

So you CAN fly at night IFR in VMC without an IR or IMCR.

You CANNOT fly at night in IMC WITHOUT an IR or IMCR.

AT night regardless of the met conditions (VMC or IMC) you ARE IFR.

Thank you Fuji for clearing it up.

What is a bit illogical and might be confusing is that in most countries flying IFR (and filing an IFR flightplan), regardless of weather conditions, needs an instrument rating. It is a bit strange to allow a pilot with very little intsrument experience to fly in conditions where they are expected to navigate solely by instruments. The fact that it might be CAVOK and fully VMC out there at night is purely incidental - if you're not allowed to have any visual references, then what's the difference between doing it in IMC?

if you're not allowed to have any visual references, then what's the difference between doing it in IMC?

That's a very good question, and I think that if all the rules were being drawn up again from scratch, night flight would indeed require an instrument qualification.

But, in this incredibly tightly regulated business, over-regulated in most areas, one should never argue for additional regulation.

IFR is not the same as "navigation solely by instruments", nor is it the same as not having any visual reference. Instrument Flight Rules offer a mechanism other than the visual one for separation from obstacles (through minimum altitude rules) and from other aircraft (through ATC or cruising level rules). Night navigation is often carried out visually, while still adhering to the IFR.

Going by my limited experience, you'd be suprised just how much you can see at night. Visual navigation is in many ways easier as the cardinal features like roads and towns are readily identifiable, in fact it is like the world has shrunk, distant towns can seem very close, that is one factor that does require some adjustment. The instruments are obviously useful, but particuarly so just after rotation as there is little else to judge by at that point. Luckily due to the cooling air, cloud tends to clear up and night unless a front it passing through so the horizon is usually clearly visible too. The NQ is more a matter of adjustment and familiarisation than anything else.

AF

No problem - hope that helped.



I think the point IO was making is that if the regulators were passing judgement on IFR at night with or without an IR they would find firmly in favor of WITH an IR.

Fortunately our forebears were more wise. Indeed, in the "right" conditions visual flying at night is better than during the day!

AdamF,

I suggest you have a read of the post I made on this thread on 7th October.

Two specific points, to add to what others have already said in their replies to you:

- There is no requirement to file a flight plan when flying IFR outside controlled airspace in the UK.

- There is nothing which says "you're not allowed to have any visual references" when flying IFR, in any country, day or night.

FFF
----------------

I did my first solo night nav in July 1974 during Grocer Heath's 3-day week/power cuts - and all the towns had their lights out! Flying a triangular navigation exercise across blackest East Anglia in one of HM's Jet Provosts with only Eureka 7 and one UHF radio meant one flew IAS, heading and time extremely carefully!

I had an 'Advanced Instrument Flying Grading' ticket - but no IR until 2 weeks later. I recall it being all rather boring.








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GColyer

Why??

How many P1 hours do you have at night?

I think if you read his post you would see that he said:

<How ever if the weather and Vis is pants then I would not advise night flying without an instrument qualification.>