Wouldn't work Dawn, for a very simple reason. There are probably about 8 Engineers in the country with the experience and qualifications to run an aircraft homebuilding system. Four of those work for either PFA or BMAA, and the other four are probably all being paid far more, and have more sense than to touch what are incredibly political jobs.

Absolute rubbish - talk to anybody who has had an aircraft approved through either organisation about how much work they've had to do. The amount of work is enormous, and every project I've had sight of has been one where Francis or Guy has insisted upon some changes BEYOND the minimum safety standards, to ensure that the aircraft was good enough.

But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of these aircraft are idiosynchratic, some were approved before current safety standards were in force, and occasionally designers do their damndest to pull the wool over the eyes of the approving Engineers. On the whole they do a good job.

And I think that the PFA would be the first to tell you that some of their types - a Kitfox or Europa for example - should not be flown by anybody without specific training on the type.


Having said that, I do agree with you that some aspects aren't run well. The average operators manual for a permit aeroplane would be more useful recycled as firelighters, and I include CAA permit aircraft in that - very often the handling advice is "best guess", the performance figures were written by a salesman, not produced by rigorous flight test, and operating limitations are sometimes based upon a rather tenuous basis - what is the X-wind limit in a monowheel Europa for example? As you say, unapproved mods and repairs are rife, as are people being paid to build an aeroplane for somebody - with little or no supervision and without the vested interest to get it right that an owner has. And too many people jump into ideosynchratic permit aircraft without proper training on type.

Nonetheless, we (the Brits) have by far the best system in the world for homebuilt aeroplanes, with huge choice and a safety record which is still pretty damned good. I don't think that we should lose track of that. This is basically down to the professional staff at PFA and BMAA, a few talented individuals at the CAA, and those who support them - it's certainly not down to luck.

G

But is killing off the PFA and creating a new organisation the way to go ...

IMHO ... Hell NO!!!

Whenever there is major change in almost anything these days, it is used as a way of bringing in draconian legislation and restrictions. That could easily KILL the homebuild movement in the UK ... is that wahat you'd like to see?

The PFA is trying to negotiate a "sports" category not unlike the EAA system and this will be only be a good thing in my opinion. It will protect the well meaning inspector and place MORE responsibility on the owner. It will also protect previous owners and builders, again, a GOOD thing. That way the new owner/pilot will be responsible and if they know B..all about aeroplane maint or building they should get in a man who can, or get instruction. If they bodge something and ultimately kill themselves then I'm afraid it's their own stupid fault. After all if you apply the same thinking with cars you'll see that is what happens now. We have an MOT system, but if "boy racer" goes out straight after the MOT and modifys his car then kills himself, his family can't sue the MOT station or previous owner. If something was wrong with the car when he/she bought it which subsequently leads to their death, they may have a case, but most of the time it's "buyer beware" ... why not the same for simple homebuilt aircraft?

We should stop blaming others and take more responsibility for our own actions. The same applies for the PFA board and way it's run ... if you want to change things then vote for them or better still volunteer and try to get voted onto the committee.

Ivan

( why is it that sometimes the spelling of a word completely eludes you? I tried spelling committee in all sorts of ways and non looked right ..... :rolleyes: )

To those who have tried to change things and attend the AGM etc there has been much hostility from current members backing up the existing EC & NC.

The management have tried to silience anyone who would question a decision.

So how do we change things when open debate is not allowed within the Association.

JB

I have gone to strut meets and to other events and would have a few years ago been willing to get involved...etc, but..

I am a 30 something with tits and although I have more experience in GA aircraft than a lot of those without tits I felt like they were going to ask me to make the tea and bake buns for the next meeting.

Dawn

Then stop faffing around with the amateurs (talented and interesting people 'though they are) at strut meetings and go and talk to the professionals, who are far too busy to worry about whether you've got tits or not and already have somebody to make the tea.

With your experience, you'd be well placed to become a check/test pilot with PFA or BMAA, and if you've got formal engineering qualifications, an inspector as well.

Don't believe me? take a short drive East to Old Sarum, where you can meet Leslie (airfield manager, examiner, and long term member of both organisations) or Fiona (Chief Instructor and Chief Engineer of the Shadow school there, BMAA instructor, BMAA and PFA inspector). I'm sure both would, if they've the time (turn up when the weather's crap!) be delighted to tell you about their long term, and tits-neutral involvement with permit aircraft.

G

Thanks G. I will do that next time I am home, am working away at moment.

Dawn

has anyone here flown a monowheel Europa?

I also saw one run off the edge of the runway in zero wind

JB

FFF has one!

FD

(FFF = Flying for Fun he resides on these shores)

Has FFF had a bump in his?

Nope, but I've seen one crash as well. Landed behind me at Compton Abbas in 10-15kn Southerly (sporting in anything at CA), lost control just after touchdown, veered off the runway and through the hedge.

G

Is there anyone who has not seen a Europa crash??

I saw one veer of the runway over here, thankfully not much damage and no one hurt. again a high time pilot. Another pilot from here had one of the first to be built and it had a couple of bumps.

I heard the same story as Dawn, "they will fly before they can be controlled", sounds a bit scary, I prefer to tell the aircraft what to do.

Also noticed the accident reports at about 4 per SRG issue, keeping up with the Jabaru.

However the Ulster Flying Club have managed to crash about six of their brand new C172s over the last few years, "drivers perhaps"

Hey lads, just noticed that the PFA members can give each other *******"STARS" *******on the new BB, can we have some to give away, please??

The way things are going on this thread, if we ever allmeet up, some of us at least are going to get to see stars. :mad: :ouch: :{ :\:E :ok:

Pinga

I think you will find most people here are very reasonable with a lot of experience to share. Some are a bit pissed off with the association, some of us were members of it for years.

Did you ever give us your thoughts about the letter from Lord Trefgarne?

Or is he just a noisy moran like me?

Dawn,

It would almost make me want to register on the BB again, but I think "they" would refuse me a 5 star rating.

John

No, you are right; I didn't give you an opinion on the letter from Lord Trefgarne did I!

The point I have been trying to get over is that the PFA is an association and all members should make a deliberate effort to bring about constructive change NOT destructive change. Public bickering and tantrums do nothing to improve the PFA or its image. What are YOU going to do to bring about CONSTRUCTIVE change? The PFA is an association not a dictatorship and the members can bring about a change. My whole point is that there is a right way and a wrong way of doing just that.

Pinga

I think John's point is that the EC and management have become a tight little clan and they run meetings, even the AGM in a way to avoid anyone who would like to voice a different opinion having a proper say.

I know from experience that when I tried to ask for an explaination queitly through the office, I was fobbed off. At that time in October 03 when we were seeking "fair play" for our friend George Adams we had no option but to go to the BB.

I see you still do not say if Lord Trefgarne is a noisy moran or not

Tony

Hey Tony,

Where can you fly to in N ireland, have had some bad experiences there last year.

EGAD: Very hostile and unhelpful, some bitch kepy on about Special Branch even though we had that all sorted by fax prior. I think it was the CFI who was a bit of a nasty bastard also, made us move our aircraft after it was parked under the instructions from the a/g radio. Not much of a welcome compaired to a few years ago.

EGAC: Cost about £60 landing, parking one night.

EGAA: Woodgate, God do you have to bribe the re-fuelers to leave their coffee. Very nice and helpful ATC though.

EGAE: Bastards all :- ATC, Security, Staff in shop, it'll be a cold day in hell before I'm back.

I have written to complain where I thought it was necessary.

So where do you fly from.

Dawn.

Sorry to hear about that Dawn.

Newtownards (EGAD) would tend to agree. Hope this will change soon.

Belfast City (EGAC) not really interested in GA

Aldergrove (EGAA) I usually fly from there will pass on your post to Woogate re fuel. and ATC always like a pat on the back.

City of Derry (EGAE) Also fly form there, and it can be a bit hit and miss with ATC, Security and staff, please write to the operations manager.

The good news is Eniskillen (EGAB) is re-opening soon and hopefully will be more GA friendly.

I also fly from a farm strip at home will email you details about local private strips, most are for STOL aircraft though.

Just in case you all think we are wandering, there are a lot of PFA members and aircraft in N Ireland, most are based at private strips and all are very friendly.

Tony

PFA VAC Turweston 17/04/2004
 

Greetings all

Now have I got this wrong?

The EC of the PFA ,against the instincts of the majority of its members moved from Shoreham(user friendly since Bleriot)
to Turweston where the leader of the local council and a few cohorts are hell bent on restricting and no doubt closing the field down?
I truly believe that they have lost the plot.

Rgds. FPG (a PFA member,reluctantly)

And if you own a PFA microlight you cant fly to the PFA office.

Strange place to move to.

Dawn

FaPoGai, I wondered that too, but by the sounds of things it about what one might expect.

DawnB, I also don't think they are best pleased to have Pitts Specials in either, because of their noise problems at Turweston, and all most all the single seat Pits are permit a/c.:confused:

I suppose a lot of the EC live closer to the new office at Turweston.

Still there are other less restrictive airfields in the area.

Well done PPRuNe you've cracked it and we are all famous.

Guess what we have made it on to the new PFA BB.

So have a look quick before it is deleted

Dawn

http://www.pfa.org.uk/cgi-bin/ultima...c;f=1;t=000007

Dawn B, If you are ever to get a husband you will have to moderate that costic tongue.

You will have hurt the feelings of some at the PFA, how could you ever suggest that "they" would delete a post.

John

John honey,

I could have two or three husbands a week if I wanted to,

But they always belong to other women.

Anyway I spend too much time with men at work to want one of my own, sure you are all the same

Just had a look at the PFA BB, seems not all are happy clappy PFAers.

Most seem to want to have a BB like this one.

Shortstripper wrote:

"The PFA is trying to negotiate a "sports" category not unlike the EAA system and this will be only be a good thing in my opinion."

VP959 replies (belatedly perhaps):

Actually, it seems that the PFA now has a declared intent, clearly and very recently expressed by "the PFA management", to become the ONLY recreational aviation body in the UK.

To move towards this end they have declared that they are now seeking to take away approval work from the BMAA, and have made it very clear that in their view there is no room for two associations looking after light powered aircraft. The intent seems to be to seek to drive the BMAA out of business.

Methinks that the PFA membership need to state their views on this "declaration of war" with the BMAA, as I cannot somehow see the present, mismanaged, poorly presented and hopelessly inneffective association truly managing to be the sole representative body for the lighter side of aviation.

Perhaps the fact that 30% of light aircraft in the UK are now microlights has caught the attention of the association that once refused point blank to have anything to do with them. I've no doubt the potential to earn dosh from all the extra microlight permit renewals, to waste on yet further infighting, might appear attractive.

Perhaps it is time for the rest of us in G/A to get behind the well run BMAA and give them the support they need.

Perhaps the PFA members who don't "need" to be members should consider their position

John

For those of you who beleive everthing you read here I would like you to understand that this whole thread, just like those on the PFA BB last year has been part of a personal vendetta against the PFA management by Tony Ringland and a couple of others.

People need to realise that this sort of thread could lead to the downfall of the PFA. Then where would homebuild owners be

Dave



Edited again.
(1) Do NOT re-post parts which have been removed by a Mod.
(2) If you want to slander people, do it on the PFA BB - NOT on ours.

Heliport
Moderator

nongpsuser, I was hoping to let TonyR take a bit more line before reeling him in. It is clear to every thinking person that he does not act out of concern for the PFA but following his own agenda. You have said what I was reluctant to say although I did say earlier on that there are two sides to every story and we have heard much of the other side previously although the other side of the story is only just being told!



Edited. If you want to slander people, do it on the PFA BB - NOT on ours.

Heliport
Moderator

You meant libel no doubt. In any event I was very careful with my words and MY post did not contain in my opinion contain any libelous statement. If you read a libel then that is what you read into it. Unfortunately there are a few souls who would have everyone believe that they are pure white and the PFA is jet black. Be assured it really isn't like that. They have their own facist agendas.

Pinga & nongpsuser,

I have posted facts which after being brought into the public domain in the Crown Court can be checked from court records.

If you read my letter to the PFA magazine, ( below) then perhaps ask the management what have they done about re-instating Mr Adams and have they got proper insurance for their inspectors. This letter has never been addressed, just like all the posts that were removed from the PFA BB.

You are right however after the way PFA have treated George Adams I dont really have a great deal of concern about its future.

"Dear Editor,

I would call on all PFA inspectors to take note:

The CAA lost another court case in Northern Ireland on October 15th involving a pilot / owner of a home built Kitfox and a PFA inspector. I need not enter into very much detail about the case other than to say that the owner pleaded guilty to what the Crown Court Judge said was a minor offence of failing to make a proper entry in the airframe logbook. The PFA inspector and the owner were charged with “Endangering an aircraft and persons therein” the judge directed the jury to bring not guilty verdicts to this charge in both cases, as the CAA had not proved their case. No defence was necessary and the PFA inspector was told by the judge that he left the court without a stain on his character. The pilot /owner was given a conditional discharge on the “minor charge”.

When the CAA brought forth the above charges, the PFA suspended the inspector. The inspector contacted the PFA insurers to seek help with legal costs. The insurance company refused to cover the legal costs as the charges were “criminal” and not civil. This could mean that if someone were to be killed in a PFA aircraft accident and the inspector was found negligent a charge of manslaughter could be brought which would be criminal. ARE YOU AWARE THAT PFA INSPECTORS ARE NOT COVERED BY PFA INSURANCE AGAINST LEGAL ACTION IF THE CASE IS OF A CRIMINAL NATURE.

The PFA representatives were shoulder to shoulder with the CAA and assisted the CAA to prosecute the above case even though it was revelled in court that the PFA chief inspector and the chief engineer stated to the CAA that the aircraft in question was safe to fly. This case cost in the region of £450,000 and ran for eight days before being stopped by the judge due to lack of evidence. I have two questions; Who is going to hold the CAA to account for wasting money? and Who would want to continue to be a PFA inspector?"

So Tony Ringland can post what ever he likes and you do nothing. So much for free speech on this BB

This board is up, running and has been like that for 8 unbroken years.

Where we interfered with your words we made the intervention both obvious (larger typeface and different colour) and the reasons for it abundantly clear. Something the other board apparently didn't consider worthwhile.

It is also a matter of policy that the PPRuNe EC ( i.e me and Danny) are open to criticism in public - something a few minutes with our search engine will prove again and again.


Rob Lloyd
PFA member since 1978

My goodness the PFA have 2 supporters & slander & libel on PPRuNe

Where are the FACTS from the PFA management if Tony R is so wrong. They could not give him a truthfull answer so they closed the BB for weeks and hoped this would all go away.

I have the court transcript and Tony R has told it as it is.

John

PS. Pinga, I see you still do not say if Lord Trefgarne is a noisy moran or not

Unfortunately some of the posts on the PFA BB went too far and as a result the BBS has been closed for posting to non-members.

Discussion on this board is generally good humoured and uses well reasoned argument without being offensive.

Moderation on PPRuNe is independent and fair minded.

Sadly it seems that the protagonists are unable to carry on their argument here in a civilised manner either. :( :( :(

Mike

And so what if one case didn't hold up? The Crown Prosecution Service has many many cases where a "not guilty" verdict is returned every week! The way British law works is that the facts are presented and it is for the prosecution to prove it's case. In the instance in question it failed to do just that. Would you have the Crown Prosecution Service disbanded for losing a percentage of it's prosecutions. Mybe I shouldn't ask that question because the morons here probably would!:rolleyes:

It may well be that the PFA have good sound reasons for not re-instating Mr Adams.

The fact is and remains that the PFA is a democratic association and there is a right and wrong way of bringing about change. Yes democracy is the value that is cherished by the majority of people including members of the PFA and Mr Adams faced the democratic process of trial. The facts were duly considered and a "not guilty" verdict returned. In a non democratic society, Mr Adams may well have been dragged out of his house and shot dead without the benefit of a trial!

Why do you morons have a problem with the process of British law, why do you morons have a problem with democracy?

Do you think that a true democratic process should be applied in some cases (Mr Adams) but not in other cases (The PFA exec.)?

Why do I waste my time on you people:rolleyes:

It's about time someone put a few facts on this thread. I'm member of the PFA EC, and no I'm not going to say who I am, neither will I necessarily continue to post here, but it's time a few facts were posted.

1. Mr Adams WAS invited to re-apply for his inspectors permit. He has to date not applied.
2. Tony Ringland has consistently attempted to cause mischief for the PFA, and continues to cite the CAA court case. Mr Adams was suspended for bringing the inspection process into disrepute, his behaviour was proved beyond doubt to the EC and engineering, whether or not he was found not guilty in court for specific offences had nothing to do with that.
3. The BB was down for technical reasons, due to the webmaster quitting without even giving notice of his intent.
4. JBQC was another consistent troublemaker on the PFA bb and he's not missed!
5. The EC have put a great deal of effort into righting many of the wrongs mentioned here and on the PFA BB. We are indeed volunteers who believe in the association. It's a pretty thankless task when we are misquoted and libelled by people who consistently snipe away frequently to their own agenda.
6. Lord T could never be called a moron (note the spelling please, illiterate gents) but his letter to the membership was another devisive instrument delivered as a direct result of his not being asked to continue as chairman.

So there, chew on those facts for a while, no doubt a few of you will launch yourselves into the attack, but try and stick to the facts and not turn to flights of fancy!:}

I am Florida based FAA employee and former USAF pilot, and have been reading with interest this thread.

I met Tony Ringland about 10 years ago when I was looking over the fence at a little airport in Donegal Ireland, He was working under an old Cessna 180 on the ramp. He looked up and ask me if I wanted to go for a ride. He took me and My wife for the most wonderful flight through the mountains and along the west coast of Ireland, he would not even take a dime for the flight. I can tell you that he is one of aviation's nice guys and one of the best pilots I have ever met.

We have flown together over here a few times and he is just as happy in our old Cub out of my 900ft dirt strip as he is in my friends C340 at FL200. I would suggest to you all that Tony would only stand up for his friend if there was an injustice done by the PFA.

I have known and flown with the best and I count Tony a true pro and a good friend, so those of you who would tear the fella apart on this BB should wish you had this kinda friend to fight your corner.

John Anderson

It's the PFA's supporters rather than its detractors who are making it look bad here.

Now that they've re-opened their own sandpit perhaps they could all toddle off back there to play.

EC Man, I tend to agree with your sentiments, but perhaps you can enlighten us as to why the PFA seems to have now adopted a policy of taking over the other recreational aviation organisations.

I fear that this will only result in further division, at a time when all representative associations should be working together to defend our priveleges against the inevitable European regulatory onslaught.

Please tell us why this decision has been taken, as I am very curious indeed as to the PFA's reasons for taking this stance.