Pfa Bb
 

Could some of you who know about these things give the PFA a hand to fix their BB

Perhaps they prefer it when it is out of use, members not being able to ask whats really going on at PFA HQ????

The request has a slight irony. ;)

Whenever someone refers to something on Pprune on their BB, all the PFA 'powers that be' seem to do is make very 'superior' disparaging remarks about the poor standard of posts on Pprune. :rolleyes: We're no better than the average flying club bar etc etc

When some PFA members suggested they could improve their BB if they followed the Pprune model, that went down like a lead balloon. :)

BTW, having looked at the PFA BB a few times, I can see what you mean but I'm not a member so it doesn't affect me. That 'S. A.' chap is quite something, isn't he. :rolleyes:

Not so sure I want to know whats going on at PFA HQ.

With what I have heard recently my respect for the elected part of the organisation has taken a bit of a knock.

I know we're all human etc but why do the extremes of human nature always seem to surface in these types of organisations.

We will need a coordinated strong voice for all rec-aviation in this country over the next few years and the PFA could focus this if only they would put as much effort into it as their petty squabbles.

Sir George Cayley

I sent an email asking about the Bb being down and when service night be resumed but have had no reply (must be nearly a week now).

They are probably very busy trying stop Shadows (possibly one our safest aircraft) from being banned from flying at the end of this month. (hope the fact that the last pfa update on this subject was 19/02 is not a bad omen)

I'm trying to find out what a "BB" is, but I have to use 15 words.

Bingoboy - only waiting a week?!

I sent an email to [email protected] on 8 Feb asking if they could send my a current list of "accepted" aircraft (the list on their website is hopelessly out of date - no RV7, RV8, Zodiac 601XL, Tecnam Super Echo - those are just the ones I know about - how many more are missing?).

Not a difficult request I wouldn't have thought, but other than an acknowledgement on 12 Feb, a month later I am still none the wiser.

I would complain directly to the PFA, but I can already visualise the reply - "blah blah .... move offices to Turweston ..... blah blah .... working on EASA .... blah blah .... if you think you can do better - stand for the EC yourself ... blah blah:hmm:

I suspect that the BB has recently been restricted to members, and then totally removed, is because the sheer volume of vented frustration, complaints and general dissatifaction with the way the the organisation is behaving was causing acute embarrasment. Furthermore, the responses by EC members to some of the complaints made on the BB showed a complete contempt for the membership at large.

Mr. W
-an increasing disallusioned pfa member:(

bb= bulletin board

From the time pre-internet where a site like PPRuNe, i.e a bulletin board, had a phone number and you dialed in directly to us and us alone.
---------------------------
I've been a PFA member since 1977 and I think there is genuine reason to believe that the elected leadership has been both factionalised and dysfunctional for a considerable time. The parallel goings on at Australian Aopa are far more public and indicate what may well be going on behind closed doors in the UK. The website and bulletin board in Australia is always the first victim of purges, bannings and even writs.

Would anyone of you have the text of the good Lord Trefgarne's farewell letter to hand? I'm downroute at the moment and perhaps it really should have a wider audience.

As to the leadership being sniffy and sniping regarding PPRuNe that's just a feature of committee psychology - everyone feels they have to maintain 'standards' they don't actually believe in or follow themselves. The whole concept of PPRuNe was offered to Balpa but the committee creatures all swore it couldn't succeed - how right they were. Far more worrying is if there are other readers who feel the same attitude of looking down their elected noses at the hoi polloi rank and file PFAers is felt to the same degree as I experienced.

I won't be losing any sleep over their reactions - they however have to consider this. More traffic and UK PPL's here in a day than they manage in a 100 days - and I'm being very generous to them there.

Just to really get them really thinking - only 7% of PPRuNers post messages. The PFA are really losing out on a huge audience of actual and potential members. We have a policy of allowing permit group aircraft shares to be traded and not binned as advertising. It looks like, at the moment, we're doing more for the association than they are for themselves. It's a great pity - I'm a huge believer in the PFA and its full time staff, operate a permit Jodel (my 4th) and think the quality of the magazine is such that it should now be on the newsstands.

Regards
Rob Lloyd
Member 31099

I think this thread is a bit one sided. My experience of the PFA appears a little different.

I have been in touch with the PFA by email, telephone, and the much-maligned bulletin board in the last few months. On all occasions the response has been prompt and helpful.

I have been a regular reader of the pfa bulletin board and do not recall any PPrune bshing on it. The depth of knowledge displayed when any technical topics are discussed on the board are impressive, and it is a shame that it does not attract more traffic. Other threads, such as those stirred by the original poster here have not served anyone very well in my opinion.

My email asking about the board was answered promptly: they are trying to get it fixed over this weekend and early next week. Hopefully they will succeed.

I really hope we dont get into a PPrune versus the PFA thread here as I think they both have their place, and maybe a slightly diffferent audience, although I personally certainly use both.

And just in case anyone asks, I have no connection to the pfa other than as a satisfied ordinry member. I do not have any connection to, or even know, anyone who holds any office in the organisation, either elected or an employee.

Yes but where is the pfa Bb and where are the email replies to basic Q's ??

Is there anything in the rumour that the PFA Kemble Rally is off ?

It could be true.
I was told at the end of last summer by someone who flies from Kemble the owners wouldn't have the rally back if Steve Moody was in charge again. That was 100% reliable gen. I haven't asked him about it recently so I don't know if the owners stuck to their guns or backed down, probably depends how much money they make out of the rally. I wouldn't blame them if they stuck to their guns. Moody's ginormous ego and running off to the CAA caused a lot of hassle for Kemble as well as for the two pilots he was desperate to dob in it with the CAA.

The word round these parts is that it has nothing to do with the events surrounding Mr Moody last year.

It is said that the PFA lost a bucketful of money on the Rally last year and are looking to raise the costs to exhibitors substantially this year. Unfortunately for the PFA, competing events like the London show has made it possible for potential exhibitors to stick a couple of fingers up at the PFA, and now the Rally looks seriously underfunded.

If the latest round of menacing letters sent to exhibitors doesn't put them off the PFA for good, I don't know what will :D:D

Charlie
x

Been told that as of the current time there is only 50% chance of the rally going ahead this year. Lack of exhibitor sign up and lack of sponsorship has been cited.

I think if the rally stops this year it’s going to be a long time before we see it again.:(


P…..

I am a PFA member and I do miss the BB so I emailed the illustrious organisation and received the following prompt response;

I have heard all kinds of disturbing rumours about the PFA over the past 48 hours. I just think that the organisation is incredibly important to so many aviators in the UK and particularly those who can only afford or are able to operate on a Permit to Fly. While the organisation is far from perfect, let’s just be careful that we don’t contribute to any premature crisis just by perpetuating rumour and innuendo.

So what exactly is going on?

BB still down, still no response to emails, a steady stream of rumours that the Rally is to be cancelled ......... anyone out there any the wiser?

Mr W.

PS. I just looked at the PFA web site to see if there is any announcement (there isn't) and happened to notice that entrance to the Rally for this year is now £25 / £40 for non-members and even a tenner for members. Does this not seem a little extortionate?
:mad:

According to the PFA web site, their Bulletin board should be up and running again next week.

Dont know why Mr Wolfie doesnt get replies to his emails, it seems that most other people do. I always get a prompt reply to any questions

The Rally is on, but there has been a slower than usual uptake by exhibitors. A discounted rate has now been offered I am told.
It does appear that there have been a few who have decided to exhibit at the London Airshow and not yet confirmed that they will be at the Rally.
Seems like a strange decision to me. The cost of exhibiting at Earls Court is 5 times that at Kemble and who is going to go?? You cant fly-in, all the hassle of going into central london and then £18 to get in for what is just a smaller version of the PFA Rally exhibition area but probably without most of the aircraft except a few roadable examples. I cant see many people bothering going

see you all at Kemble in July

I suspect the London Airshow thing is probably only half the story.

When you look at it, we now have competing for revenue...

- Popham microlight show
- PFA Rally
- Aerofair
- Telford International Airsports Exhibition
- London Airshow

And possibly some special events as well. The traders are (in my experience) getting fed up with too many expensive "be here, or your customers will think you're not serious" shows at which they rarely sell much anyway (okay, not universally true - but certainly the case with the more expensive products).

I suspect that they'd all be delighted to see all but two closed down - probably leaving the PFA rally in the summer, and Telford (or better still, somewhere more convenient) in the middle of winter.


Incidentally, it's worth bearing in mind (we've all read Lord Trethgarn's letter !) that it's an error to think of the PFA as a single homogenous organisation. The professional staff at Turweston are quite distinct from the political side (the EC), which in turn is a different beast to the regular meetings of struts. Plus some activities - I think including the website and magazine are farmed out somewhere else again. So, if you think you're getting poor service out of one part of the PFA, that almost certainly only indicates a problem in one place, not with the whole Association.

G

Cubflyer wrote:

...well I sincerely hope that you will.

On a personal note, I have really enjoyed previous rallies at Cranfield & Kemble and would be dissapointed to miss it this year. (Plus I've already arranged "board & lodgings").

More seriously, if the rally doesn't go ahead (& not due to unforseen circumstances such as Foot & Mouth as happened 3 years ago) then I think it points to a shaky future for the long term health of the association.:sad:

Mr. W

PS. All those who have said that they get prompt responses to emails to the PFA - could someone get a current list of accepted aircraft on my behalf as I am now fed up of trying.:bored:

I,m told ythe BB will be back next week re-registration will be required by membership number and name and posts will be under real names.Now that should improve the quality of any debates greatly.Anonymous forums are of little value and if your not a member then you don,t get a say.My contact tells me that the rally lost nearly £60000 last year in what were nearly perfect conditions!!.I,m ambivolent about the rally after 35 years near solid attendance (Leicester was the first one) I,m rallied out and all these new fangled kit planes don,t float my boat.There may be a lot wrong with the PFA but its all we,ve got and they turn the paperwork roundon my Permit aircraft very quickly.For those voiciferous complainers why not get involved they,re always short of volounteers including on the EC the governing body!!.

I see the pfa BB is still down.

Quote from G..the Eng.."I think including the website and magazine are farmed out somewhere else again. So, if you think you're getting poor service out of one part of the PFA, that almost certainly only indicates a problem in one place, not with the whole Association".

I think you have hit the nail on the head regarding the PFA.

The Ass does not have a proper structure and is open to too many personal opinions.

I hope the rally goes ahead but I take the point that traders are "showed out" with having to spend too many days a year away from the office.

I would like to see the PFA continue but someone at the top needs to listen to the membership and turn the Ass around to provide a totally professional approach.

A few (million) people seem to think PPRuNE is of more than a little value, judging by the volume of posts and readers - about 700,000 per day.

The Bb is still down.
It is quite surprising in this day and age that the PFA can't find someone with the knowledge and aptitude to run their Bb.

The last rally was lovely mainly I think because of the weather and the great Kemble bar but it did seem to lack something I'll call focus.

Perhaps the same could be said of the PFA themselves at present.

Err, isn't that because it's an association rather than a private company or 3rd world dictatorship?

G

Mr Wolfie,

I have sent you a private message with the list of approved types that you were after. I asked Monday night and it was waiting for me tonight.
The Web site will be updated with this info shortly I am told

lots of interesting aircraft to choose from!

If they're so kack at running there own site can't we get Big Red L to allow a PFA forum here?

Cubflyer- many thanks - however I also received an email from Francis Donaldson on Tuesday with the current list (and an apology for the 5 week wait).:bored:

As you say there are some interesting designs listed and a few surprises there too. For example, contrary to what it says in the magazine ads placed by the UK Zenair rep, the Zenair Zodiac XL is not yet fully accepted (nor is the Vans RV9). Both are "cleared to build" though.

Even more interesting are the inclusion on the list of those types that were registered with the PFA but then abondoned before acceptance - a 5/6 scale Mosquito anyone??:ok:

Mr. W

Glad you got the list Mr W. dont know about the Zenair CH601XL clearance, I think one is flying, but maybe all the test flights arent completed yet. As far as the RV-9 is concerened, it wont be approved yet because a UK built example hasnt flown and gone through the PFA test program. I believe several are getting close, one Wilksch diesel powered.

The PFA may be an association, they have a "duty of care" to their members.

They are providing a service and being paid for it so we can expect the Ass to be run in a professional maner.

My children's School website and School magazine are run better totally by the pupils.

Anyway "Pink Headsets" are much more important!

If only that could extend to education! Whenever there's a pfa fly-in to an aerodrome with ATC all hell breaks loose as the PFAers do exactly as they please, ignore instructions and ignore the 'readback list':E

I think you will find thats a very small minority of pfa ers

not my experience at flyins. some times the ATC make such a mess they should just let the pilots sort themselves out.

I would like to think so, but it would require me to accept i only come across the same small minority every time!

In my experience the mess usually results from

An even more flexible approach is often required to accomodate the PFAers, but the nature of ATC requires some CONTROL be retained, if only so there is someone to blame when they fly in to each other. :hmm:

Drifting a bit off topic here, but what about the fly-in at a full ATC airfield, and then refuse permission to those with crap RT, that might buck a few ideas up. as it does seem that standards are collapsing.

I think that the slighting of certain groups of aviators or aviation professionals is counterproductive to having a serious discussion about the PFA.

If you have specific experiences by all means share them so that they can be debated in a constructive manner. Generalising as people have been doing in the last few posts is not helpful and will only result in a slanging match, achieving zilch.

Of course just my opinion,

;)

FD

i did generalise about the group of flyers concerned, which was unfair to any members of that group that are not guilty and i look forward to them proving me wrong.

I thought i was quite specific about my experiences with them. Surely you don't expect me to note their callsigns and list them here:E

Mister Perfection,
Just because you hear bad radio work or are otherwise offended by someone who is not as good as you are, do not assume that (a) he is a member of the PFA or, (b) that he would be any better if he wasn't a member of the PFA.
The PFA does not train any pilots.
Most PFA Fly-ins and the Rally in particular, are not restricted to PFA Members.

Mike W

GDMT,

The pile of CAS infringements after the PFA Rallye makes for depressing reading.

However I am pretty sure that this is due to a combination of the following:

1. Complex airspace structure.
2. Attendance by a large proportion of people that may be fly relatively few hours per year.
3. The lack of a dedicated facility to give these people assistance when things start to go wrong.

But not necessarily linked to being a paid up member of the association.

Now before all and sundry stumble over each other to point out that any competent PPL should be able to read the AICs and navigate properly (all things I agree with entirely) would the conclusion not have to be that the facts bear out that there is an issue which needs addressing in a proactive and creative way. May be necessitating some lateral thinking?

FD

Skylark hit the nail on the head ...

As flyer ... I certainly admit to not being the best at ATC and radio procedures. I'm not terrible though and can certainly navigate as well if not better than many. I've predominantly flown PFA aircraft and been in the PFA for nearly 20 years. However, I've also flown under the asepsis of the CAA (seem to remember being trained the CAA way like most here), BGA, and BMAA ... so which "bit" of me is the not so good bit?

Drop the "them and us" and realise that "ALL" flyers (and ATC) have their good and bad moments. If you don't think that's you ... don't worry, it will be one day!!!

SS

Flyin'Dutch' hit the nail on the head!

It's not about comparing others to one's own level of competence, but to the recognised level of competence required to aviate.

Skylark4 seems to be the only one making assumptions!

If the environment looks to complex for an individual they should seek guidance at the planning stage, and then decide if they're up to it.

I know I'm going to get slagged off seriously here but... As a PFA member I'm worried that the rally has become a God that must be worshipped!! That money has to be poured in for no profit each year and it's weakening the ability of the PFA to fight it's corner with Europe, Airfield haters, etc. I was at Kemble last year and it was good but.. Would I like the PFA to be a strong voice for aviation or a Fly-in organiser? Well. with, as I understand it, a threat to PFA permit aircraft now developing from Europe, I know which I'd prefer.

Spiney
P.S. Apologies for going slightly off subject here!

Very true Goddammit,

But that applies to all, and IMHO is no better or worse with PFA flyers than any others. I think that's exactly what Skylark meant too.

Of course FD makes great sense too ... perhaps his post below is the most relavent?

"I think that the slighting of certain groups of aviators or aviation professionals is counterproductive to having a serious discussion about the PFA.

If you have specific experiences by all means share them so that they can be debated in a constructive manner. Generalising as people have been doing in the last few posts is not helpful and will only result in a slanging match, achieving zilch.

Of course just my opinion,

FD"

SS