|
Quitting Flying
I read the following article excerpt with interest this weekend. It is from a Sky Watch report and I have deliberately not quoted the authors name. Why is it that so many stop flying when there are so many different ways of staying airborne?
"Apart from folk who go on to Career Flying: 70% of all people who qualify as Private Pilots are no longer flying after TWO YEARS. The rest - apart from a very few - are all out of flying within SIX YEARS. That leaves just 5% which **** classifies as "incurables". Folk who one way or another will be flying until they turn their toes up. They make up the constant core of active private flying in the UK. Expanding on the subject, **** said about 20% of the people who take a trial lesson decide to have flying lessons. Of those, around 65% actually complete the course and become PPL's. Most of the people who don't buy their own aircraft or a share gradually reduce their flying and drop out completely inside a couple of years. The remaining very few who stay as Club flyers will mostly be gone inside five years. Inside 6 years most aircraft owners will have sold their aeroplanes/shares and gone. So, after a six year period, 95% of all people who came into private flying during the same year will be gone". |
I think it's because flying is unusually demanding - there are so may aspects that have to be right before the wheels leave the deck -
Licence A/C documentation A/C condition A/C availability Any Handheld devices charged up Clouds - base - type - forecast etc. Wind - and forecast NOTAMs etc etc Personal availability - must co-incide with all of the above. The last point maybe is the cruncher - how many days ahead do people ordinarily plan? OK if you're IMC and night rated etc, but if you're daytime VFR like me, then lots of mental energy goes in to trying to schedule a flight for when a) I can do it, and b) when the weather is likely to be OK. After lots of missed attempts, I am sure it can seem like hard work. And then when the wheels leave the ground, it is a high-demand pastime.....so I think a lot of people find they are not getting the enjoyment return for the effort expended. And unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast - some people thrive on it, most won't! A |
Does this mean we're the elite or anoraks, or elite anoraks?
Oxymoron?:hmm: |
Single handed Yak starting, December. If I could, I'd give up flying as well. But I'm weak, and it's an addiction.....
|
NO7BCM
I believe that the categories are as follows: Out of 1000 Trial Lessons 200 take Lessons - Kagoul 130 gain PPLs - Elite Kagoul 40 still Flying after 2 Years - Anorak 6 still Flying after 6 Years - Elite Anorak Hope that clears it up. |
Well, I'm in my 22nd year. It must be an illness by then. As you say, planning ahead and getting all the factors lined up is like a planetary conjunction. Still, the rewards (for me) when it all works are all worth while.
Cheers, The Odd One |
I don't think it has much to do with whether flying is demanding or not. Once you have the licence you've probably the ability to cover the demanding bits.
It may well have something to do with the problem of access, whether for weather, booked planes, distance from airfield (I finally suspended my activities in 1971 when I was driving 1.3/4 hours to fly for 50 mins followed by 1 3/4 hour drive back.) Surely has something to do with the cost and commitment to family, GF etc (did for me too.) and a whole lot to do with the lack of help, encouragement, camaraderie, social aspect etc. That surely is the really big change from the pre war and early post war flying clubs. They were also part of a social world, without TV, DVD, etc it people wet off to spend time with like minded friends. That world is now gone and the industry has not adapted or replaced it with anything worth while. Ten pin bowling has largely gone the same way, ad how many villages have Cricket clubs these days? Everybody knows, ( or should) that it cost 10 times as much to get a new customer as it does to retain an old one, so why don't they spend a little on doing just that! The new paradigm of 'Flight Centres" and 'Aviation Schools"doesn't encourage people to continue, they sell you the training and then boot you out into the wide world. Unfortunately most of those who went before have already dicovered how inhostpitable that world is and moved on so there is no supporting social ifrastructuure. Pretty shortsighted. |
How does that compare, I wonder, with any other hobby that people take up - be it ballroom dancing, sailing, judo, pigeon fancying, whatever....
The fact is that human beings change their minds about what they want to do. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, merely suggesting that flying may in this regard be no different, and we who don't give up are the oddballs in some regards. (I've certainly given up other hobbies over the years for that matter, I was one of the few hundred best in Briain in a particular sport and starting to look at becoming International until academic studies then flying took precedence.) G |
20% of the people who take a trial lesson decide to have flying lessons. It would cetainly be interesting to get some definitative figures as to the drop-out rate in the UK. I'm a Anorak, but collecting my Elite Anorak badge very shortly. |
Attrition rate
Like so many, I couldn't afford to learn to fly but scraped through to get my PPL.
When it came through the door it was a big anti-climax simply because I had no idea what I was going to do with it now that I had it. A young family ruled out the ever-increasing cost of hire. How could I justify blowing the equivalent of a weeks groceries on an hours flying. How could I enjoy it? Lack of currency - especially in the early days - means lack of confidence and an ever increasing likelihood of quitting Cost share? Forget it. Its legal but very few people are prepared to put their hands in their pockets. For me, the salvation came in the form of a flying group. Part ownership of an aircraft, no matter how small, gives you a sense of purpose, a group of like-minded mates to fly with and a 'part' of the aviation scene beyond hiring an aircraft from a club. Its a nice day - you want to fly now. You don't want to think to yourself, its a nice day - I'll take the next available booking in 2 weeks time.... The bug doesn't really bite hard until you have flown over the Channel or completed that first 'magic' trip. You feel chuffed with yourself, you flew well, have stories to tell in the clubhouse - all leans towards you becoming one of those who keep flying. Lets be clear though - flying aint cheap. If you set out to operate on a shoe string then be prepared for the occasional big, unexpected bill. If you aint got the money maybe you shouldn't start in the first place. Flying is an expensive luxury, make no mistake. I went through periods of flying very little - the money was needed elsewhere. Fortunately, nearly 30 years later, I am as keen as I ever was and fortunately can afford to fly my own aircraft whenever I want - all beyond my wildest dreams at the time. I have taken many people for their first flight ever in anything. To me, that is the biggest buzz of all. in the words of Brendan O'Brien, 'Aeroplanes - the most exciting machines made by man'... It says it all. Stick with it! HP |
Hairyplane - veyr inspiring post indeed. You basically have started what I was going to say:
For me, the salvation came in the form of a flying group. Regards Maz |
One of the hardest things to do, once you have your PPL, is keep yourself inspired. I was given a copy of 'Progressive Flying' for my birthday, which has useful ideas for how to push your envelope, gain experience, pay for your flying & generally improve yourself. Just flying round the local area, or even bumbling off to another airfield for lunch isn't enough to keep people motivated. Think how tough the struggle can be to get the PPL in the first place... It's a very steep learning curve and consolidating that, despite its importance, doesn't seem to be enough of a challenge for some.
|
I followed the inevitable route almost 20 years ago - I think I kept my licence for 2 or 3 years as I didn't have the inclination to spand all of my beer money on AVGAS. Some 15 years later I went back having promised that I would only do it if I could manage something more than the legal minimum and the monthly "within one hour of the aerodrome" flight.
I am now very lucky, I can afford more, I have a share in a good quality tourer that is invariably available and I often use it for business trips. Will I get bored? Maybe. However, I am now able to diversify (taildraggers, IMC, night, aeros etc) and I guess this will keep me interested. |
This is a v. interesting debate!
I think a lot of it comes down to people knowing what they want to do with the license once they get it. For many flying from A to B wth no particular reason to do it apart from the fun of flying wears thin very quickly. I passed my PPL in November and i've gone straight into Aerobatics. For me, the whole point of learning to fly was to 'do' aeros and i've been lucky to find an instructor and aeroplane (thanks for the steer, Stik!) that keeps it affordable (just) and definately keeps it fun. It's the best sport i've ever done in my life and I find that it really pushes me and develops my confidence in an aircraft. I'd suggest that every club offers a package to newly qualified ppl's. You could purchase an aerobatics package, an air racing package, touring package etc. All areas of flying could be sold as a one off product developing increased revenues for clubs as well as providing that incentive to continue past the first year. Many clubs do offer aerobatic/racing/touring/ type courses but in the same way that many of us have a carreer development plan why don't clubs give it's students a flying development plan. Set it out for the studes at the beginning. Better still why can't we develop the PPL into these packages. I knew I wanted to do Aeros from the start so why couldn't my PPL have included a short course in aeros? Likewise for the pilot who wants to go abroad or take part in precision air racing. Let them do a PPL that centres on these areas of flying. A bit of eduaction into the endless benefits of having a PPL at the beginning of the PPL course would pay handsomely in the long run. |
IMHO,a big part of the reason people give up is that the current UK PPL training scene doesn't seem to believe that pilots should have fun, actually discourages them from the kind of flying which creates that fun and seems determined to engender such a fear of messing up that its no wonder people stop flying.
So we get pilots who have to create a plog for every trip. Who are scared of leaving the local area, plog or no plog. For whom diversions from the planned course are a big deal. Whose idea of a long trip is 2 hours. For whom a foriegn trip needs at least 6 months planning. Who think that its a big deal to call ATC because they might mess up the call. Who think its a big deal to get a zone transit. Or to fly low. Or to beat up a runway. Or a beach. For whom a steep turn is 35 degrees. And for whom being closer than a mile or so to another aircraft is dangerous. Who get the whiz wheel out to give an estimate of time to a point. Who still use a whiz wheel for goodness sake. Who divert in marginal but flyable conditions. Please don't misunderstand. I do not advocate breaking height or visibility rules (much) or beating up noise sensitive villages. And I don't blame the pilots concerned; we all work within our experience levels. I do blame the system that produces them and fails to show them that there's more to flying than 2400ft straight and level. I just can't be surprised when pilots get bored of that within 2 years. |
Agree with the having safe fun thing...I regularly have fun in my1970 Bonanza ...along lonely stretches of Queensland beaches on offshore islands spotting whales and sharks and waggling the wings at surf fishermen...significantly lower than my day job (actually mostly night:ugh: ) flying a 767.
I think after 24 yrs, two privately owned aircraft and 11000+ hrs I qualify for the order of the most very advanced anorak....even though 10500+ of those hrs have been 'work'...I still mostly don't look at my job as work...well approaching TOPD BKK-FRA after 12 hrs can seem like it. I think for many, other than us fruitcakes, it's easy to see why people drop out....the aggravation/BS v reward quotient is very high these days...cost less so in a general sense, although it obviously is on an individual basis...people have proved this...just look at the boating boom of the last 20yrs next to the decidedly non boom in GA...the motorised kite and homebuilt sectors being somewhat of turnaround for aviation lite. People spend a LOT of money on boats!!! Speaking of fun...I have an Mpeg of some french fellas flying a little French low wing ski plane around the French alps landing on glaciers...can stik or someone who as done it advise if it would be possible to organise some 'dual' doing this if on a 4 day FRA layover? Wha time of year is the weather stable enough to have a fighting chance at organising it and achieving one days flying out of 2 or 3? Approximate cost? Licencing? This old tropical bush pilot would just kill to do that..landing on skis...got !!!!eloads of tailwheel time and 1000's of hours of very steep one way ops...possible or better do it on some annual leave? Chuck |
The 5% who do not get bored with flying because like me, whether 2400' s&l or doing aero's, flying is flying. I personally think its a great privilege. However that said, why can't something along the lines of glidings, bronze, silver, gold award be introduced to further your flying achievement, instead of the IMC, night, twin route that many seem to take.
Bob Manners organised the Around Britain Air Rally, for the reason of pushing the envelope with like minded people. One on the rally had just passed his PPL and had done about 20 hours before entering the rally, others had some 800 hours! |
I am just waiting for IO540 to appear, but in the meantime I will pre-empt him..........
As well as the many reasons stated here for giving up flying, there is also a few other things that puts people off. Crappy airplanes with knackered avionics and seats. Who wants to throw away a weeks food money on flying something that looks like it should be condemned? The attitude of many "old timers" towards modern technology, the use of GPS, the use of electronic flight computers etc. The attitude that pervades flying that if people are not navigating using a stop watch and a compass then they are not proper pilots, puts doubt into peoples minds and starts to make them feel inferior and lack confidence. Once that starts then they start to fly only when the conditions are perfect and as those opportunites start to dwindle due to the endless bad weather we experiance there interest starts to dwindle and then they stop finding time to fly. The same goes for tailwheel and aeros, everyone seems to think that they are justified in convincing others that there chosen path in flying is the "best way" to go to the point of making people feel inadiquate if they do not conform. I long ago stopped listening to the "experts" and went and did my own thing, I use GPS, I have cracking avionics fit in airacraft that suits my needs and with a thousand hours on it have had a of of fun. I am broadening my horizons with a conversion onto a supercub, but I doubt very much it will encourage me to shout to everyone in earshot that they should only fly a tailwheel and navigate by map stopwatch or they are not proper pilots. And will I stop flying the Duchess and the Baron or my Cessna because I can now fly a tailwheel cub? I doubt it, why? Because I enjoy the climb through cloud and the cruise in the sunshine before executing (what I hope!) is a perfect ILS into an airfield before a night out for dinner. We should encourage people to experiance everything flying has to offer but not try to force people into pidgeon holes. I guess by now I am probably in the super anorak stage? |
Bose-x,
You are only just converting to a supercub, huh? Won't take long before you are a tailwheel bigot :) like the rest of us :ok: You can put lots of sexy avionics and GPS in that panel too, and you can go the same places as you can in a nosedragger. Well seeing as I'm posting now.... I am unfortunate enough to have citizenships on both sides of the Atlantic (absolute nightmare on tax front) and have given up flying too much in one of my regulatory residences but not the other. My loss perhaps, but from where I sit logical. |
This thread seems like the other one here.
Lots of good points mentioned. But what's realistically going to get done? There are things which could be done but won't be because almost nobody in the business has the money. Like getting modern planes (and then doing some imaginative marketing to attract people who can REALLY afford this hobby). There are things which could be done but won't be because almost nobody in the business has the imagination. Like a lot of little things. Perhaps the most obvious in the latter category is retaining (in the club) people who have their PPL. Today, when you get your PPL, you are out on your own - unless the school/club reckon they can extract some more money from you for the NQ or IMCR. After which you are definitely out on your own for good, not least because you will have realised that most instructors don't fly anywhere so it's no use asking them how you could get to somewhere warm and sunny :O And being on your own is pretty hard. I am an owner and apart from longer trips (business or long trips UK/abroad) I fly at least once a week just for currency. This costs a bit of money. I have a small group of friends, all IR types, who rent the plane. We support each other with a booking site, operating tips, etc, but apart from that we are totally on our own, outside the GA establishment. We do our flight planning at home or with wireless-enabled laptops. Next is hire. I am sure most would agree that self fly hire is the worst way to stay current (it carries the highest possible marginal cost, the planes tend to be in the poorest condition, and take-away options are most limited) so the answer is a syndicate, or ownership. Yet few schools/clubs/instructors will encourage this because they want every possible last penny of your self fly hire money. Even a simple change in the attitude to existing PPLs would do a lot. Provide them with support e.g. flight planning facilities, advice on trips, organise flyouts. The really really controversial thing would be to encourage students to fly with them!! Controversial because the schools wants every penny the student has to be spent on lessons. A school/club (what's the difference?) should encourage PPLs to get into some sort of commitment (e.g. by selling off shares in their planes, in return for a lower hourly rate). Presently, PPLs that get into an ownership arrangement outside the school/club tend to not be encouraged to join in flyouts because schools like to make flyouts fully chargeable on each leg, and "people that come with a plane" might pinch some of the people who might otherwise have paid the self fly hire + instructor rate.... Lots of other little things that would help. No use advertising a quality business, selling a £100/hr product, in a free local rag, because the people that read those are people who cannot afford to buy a real rag. Yet schools just love adverts in the free local papers. A great way to get birthday party pleasure flights from the local council estate, with enough body piercings to affect the W&B (sorry :O but I've seen lots of those, and they always used to get priority before my prebooked lessons) But this has been done to death here and elsewhere and nothing ever changes. Most people drop out; a very small % of "anoraks" stay behind and they form the social scene at airfields, which in turn ensures that the only people that stay are either anoraks (99% males - another way to destroy any potentially interesting activity), or those who have a real incentive to fly. People entering this "sport" need to be told the real costs of getting a PPL, the need to get instrument qualified, the cost of keeping long-term current. And one needs to get a lot more girlz to come along! Nowadays, plenty of girlz have their own money!! The more one writes on this the more one goes around in circles. bose-x you timed your comment very well :O :O |
Hi All,
Firstly I think that I may be one of these pilots who you are all talking about. I passed about 18 months ago and am close to giving up. I never thought I would, but there you go. And like some of the posters on this very thread have stated, I thought that people who gave up once they had passed ought to be flogged - but now I am potentially one of them. Where did it all go wrong? Let's start at the beginning. When I first passed my PPL, I thought great! I am a pilot and I'm am ace! I took up friends and family, and then after meeting another newly qualified PPL, we went flying together - visiting different airfields and stretching the barrier further and further. I loved it. Then after about a year, things changed. My girlfriend and I moved house, and so my finances were stretched - a common occurrence in aviation I believe. But the major factors in my potential decision (I am about 85% made up in my mind) are as follows - in order of importance to me. 1. The difficulty in keeping current. At my flying club, the currency requirements are to fly every four weeks, no matter how many hours flown the prevous month. Even if you've done say ten hours one month, but then not flown for a while, then you do a check flight - simple as that. With my job, I can't take time of whenever I feel like it, and so I book in advance. 70% of the time, on my pre-booked day, the weather is !!!!!e and so I re-book, but the four weeks is up, and so I've got to go for another check flight with an instructor. Meanwhile, my friend is going through exactly the same thing, and so we haven't flown together for over six months. I am now at the stage of not having flown for five weeks - even though I've been booked in numerous times. 2. Weather I need say no more. 3. Distance to airfield. I am a member of three flying clubs (with all of the annual fees etc). One is half an hour away, but is the most expensive. For one hour, they charge £112 + £10 (insurance) + £6 (per landing) and then another £25 if I fly with an instructor. Another airfield only charges £75 with no extras - but the planes are bangers. Gaffer tape jobs some of them! At the third, the price is about £95, but it takes 2 hours to get there - and so if the weather is rubbish, then it’s a four hour round trip totally wasted. 4. Nerves The less I fly, the more nervous I feel when I fly. For over £100 an hour (which could be spent on all sorts of useful things for the house) I fly around the local area just to keep current. Without my partner in crime, I never venture very far, and so when I'm up there, I think to myself, 'is this really worth it?' The answer is usually 'yes' when on short final, but invariably changes to 'no' on the long drive home, with a severely depleted wallet. Because I fly so irregularly, and for such a short duration in time, I do not feel that confident at flying. This is probably a hard thing for a student to understand. When you are training, an instructor is always on hand to speak to you - even if you're about to fly off on a solo navex. The buck doesn't stop with you as a student, and you’re usually flying often enough to get over the feeling of unfamiliarity. This all changes after passing. You're on your own and you'd better get used to it. 5. Poor time-keeping by flying clubs. Every club I have flown to have had poor timekeeping - in fact, in my opinion, it's a problem that is endemic in general aviation as a whole. You turn up (on the one nice day of the summer) and the aircraft is out flying. "Oh they'll be back in an hour," someone tells you, and so you sit and wait for ages, watching the clouds thicken, and the time tick steadily onwards, and then it arrives - two hours late, and it's raining. 6. The elitist attitude of some flyers. One story sums it up. I head about this from a friend. At a busy general aviation airfield, the weather was pretty poor. Even for pilots with an IMC, it was proving difficult to land at. So imagine the clubhouse, filled with Mr Elite and Mr Uppity. They are chatting loudly. "I wouldn't be out in this Mr Uppity." "No," agreed his pal. And then they overheard the radio crackling away, and were aghast that a pilot was actually making an approach in his C172. "Idiot!" said Mr uppity. "Yes." agreed his pal. "Imbecile!" But they both watched the aircraft land safely and taxi in. As the young pilot climbed out of his aircraft, the pair started talking loudly together berating the young pilot for such a foolhardy landing. "He should be stripped of his licence!" Mr Elite stated, "and I might just report the young upstart!” No one else in the clubhouse said anything though, most didn't dare interrupt the gruesome twosome, and so in walks our young pilot. "Hello," he said. "Any chance of a cuppa?" And that's when he received the berating of his life. After listening in shock to what was being thrust at him, he turned to Mr Elite. "How do you know I haven't got an Instrument Rating?" Mr Elite guffawed and said something along the lines of 'how could you possibly have an IR! You’re only just out of school." "Actually," said the young man. "I do have an IR, and not only that, I have an ATPL. I fly 737's for a living." Which, of course, shut up Mr Elite and Mr Uppity? And rightly so! 7. Lack of funds. Though I could just about afford to keep flying, it would be just above the legal currency requirements - which in my opining, is nowhere near safe enough. And like I've said elsewhere, flying so little means that it’s not as much fun because it's all a little scary. So there you go. My reasons. Thank you for being patient. Regards |
Flock1 reminds me of an occasion when I had an elderly idjit try to fly into the back of me whilst I was landing at the end of an air test of an instructor's private aeroplane at Sywell.
He and I went over for a chat with this pilot who was about 70 and whose first words when I asked for a word were "I've got ten thousand hours". The expression on his face when the instructor whose aeroplane I'd been flying - who was about 21 but looked about 16 told this fool that he was a PPL examiner was really quite priceless. Not to deny that there are many superb pilots out there in their seventies or older - just not that one. This is of course largely off-topic, other than people with that attitude around clubrooms is hardly calculated to encourage new youngsters into the joys of private aviation. However flock1's post brings a few further thoughts to my mind:- (1) Do flying clubs like to tell you that there are many other ways of flying than renting incredibly expensive club 172s and PA28s. For example PFA aircraft, large syndicates, microlights, gliders (for that matter syndicates on PFA aircraft, microlights, etc.) .... I fly three aircraft regularly. One is a PA28 in a large syndicate costing me about £60/hr (based upon the 3 hours per month I fly in it), another is a small 2-seat taildragger (on a permit) in a smaller syndicate which similarly calculated costs me about £23/hr, the last is my own, a 2-seat microlight, and costs me about £500/yr plus fuel at around £12/hr. Okay there are purchase costs in there - but shares in our taildragger are currently going for £250 - or about 2 hours at Flock's quoted club rates. Even the PA28 share only cost me £2k a couple of years ago and I could probably sell it now for around £2.5k. Any way you look at it, all of these are far cheaper than club rental (2) Flying is invariably cheaper and more hassle free at smaller club strips than big regional fields. I think this message doesn't always get out. (3) Punctuality is a virtual impossibility in GA - for many sound reasons, these sort of realities need to be communicated early to any student pilot - and qualified pilots need to be educated in being realistic about this. G |
Whose idea of a long trip is 2 hours. Two hours out and two hours back is £500. Money again. You can buy a whole horse for that. |
OK, OK, OK.
Now, what can WE do about all this? When did you last chat to a nervous looking new club member, or a student, or someone else who looked a bit lonely at a flying club? When did you last offer to take someone flying with you, someone you don't know or who you just met, I mean? When did you last give advice to a newish PPL who wasn't sure whether they should fly, who was being ignored by instructors as they weren't a student any more? "They" can't do everything. Maybe "we" can help. Way back, another PPL and I persuaded a school to put up a notice for people to sign if they wanted to share flights. I don't know if it worked or not, but we told the school they'd get more flying hourts booked that way, and they liked the idea. I spend quite a lot of time chatting to people at flying schools. But I think I'm quite unusual - an extravert who likes chatting to people as much as I like flying. Some of them seem quite relieved to be talked to, especially if they're very young, very old, or female. There's a reason why "girlz" don't feel at home in flying schools. We get ignored, far too much of the time. All the other reasons we've mentioned apply, but the lack of a social scene definitely doesn't help, and...dare I say it...flying folk are not always the most friendly, until they know you've done enough flying to be an anorak. |
I think your sentiment is great whirly and nice to see, but the problem does not just lie with pilots no approaching other pilots it is often the attitude of the flying school.
Its fine when a more experianced pilots turns up and offers to fly with someone if they are using a school aircraft but when a private owner offers the same experiance they are positivley frowned on for "stealing" the punters from the school. This then leaves the inexperianced flyer in the position of peeing of the school and flying with the private owner which could turn out to be a limited opportunity or stay in the same situation. This has happened to me on a couple of occassions. To be fair there are a few schools that make an effort to retain the interest of flyers, Northants School of Flying as one example make sterling efforts to retain flyers with a very busy schedule of flyouts throughout the year to interesting places. We attend everyone of these as a private owner usually in the twin. This gives the newer pilots the opportunity to see there are more things to achieve and to share ideas. The only problem for a lot of people with these type of flyouts is that they happen during the weekend as the schools want to preserve the weekend revenue line. Sensible business practice but restrictive to a lot of people. Other schools I have encountered are just interested in your money and once you stop spending you are virtually ostracised. This does not do much for retaining new flyers! |
J.A.F.O. Thanks for the clarfication.
More to the point. Whirly's right as ever. I'm sure aspects of this topic has been through several threads and always there is a sad tale of unfriendly clubs, lack of encouragement or imagination beyond the small fleet of training Cessnas. Perhaps I was lucky, flying initially in a small gliding club, such that I've gravitated (rather literally) towards the smaller, grassier fields of GA, where in general there have been bowls full of pprune-y wit and wisdom. One tries to pass on what's been received - friendliness and encouragement especially. A spare seat always helps, especially if one's flying something a little different from the recipient's usual steed, or flying in a different milieu. |
Part of the problem may be to do with availability of aircraft too.
Lets face it....there are only so many places you can go on a 1.5 hour round trip. More than that, and you must stop somewhere, at least for a couple of hours, if not over night, simply to justify the cost. Unfortunately many clubs don't like you taking an aircraft away for much longer than it will be flying...and even if they do, you have to book way in advance to get it free for a day or two. Which leaves many renters running out of new and interesting places to go fly to. dp |
There's a reason why "girlz" don't feel at home in flying schools. We get ignored, far too much of the time. I suppose that being in a confined space (a C152 is as confined as I'd like to be) with a bloke in a smart uniform who will earn way more than the average teenager when he manages to unfreeze his fATPL has its attractions.... Macho attitudes are of course offputting to a lot of women too.... But seriously, yes, taking students up is a great idea, and the easiest to do. However bose-x is dead right - it will be frowned upon at the great majority of places. There's no way forward I can see. To bring in wealthier customers, one would have to start with a regulatory overhaul, FAA-style. Bring GPS in fully, abolish the silly slide rule.... Presently any of them that DO walk in will just quietly laugh. 20 years? |
I suppose that being in a confined space (a C152 is as confined as I'd like to be) with a bloke in a smart uniform who will earn way more than the average teenager when he manages to unfreeze his fATPL has its attractions.... Or maybe it's just me!! :O |
I haven't read all the posts here so pardon me if I repeat something already said, but I agree with what a few of the folks here have written. The goal during training is to get your PPL. Once you get and are on the back side of that gate, you're on your own with no discussion from anyone of what you're going to do with it now. I left flying almost immediately after getting my PPL (for the reasons posted above but also because I got stationed in Korea which, with it's air defense network, didn't seem like a good place to take up flying again!).
Flying schools and clubs could do themselves some good if they thought about students in a different way, giving some real thought to how to retain people after they get their tickets. Organized fly-outs are one thing. I belong to an excellent club, but the flying school part is still regarded as a seperate entity in the minds of most members. However, ee had a member organize a few "new PPL" fly-outs which went down a treat. I think much of it is about the community. If it weren't for the people in my club and their encouragement, I probably wouldn't be flying today. But I found some like minded people who are really enthusiastic and that has made all the difference. If your club or flying location doesn't have a social atmosphere, take it upon yourself to help create one. Nothing is lonelier than an airport where the pilots show up, fly, and go home. Most people are social animals and, given an opportunity to sit and talk about flying for a couple of hours would probably do so. What about a "club" evening down at the nearest pub on Thursday nights, for instance? From there you could organize group fly-outs, challenges and activities to keep flying fun (how about a flying treasure hunt or something like that?) Anyway, where I am now has no social scene - it's just an airport, and it's not nearly as much fun and I haven't flown nearly as much as I used to. I can't help but think the two are linked. Pitts2112 |
I wonder if Pitts has put his finger right on the pulse there.
A flying school (even if it is called a club) is basically a money making venture - and quite right that it is. A flying club, consisting of individual members sharing their love of flying is a quite different thing. To work it needs (a) members with something and somewhere to fly, and (b) a minimum of commercial interference from anybody trying to make money from their flying. I'd be willing to bet that anywhere with a proper club, separate from any school, has a far lower dropout rate than a pure school (even, as I said, if it calls itself a club). Thinking of a couple of good examples, Sywell (the Aviator hotel) or Popham (clubhouse) are the sort of places you actually want to be. Many PFA struts or microlight clubs create the same sort of environment; but most schools with a "sort of club" tacked on do not. G |
Gosh, you must come to the place where I did my PPL. While I cannot vouch for whether anyone talks to them, girl students are much fought over and quite a few end up pregnant I suppose that being in a confined space (a C152 is as confined as I'd like to be) with a bloke in a smart uniform who will earn way more than the average teenager when he manages to unfreeze his fATPL has its attractions.... Points all taken, and all probably true, about schools' attitudes. But I still think improving the social "scene" has a lot to do with individuals. Look at the popularity of PPRuNe, the Flyer Forums, etc. What do we do? Chat. And give and get given advice. And occasionally, just occasionally, meet ang go flying. If I think about flying to another airfield - and I can do it because of small group, cheap flying, good availability, enough experience - I sometimes decide not to bother because I know I'll arrive, talk to no-one, fly there, pay my landing fee, talk to no-one, have coffee, leave. It's fun, but at £100+ per hour! I don't think so. And if I didn't have cheaper access and usually someone to fly with, I probably wouldn't bother. And I'm probably as addicted to flying as...most of us here. And I suspect my experience is multiplied by.....a large proportion of those who gave up recently. :( |
It's been just over a year since I got my PPL and in that time I have been renting from the club I learnt at. Mostly because of the weather I have done far fewer hours than I intended to, and because of the need to get the aeroplane back for the next booking, I have only flown fairly locally. Someone said that many PPLs consider 2 hours to be a long flight - well it is when the club want their aeroplane back in one hour! Fortunately my club seem happy for me to take an aeroplane away for 4 hours - I haven't asked for a whole day yet!
It would be very easy for me to give up flying, except that I have grand plans to buy a share, get an IMC (and IR eventually) and use the aircraft as a means of transport rather than an expensive way to buy a cup of tea! I'm not in a position to buy a share just yet, so for this year I've set myself goals that I can achieve while still renting - flying different types, fly a minimum number of hours, visit a minimum number of airfields etc. As has been mentioned by a few posters, I think the lack of goals post PPL is a real problem. The social scene at my club is pretty much non-existent, but I have found the instructors very helpful and they do seem to take an interest even though I've got my PPL. If the weather looks a bit iffy, they'll quite happily talk about what is was like when they were up 15 minutes ago etc, and on a number of occasions when I've wanted to go up but the crosswind has been really strong, they've come up with me for a few circuits for free. They've actually been much better since I got the PPL then they were when I was learning! I'm interested in the comments that girls are ignored when they turn up at flying clubs. In my experience people at flying clubs are very keen to talk to the "rare breed" when I turn up. It always makes me rather self-conscious about my parking when everyone stops and looks at me when I taxi in! I have never found the flying environment to be at all sexist - but then I work in a male dominated industry, so maybe having been in that environment for years, my attitude doesn't encourage sexism. In short, I think letting your PPL lapse is a personal thing, and there's probably not a lot clubs can do to prevent it. You either really want to fly, or you don't. I don't think nicer machines etc would fundamentally change that. If you don't have goals or really love being in the air, then it's an expensive and time-consuming hobby, which is dependant on good planning and reasonable weather and, as such, requires a level of commitment that most other pastimes don't. |
Re the diff between a "school" and a "club": I can't see there can be much.
Neither can lose money in the long run, so both must charge enough to cover their fixed costs. I suppose a "school" might have an absent owner who is looking for a return on his capital (the traditional business scenario) but if the owner is working there then there's no difference between him drawing a salary and a "club" employing a full-time manager drawing a salary. So there's no difference. Given the same expenses, they should both charge the same amount. Of course, a "club" will have a bar :O |
I think the thing that saved me, and has kept me flying (rather than drifting away to another hobby) was joining an inexpensive group:
I did my PPL in the usual way, quickly followed by a night rating, IMC and conversion onto a four-seater. I flew for the usual half-hour or one-hour trips often with friends who hadn't ever been in a light aircraft and then did what I thought was the next step and got a multi-engine rating. I only ever did one "trip" in the multi and landed back at the school at lunchtime having spent about £500 in hire charges and landing fees during the morning. Even paying with a credit card (it doesn't feel like real money then does it?) I left the desk wondering what on earth I was doing spending this sum of money. By co-incidence, there was an advert for a share in a group aircraft on the notice board that I passed on the way out. The cost of the sixth share was less than £2000, and the hourly rate about £20 per hour. The aircraft was a Jodel, but I was so ignorent at that time that I didn't even know whether it was a single- seater or a two-seater. I soon found out it was a two seater and bought the share. This transformed my flying. I could now fly away for the whole day or even several days with my wife and suddenly we realised the privilege of being able to fly. We flew up to the Scotish border for Sunday lunch, down to a farm strip in the west country to stay with friends, saving a gruelling drive there and back. We few to the Isle of Man for the day, and so on. We saw wonderful views like flying over the lake district, and flying along Hadrian's Wall. We even flew to a farm strip near my wife's parents, saving a 400 mile drive each time. This enabled us to get some real advantage from my PPL licence, so I didn't drift away; I kept flying. Yes, we had to cancel some trips because of weather, and once we had to stay an extra day because of weather, but at last we could actually use an aircraft as a more pleasant alternative to the car. Without joining a group, I would never have been able to afford all of these trips, even without the difficulties of availability (more on that later). I was lucky in that I saw an advert at exactly the right time and therefore picked up the phone, spoke to the other group members and joined. I had obviously seen adverts for group shares before, but it seemed a bit of a closed world to me and I had assumed you had to have many years of flying credentials to join. I now know that this isn't the case and our group has had many members with less than 70 hours total time, but I think many new ppls never get to hear about group flying and (as I did) think it is difficult to get into a group. I can understand that flying schools don't have any incentive to educate their students about the advantages of group flying, but I think this is just another bit of shortsighted thinking on their part. Now, my suggestions on availability: I don't think that it is the cost of flying on its own that is the whole story. If you pick somewhere that isn't easy to drive to, e.g. the Isle of Man, or Le Touquet, or even the Isle of Wight, depending where you are in the country, there will be somewhere like this that is within one hour's flying time in a typical four seater. If you hire this aircraft at typical rates, and you go for the whole day, the costs between 2,3 or 4 people are actually quite reasonable; less than two hours hire, plus a landing fee. The difficulty is that most schools (and clubs) want you to pay for a minimum of say, 3 hours on a weekday, or 4 hours at a weekend if you want the aircraft for the whole day. This then begins to get expensive and is often a non-starter. However, I see lots of aircraft that spend the whole day (and sometimes days on end during the week) without being untied. What the schools need to do is to have a "standby" system, where if no-one has booked a particular aircraft by 5pm the previous day, then you can have it for the whole day, and just pay for the hours it is flown. i.e. no minimums. Yes, this means that you will sometimes book the aircraft on this standby basis, and then get "bumped" by more profitable bookings at the last minute, but hey, we are used to having to cancel for other things like the weather, aircraft tech problems etc. I managed to get this arrangement with one school and managed a trip for four people to Old Warden for one of the flying days. The aircraft was a lovely C182, and the cost per person for the flying part of the trip (40 minutes each way) seemed small for such a fantastic day out. I've never heard of anyone else using this "standby" system of booking, but surely it makes sense for both the customer and the school. Why not ask your local club / school if you can hire in this "standby" basis. It is when you can take an aircraft away for the whole day (or longer) that the real advantages of your licence begin to appear. |
IO540,
I have to disagree with you there. The economics may be similar as you say, but there is a huge difference between a school and a club. Take Leicester. Definitely a club. Pick any rainy, drizzly Saturday afternoon where not a VFR airplane in the country has moved and you'll find the Leicester clubhouse packed. It's as much a club as a golf club or any other kind. In some respects, flying is just the excuse for the club to exist! And there's usually a large dose of time spent in the club bar before and after every flight. Also, there's a healthy stable of owner operated airplanes mixed in with the club fleet and the instructors are an essential part of the fabric of the club, even if most members only fly with them for their BFR. There's curry night on Thursdays and events all year long. White Waltham, I understand, is similar. At these clubs business is taking place but it feels more like flying is taking place, whereas a school is where business takes place and it feels like it. Leicester has a soul and character, a school doesn't. I also agree with QNH in that joining a cheap group is what saved me, and finding the kind of flying I wanted. If PA28s at £100 an hour were all that were available to me, I wouldn't bother. But if a Taylorcraft for strip flying at £40 an hour is there, you can't keep me on the ground! Pitts2112 |
Going back to the original issue about freshly-minted PPLs giving up soon after qualifying, one point that is common to many of the views expressed is money. Two or three of the previous poster have indicated that joining a cheap group was the saviour in their flying, and really this is the nub of a lot of the problems. The inability or unwillingness of Flying Schools to allow their post PPL’ers to take an aircraft at short or any other notice for a three day jolly, but only fly it for a couple of hours boils down to sound business practice; what is the margin in having an aircraft sit on the ground at Le Touquet for three days after an hours flight when it can be in the air say six hours a day doing training, trial lessons or hour long PPL hire – none at all.
The ideal solution if the three day trip is your desire would obviously be to own your own, but that means costs. Another reason covered above include the frankly aged and crappy state of the large part of the UK GA fleet. Most flying school owner would be delighted to have a gleaming, well maintained fleet with no empty nav/comm. slots on the dash and perhaps a couple of a/c spare to cover unforeseen technical problems. In general, the only thing stopping them is the business economics of making enough money from the fleet to make it a viable proposition, and why, because the vast majority on GA want to fly on the cheap. It matters not whether it is a club or school, cheap hire rates result only in shabby old aircraft. Untill the GA community starts to put its’ collective hand in its pocket and pays sensible rates for quality aircraft the fleet will remain as it is, old and shabby. Despite all the other laudable reasons set out in the thread, the reason most PPL’s give up is because they cannot afford to continue in the way they would like, because the aircraft are not available in the way they would like at a price they would like. With the possible exception of horsiculture, I cannot think of any other fundamentally expensive hobby that so many hope to pursue with so little. If someone can come up with a way of providing good quality aircraft, at low cost and “go when and where you like” availability there must be a few quid in it. Until then it’s business as usual. :\ |
Take Leicester. Definitely a club. Pick any rainy, drizzly Saturday afternoon where not a VFR airplane in the country has moved and you'll find the Leicester clubhouse packed. |
If someone can come up with a way of providing good quality aircraft, at low cost and “go when and where you like” availability there must be a few quid in it. Until then it’s business as usual. Blimey, that almost reads like a brochure :\ |
Okay, now we've disussed it, what are we going to do about it.
Positive action is required, or do we let this thread die, and discuss it all again next year, and the one after that, and .... |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 21:37. |
Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.