Aerobatic Experience
 

Today I was planning to make use of the long weekend for some XC flying for no better reason than to do some flying.

Turned up at the school/club to find that aerobatics were on offer in 30min sessions. I signed up straight away.

A fantastic experience that I'd recommend to everyone. First time I've ever worn a parachute, followed by 60 seconds of induction training in use of said parachute :E

Up and away in a Slingsby Firefly 260. Incredible performance compared to a PA28 / DiamondStar / C172. I had control for the easiest 60 degree turns to get things started. Then loop the loop twice before I get to take control. Incredible fun and a real feel of the Gs (+3, -1.5). :O :O :O :O :O

On to aileron rolls. Oh dear. I didn't like these at all. Great to fly but they caused my ears and stomach to disengage :yuk: and it was time for some straight and level. A couple of minutes to recover then back into a few more steep level turns - so much easier in this aircraft.

Next onto a spin. I still wasn't feeling 100% but wanted to see what a spin was like, for future reference of course. So off we went. We didn't turn as fast as expected and I followed through on the controls. By now I was going green so didn't want to recover from one on my own and our time was almost up so we headed back to the field.

Although it made my head spin (literally) it was an amazing experience and one I'd recommed to anyone here who hasn't given it a try. I'm looking forwards to doing this again later in the summer and to try a spin recovery, another loop and perhaps a barrel roll. :ok:

I believe every word you say. I started flying because of an addiction caused by having 2 half hour aerobatic trial lessons, before joining the flying club and 2 half hour sessions as soon as I joined the club.

Even asked the aero's instructor if he'd ever had an aero's student who didn't know how to fly ('cos I couldn't...then). Obviously his answer was "no". So asked if he wanted one - obviously answer was "yes".

We then proceeded to have two 35 minute sessions of PPL lessons 4 -10 (not to the same level of proficiency as PPL) so that I could understand the 'planes controls - even landed the plane!*!*!

Luckily, my instructor is qualified to teach both.... - started PPL - therefore, I don't even have to switch instructors.

Only problem I've had is that, said instructor, is an extremely laid back grown up little boy with aero's (quite playful - flips in the "odd" Humpty bump to try and throw you - but it doesn't scare me!!!), but he's a strict examiner type in Flat.

Caused us to butt heads a bit at the beginning 'cos he didn't think I was serious about learning to fly when I was always cracking jokes but I think he's starting to understand me better now.

Have since been hooked to any and all types of flying in whatever plane is available whether right way up or upside down - only 14 1/2 hours in the bag (3 are aeros).

If weather ok next weekend I'm due to have a 2 hour session of Flat (circuits) and a 2 hour session of "Spinning" - parachutes, 10,000ft and throw ourselves at the ground.

Wonder which you think I'm most looking forward too???

Ain't life great???? :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

I have done aeros once and loved every min of it. I always remember the grin factor afterwards lasted for ages.

Check out this post and the pictures in the contained link........

BRL / Mad Girl

Great comments, and BRL, your thread starter matches mine quite well, yes I'm still grinning.

The loop was fantastic. 130kts, pull back the stick and aim for the sun. Higher and higher into the deep blue sky. Blue is all I see. Feel the G in my belly. Airspeed plummeting towards zero. AI to keep level. Then all of a sudden clouds appear at the top of my field of vision, then green fields and before I know it I'm heading straight down. Keep pulling back on the stick. Airspeed shooting upwards. Feel the G again. Fantastic. Shall we do it again?

I can do aileron rolls now - left & right.
My loop got a "Bloody good loop" from my instructor - strong praise indeed (over a month ago and still remember as if it was yesterday)!!!
Barrell rolls need improvement.
Wingovers are simply to explain but hard as hell to do with precision.

May be doing Stall turns next (after the spins - PPL). (vertically up, sideways roll in the vertical axis - lots of rudder and opposite aileron and vertically towards the ground).

My original adrenaline high lasted 4 days - any wonder I'm hooked???

Strongly suggest you go again and get them to do Stall turns and Humpty bumps (this is a vertically up and "over the top" of a loop before coming vertically down - lots of negative "G" - but great fun).

Depending how well you fly (me - badly!!) - getting them to do it is almost more fun, as they can control the plane and you just get the rush.

Had my first aeros experience with me at the helm this week,with none other than Tom Cassells in the RHS! All part of the aerobatic scholarship mentioned on these very pages.

I had done some aeros many moons ago as an air cadet in a chippie and a bulldog never at the helm though???

I loved it,the loops,stall turns and cubans I did turned out ok (I thought!)

As mentioned by MyData The spins turned me a slightly different shade! Nice to do though,as the recovery was a lot easier in practice than people make it out to be.

Regardless of what happens with the scholarship,I will be taking up aeros with the intention of competing but also scaring my friends!:}

Best place for aeros
 

hi all

Plan to do weeks course this summer on aerobatics - considering the aopa course as it covers all the basic aerobatic manouvers and then teaches how to string them all together - about 8 hours flying + 8 hours ground school

However open to any suggestions - what I would like to know - is have you recommendations on where to go - currently looking at Kemble and Stapleford

Any suggestions much appreciated

Best cheer

neil

Aeros
 

I suggest that you keen young bunnies get yourselves along to a British Aerobatic Association (BAeA)competition this summer and see what fun you can have.

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/sites/events-info.htm

The BAeA have a list of buddies on their site, too and if you were to contact one before you attended they'd show you around, introduce you to the players and generally explain how things work.

MadGirl - there are several different flavours of humpties; you have described a pull push pull humpty but you can have pull pull pull, pull push push, push pull push, etc, etc!

The secret is not to get too slow at the top - 85/90mph is about right in the Pitts, any slower and it is liable to start torqueing off the top and you'd end up downhill on the wrong heading!

Stik

Exactly stik! Nothing worse than doing a humpty and finding yourself pointing the wrong way.
(reminds me of that story you told me about our friend in AZ)

How do you get into Aero's

Planning to go to Leicester on 17th June and see what it's all about.:)

As for Humpties..... 14 1/2 flying hours ago I hadn't even been in a light aircraft before - sorry!!!:\

3 Aero's hours hasn't given me the chance to learn the differences in techniques as I'm still at the stage where I get ridiculously pleased when I get a compliment from my Aero's (& PPL) instructor.:D :D

One day I'll grow up (43 yr old novice pilot) and be up with you guys but I've got to learn to fly first.

Helpmeplease asked

I'd suggest following the link posted by stiknruda. Then getting in touch with your local airfields / flying schools and asking if or when they might have an aerobatics instructor available. For me I was just in the right place at the right time on Monday, but now I know these things go on I'll keep an eye out and sign up for the next session when it comes around.

I am grateful to stik,who gave me my first experience of aero's last year,we went through most of his competition display procedure plus a spin and luckily I felt OK all the way through,but slightly disoriented the next day!
My next challenge is the tail wheel conversion then I can fly the Cub and Chipmunk.
I think I will try an Aero course at Old Buckenham in the Slingsby sometime in the future, to gain experience of handling aircraft in unusual positions!
Lister:) .

Lister, I'm sure that the disorientation came from the contents of the few bottles we knocked back afterwards:eek: What most newby aerobats find after doing quite a lengthy session is that they can not believe how fatigued they are later that day - however if you consider that most folk spend all their lives "suffering" 1G, a departure from that by as much as 6G (say -1 to +5) is really quite draining. Negative one when inverted straight and level and positive five when they try and pull the wings off during their first 'hands-on' loop.


MadG - you may very well find me at Leicester, PM me if you are going and I'll intro you to the great unwashed. As for the humpty lesson, I certainly wasn't being pedantic - just trying to broaden your knowledge :ok:


Helpmepse - you asked, . The problem really is that once you are into them, it is very hard to get out! :oh: Let me know where you are based and I'll see if I can help.


Stik

Stiknruda

Sent you a PM

Aeros is a great idea. As an instructor in both i find that even at low hours a student can benefit all round in aircraft handling. You can certainly develop a "feel" for the aircraft quicker and so aeros will help in your PPL course. Understanding the aircrafts envelope and not being afraid that it will fall out of the sky if you turn at an AOB of more than 15 degrees has helped several of our more 'nervous' students.
Enjoy guys!
KK:O

Stiknruda

Try your PM again - It's gone this time.

I've also been considering doing some tailwheel & aero flying this summer.

Having spoken to a number of schools, I'm a bit confused whether to go for an AOPA course or a standard courses.

They both seem to fit the bill & (of course) recommend whatever they're offering.

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice please?

Martin

Martin,

AFAIK - the AOPA course is structured to give you so many hours of aeros instruction and during that time you will be demonstrated and then expected to fly the aerobatic building blocks, loops, rolls, stall turns, spins. All aerobatic maneouvers are composed of one or more of these.

At the end of the course you receive an AOPA certificate.

A standard aeros course is just the same as the above but you choose how many hours you want to fly for, once you are competent with the building blocks you have a greater say in which maneouvers you want to fly. You don't get an AOPA certificate. I tend to take aerobatic instruction each year to widen my reportoire and to make sure that I'm not doing anything unsafe.

So I guess that you take your choice!!

There is a vast difference between Sunday afternoon "drilling holes in the sky" and the rigourousness of competition aerobatics. Comp aeros are judged very much like figure skating or dressage - one starts each maneouver with a perfect 10 and each 5 degrees off heading (or vertical, horizontal, 45 up or down, erect or inverted) costs you half a point. A typical sequence has something between 9 and 12 maneouvers once you are no longer a "beginner". Beginners are expected to fly 4 or 5 but all categories are expected to complete the sequence in a square kikometre of airspace. The bottom of the box is 1500' for beginners and 1000' for the next two higher categories, after this at Advanced it comes down to 660'.

MadGirl's aileron rolls and barell rolls DO NOT feature in competition flying. Axial (slow) rolls - which can be really fast - circa: 400degrees/sec with the right machine and flick rolls do feature, though.

It gets worse.... you are expected not only to fly the maneouvers in the correct sequence, you are penalised if you "insert" a maneouver and you receive zero if a maneouver is flown incorrectly or in the wrong direction. So if you fly a half Cuban (S&L, 5/8ths of a loop, inverted down 45, half roll, erect down 45) rather than a half reverse Cuban (up 45, half roll to inverted, 5/8ths ofa loop to S&L) you'll get zero, zip, nada!

If the sequence calls for you to do a vertical half roll on the way up a stall turn and a 1/4 roll on the way down, you'd better be bloody sure which way you need to roll on the down line or you will be 180 degrees out AND everything afterwards will receive a zero. Ie: instead of recovering from the stall turn downwind or away from the judging line, you recover upwind or towards the judges if cross box you have just forfeited your chances of scoring well.

Is it worth it? Oh yes, great fun, improves one's accuracy and a/c handling an awful lot and there are a fun bunch of girls and boys competing currently.

I don't have an AOPA certificate but I do have a bronze medal won at an International comp - and I'm bloody proud of it! :)

Stik

Im on a UAS and during the famil flight we did a loop, (hadn't done aeros previously) I wasnt that keen on it. Then during the next lesson the instructor decides to pull a loop on me without me realising. Absolutly loved it the second time round!!! Still grin to high heaven when I think about it!
Can't wait to try and link some together!! Like I said I haven't done aeros before but the Grob seems a very capable aircraft in this respect!
The g's are nice, but I was wearing a pretty heavy helmet and I decided to look back just as we started to pull into the loop, I couldn't move my head for the whole loop!!!! But still it was a good view!

Worth mentioning that the 'standard' AOPA course is 8 flying hours (and should be more than that on the ground in briefing and debriefing), and you will receive an AOPA certificate as long as you show that you have reached the prescribed standard. This is basically you showing us that you are in a position to go off and fly the aerobatic manoeuvres that you have been taught safely without having an instructor beside you. You will need to fly with an aeros FI to learn new ones though! :)

While I can definately see the attraction of Stik's description of competition aeros, and do not wish to take anything away from that, the artificially limited form of aeros seen in competitions isn't necessarily the be-all-and-end-all of aeros, and I'd like to defend those sunday morning skyhole-borers.

Barrel rolls, rarely seen in competition aeros, can be the amongst the most satisfying (if, admittedly, somewhat basic) manoevres to fly, and are easily within the capabilities of even basic aerobatic mounts. While I can well understand the need for a small aerobatic box for judging competition aerobatics, one of the main attractions of flying to me is the freedom it offers, and I'm not a massive fan of the concept of this imposed restriction.

As has been mentioned before, flying even a few basic manoevres would give many PPL holders more confidence in their aeroplanes, hopefully avoiding the affliction whereby people are scared to use greater then 20 degrees AoB in the circuit, as well as a better feel for the stall boundary.

As I said before, I wouldn't dream of not aknowledging the amazing aerial ballet performed in competition style aeros (indeed, I plan to try my hand at it soon), but I'd also hope that the participants in such also respect aeros performed outside this environment. I have the luxury of flying aeros on a regular basis in a relatively high performance aeroplane as part of my day job, as well as in a variety of powered and unpowered machines in my spare time, and I enjoy each activity in its own right.

Fournicator, very well put. I agree with your sentiments very much.

With regard to the AOPA course, it is often criticised as being a bit pointless, but there is value to both the instructor and student in working to a clear, unambiguous syllabus. If nothing else it sets common expectations.
The AOPA course requires a minumum of 8 hours flight training (plus the competency check) and 8 hours of briefings/lectures. If you might be interested in competing after finishing the course, make that clear to your instructor at the outset and he/she can (if he's got competition experience) tailor the course accordingly. For example, I often use the beginners sequence as an objective of the course and include it in the competency check.

No, the downgrade for each 5 degrees of error is 1 point.

Also no; figures on the B-axis can be flown in either direction without penalty, so in one of the two possibilities in your scenario (i.e. starting the figure on the A-axis), the quarter vertical roll to finish going cross-box can be done left or right.

Have fun.

Fournicator,

I totally agree with you! I love nothing more than strapping some keen bunny (tKf, Lister, countless friends and "neighbours") in the front seat and going off and looping and swooping without a thought to whether my loop was really circular, whether I was +ve on the up line and -ve on the down line or whether I was even near my start point.

It is no secret that I'd rather utilise my DA and do an aerobatic display for Joe and Joanne Public than compete seriously but it would be disingenuous of me to say that my comp background did not give me the confidence to rock up at an airshow and loop at 500'.

Doing comp style aeros has given me the opportunity and reason to go off and practice aerobatics - practice implies that you ought to get better... I can clearly recall the times in the early days that I've flicked out of a botched maneouver and spun and as I got better I can recall when I realised that I was flicking and countered with anti-spin controls so didn't fully flick and didn't let it degrade into a spin.

Helpmepse - I told you that getting into was the easy bit, getting out is the hard part!! I mean the hobby not the airframe.

Fournicator, when you decide to start comp flying do contact me and I'll try to help.


Stik

giloc - our posts crossed and of course you are perfectly right - 5 degrees = 1 point.

The point I was trying to make about subsequent figures on a cross box was over complicated but I'm sure you know exactly what I was alluding to for those with no comp experience.:)

Stik

Downwind stall turn...no penalty....heeeeey...my kind of judges. :ok:

Indeed, there are many reasons why you might prefer to fly a figure cross-box in a specific direction, but avoiding a hard zero for going the 'wrong' way isn't one of them.

giloc (and others),
I don't know if you are aware of a new scheme by the British Aerobatics Assoc. There is a new type of membership available for clubs/instructors. This allows their students to enter a BAeA competition for free and without having to join as individuals. This club membership is the same price as an individual membership.
So, if you provide aerobatic training and would like your students to be able to taste a competition then this is for you.
The beginners competition is perfect for people who have just completed the AOPA course and provides a perfect stepping stone into the world of aerobatics.
More details are at:
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/membership.htm
There is a beginners competition this afternoon at Sleap.

Yes, I am aware of the BAeA Club membership. It's not a bad idea, but it allows free entry at Beginner's level only, while in fact the entry fee for a first Beginners competition is waived anyway. So it's only really an advantage if someone wants to compete at Beginner's multiple times.
Of course, most people that complete the AOPA course are not interested in entering competitions anyway, irrespective of whether or not they have to pay an entry fee to do so.

Out of interest, did anyone read Brian Lecomber's article in Flyer on the Extra 300? If only all magazine flight test pieces were written like that... well, the world wouldn't be a better place but at least we'd get some honest insight :ok:

I was initially sceptic about competition aerobatics, not sure about being watched, all seemed a bit artificial. I was very very wrong. Competition aerobatics provided a structured learning path, and a set of goals that have forced me practise, learn and become a better pilot. I used to aerobat just for fun, and it was not until I had a Spin/unusual attitude lesson with Alan Cassidy. That I learned I did not know as much as I should. Its an all too common phrase "I dont need any training as I am only doing basic aerobatics"
No such thing in my book.
Six years into comp aeros, and I still use lessons learnt from my first trip with Alan while I am training. If you are aerobating without proper spin training, then stop. Loops and stall turns can become erect/inverted spins in a heartbeat, and erect spins can become inverted if misshandled.(Honestly how many weekend aerobatic pilots practice spinning?)
Alan Cassidy, Ultimate high ect run good advanced spinning courses.
Both competition and weekend aerobatics are great great fun, and long shall they continue....but I know which group have had better spin awareness.

All in IMHO of course.

Fournicator,
Whilst the barrel roll may be a simple manouvre to fly, it is also one which is easy to get wrong if you don't have the proper training.
The problem is the last half where the beginner often shows a tendency to stop the roll and try to pull through (or spiral dive) especially if the nose has already passed through the horizon.

The benefit of competition aerobatic training is the high discipline required. Whether you actually compete is a different matter much as you would still be a better swimmer for having a competition swimming coach. All in the technique.

Super write-up indeed, very nicely done. And confirms what existing Extra 300 owners suspected - that a reduction of 30lb in weight is unlikely to make any material difference!

Now, if they had installed a 450hp engine instead...;)

Was not suggesting foe one moment trying to fly aeros without proper training; I come from a very highly regulated background (also one in which both incipient and fully developed erect & inverted spins are practised so much they actually become quite boring), just that such proper training does not have to be for comp style aeros.

While the competitive arena I'm sure provides a suitable incentive for many to develop their skills, this is not the only way to constantly analyse and improve your handling.

By all means do! And do get proficient in spin recoveries if you decide to pursue further aero flying.

How many ways can I spin thee? Let me count the ways... :}

Of course they do.......they just don't know it yet. :)

FCA - correct as ever; bang on, in fact.

Achieved a personal best at Sleap today in terms of timing and physical stamina - in that I managed to sneak in a large helping of Chicken Curry & Chips for lunch in exactly the period between AC setting off to fly the Advanced Known and the Extra brakes being applied afterwards - and hence AC being unable to give me a hard time about the monumentally poor diet choice - but it was a hard slog towards the end....nearly forced to abandon a couple of chips & a spoonfull of curry sauce, but got there with seconds to spare.



The flying went OK as well.....probably down to the curry :)

Well actually, based on my experience of doing dozens of courses over about 20 years, about 5% enter even one competition, despite considerable encouragement from me.
In an effort to lower the barrier to entry a bit more, I understand that LOOP are organising a fly-in at Compton Abbas on 30th June that is to incorporate a Beginner's-only competition, together with coaching and critiquing. See www.loop.aero.

Fabulous thread - lots of good comments and advice in here.

To add my bit for the ab initio's:

1. Do it. - it will make you a safer, confident and more disciplined pilot.
2. Understand the concepts of rolling 'g' and why it is dangerous.
3. In reference to 2 make your pre-flight VERY thorough especially if you're hiring the a/c. You don't know what the previous renter did - eg check for wing skin rippling, or broken ribs if fabric covered.
4. Competitions will hone your flying and mental discipline skills
5. Don't ever attempt to teach yourself basic aeros. Get qualified instruction.

Soapbox mode off. Cleaed for finals.

Totally agree with the Spin comments above.

I'm one of the "sad muppets" who got hooked on flying through aero's trial lessons and had my first "SPIN" session yesterday. (12 1/2 hrs PPL 4 hrs Aeros - so I'm a baby in flying terms!!)

I wasn't particularly concerned about the spins apart from just how disorientated am I going to get (Puking issue - never happened yet!), but was terrified about parachutes and 10,000ft - weird eh??

First 2 demonstrated and it wasn't as bad as I thought - eyes sorted themselves out. According to the "boss" he was teaching me "academic" spins (11B) and recoveries. (stall, incipient spin and recover, full spin and recover, spiral dives and recover).

Actually thoroughly enjoyed myself but was shaking like a leaf afterwards - relief of tension??

When I'm further on in the PPL (i.e. I can generally control the plane better than I can now) he'll take me for an aero's session where we'll have a look at the spins from botched manoeuvres - then hopefully I won't kill myself - or him!!!!