Instructor/Student Relationship - a failure to communicate?
 

A helicopter instructor friend in the US just sent me a copy of an article from their AOPA Fight Training magazine, with a note saying some articles ought to be read and kept by all of us. I'll quote the first couple of paragraphs:

'Has this ever happened to you? It's a beautiful day. Light winds. Severe clear. There's not even any traffic on your drive to the airport. You arrive at your flight school only to find your instructor absent. No problem, it's happened before; you'll just go out, preflight the airplane, and wait for him to arrive - and wait, and wait, and wait. Finally he hurries out to the airplane straight from the parking lot, jumps in the cockpit, and says: "So what did we cover last time?"
When this happens do you (a) bite your lip and explain to him what happened during your last lesson as your stomach churns with frustration? Or (b) take off your headset and quietly, but directly, tell him that you are really disappointed in his lack of consideration and preparedness, and that you don't want it to happen again?
Well, it's happened to me plenty of times, and I definitely have to answer "a". At least, that's what I did, while I was working on my private pilot certificate. My instructors for subsequent training really wren't allowed as much latitude, although I still had plenty of sore lips. Why is that? If a repairman, auto mechanic, or someone else I am paying to provide a service doesn't deliver to my expectations I'm not shy about telling him or her.'

The rest of the article - and it's long - goes on about students' reluctance to address problems in the cockpit, and asks why. I know myself that this sort of thing happened, and that while I complained in the beginning, I gradually picked up on the sort of general attitude, which was that if you wanted to learn to fly, you just accepted the way things were. But why? I too am not normally backward in saying what I think. I suppose it was a new world, and I knew I had a lot to learn, and I wanted to fit in...but somehow that doesn't explain it really. We are the paying customers; why do so many of us act as though flying schools and instructors are doing us a favour?

Anyway, I just wondered what everyone experienced and/or thinks about this. The author finishes with "Five steps to conflict resolution", which are as follows:

1. Clearly identify what the problem is. As you do this, take an honest look at what part you might be playing in creating the problem. Nobody's perfect.
2. Immediately discuss the problem with your instructor. Make sure you state the problem clearly and don't confuse facts with emotion.
3. Give your instructor a chance to rectify the situation.
4. Agree on a plan of action and a reasonable time frame - and stick to it.
5. if that doesn't work, discuss the situation with his or her supervisor. Nobody likes to go over someone's head, but sometimes it's the only way to get that person's attention.

If you're still not satisfied, you may have to look for another instructor. After all, it's your time and money. No sense in wasting time working with someone who doesn't want to work with you.

Hmm, maybe that last section should be made a sticky for all the students who come on this forum asking about instructor problems.

I considered posting this on the instructors' forum, but finally decided to put it here. If any other instructors who frequent this forum think it's worth it, feel free to post a link over there.

Hell yeah :(

I guess because that level of poor service is normal in GA. If I walked out on a flying school because they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery then I'd have walked out of every flying school within an hour drive of home by now. Ultimately they've got an aeroplane I want to fly, so i've got to put up with the dad's-army style organization...

The best instructors I've had are the sort of people you're happy going out for a beer (or ten) with. In fact all my instructors have been like this, occasionally they have been late, but equally there are days I've phoned in with a stinking hangover to cancel :D There have also been days when we've both been sat in the plane ready to go, and one of us will mention "fancy a beer", and that'd be it, headsets off, and down to the pub :D

Interesting reading Whirly. I’ve flown with 5 instructors, and each had their own little foibles - I think you’d call it being human.

For me, communication is at the heart of the instructor / student relationship (if that’s not stating the obvious). My first instructor was very chatty and communicative, and offered constant feedback and constructive criticism. I learnt an awful lot from her, and I think we performed very effectively as a team. The next one had a tendency to say nothing until I did something wrong, and although I could follow his logic (if I’m not broke, don’t try and fix me) the result was that most of his comments were quite negative.

As I was in the latter stages of PPL training and reasonably self-confident, this didn’t bother me too much, but I could imagine how it could knock a low hours student – particularly someone who wasn’t too confident in the first place. I could also sense the potential for conflict had I been someone who responded badly to criticism.

I was quite philosophical, and figured that as a commercial pilot I’d have to fly with a whole range of personalities in any case, so I might as well get used to it. And of course, an approach that worked with me might have been wrong for someone else – it’s horses for courses. However, if I go down the instructing route, it has certainly given me an awareness that effective communication is vital to making sure the student gets the most out of the experience.

Whirlybird

People put up with this c**p quite simply because the utterly decrepit GA scene doesn't attract discerning customers.

Most of the people that do turn up to learn to fly are desperate to fly - at least until the novelty wears off. Most of them can't really afford to fly anyway; if they could they would insist on much higher standards.

But if you run a typical flying school, count yourself lucky (in a bizzare sort of way): if all of your customers were discerning, you would end up with almost no students and would go bust as quickly as it takes you to hit your overdraft limit.

If anyone disagrees with this, I would like to hear a reasoned argument.

Englishal,

Surely not...you fly then you beer...your priorities are
sadly inverted,

-- Andrew

Yea, you don't beer then fly, that would be dumb. However, have you never reached been "all flown out" and actually started to get p*ssed off at having to fly? Try 4 hrs of instrument training per day for 2 weeks, then you'll know what I mean :D

Seen yer

How many schools hand out a form during or at the end of your training along the lines of:

We value your feedback
Please tell us how we could improve things
A set of questions which you can rate an answer of 1 to 5 with
1 = Excellent and 5 = pi$$ poor

What did you really like about your lesson today
What did you really dislike about your lesson today
How could we make your learning experience more enjoyable?
Would you recommend any of your friends to us (if not, why?)

I learnt to fly last year. For the main, I enjoyed the whole experience and I aim to do more this year subject to funds of course, but if you look at learning to fly in the bigger context of your paying somebody else for a service, no matter what it is, then things could be vastly improved.

Only experienced it once, in the USA strangely enough.

The instructor was meant to be converting me to complex type and was a laid back 'surf dude' more interested in the wave conditions than the flying - the briefings did not give me what I needed, and the debrief was truncated (I do like to reflect and learn this way.).

After a disappointing first day I had a reasonable discussion with him and explained why I wanted things to be different the next day.

There was no change, so I went to his boss and asked for a different instructor, stressing that I wasn't doubting the bloke's ability, but thought that we were not ideally matched in temperament and that it would not work out.

I was assigned a different instructor, with whom I had a very productive 5 hours of flying and still managed to have a farewell beer with the original instructor, who was a nice guy.

I'd like to support a point made in MikeeB's post: namely that FTOs should seek, actively, feedback from their successful and unsuccessful students. It's only in this way that continuing improvement may be discerned and effected.

I have no complaints about the school I attended, nor about the standard of instruction or attitude of instructors. I am, however, someone who has undertaken much training over the course of my life, both formal and informal, leading to many examinations and qualifications. In several fields, I now also train others, both one-to-one and in groups, and I also examine. I feel, therefore, that I have been able to understand the nature of training given to me, and to extract what I need from it - even if it is not as polished an exercise as it might be.

It would seem to me that a substantial number of people attracted to flying, and willing to seek to part with substantial sums in order to qualify as pilots, are probably used, in their professional lives outside flying, to sophisticated training methods, aids, and techniques. The impression is that many FTOs are perhaps 20 years behind in these matters.

(I hasten to add that the most significant feature of sophisticated training lies in the attitude of instructors, and the environment of instruction. It does not necessarily lie in the complexity, and expense, of instructional aids. There is not, therefore, necessarily, a requirement for FTOs to spend a great deal of capital.)

An empirical view of commercially available training aids reveals a certain amateurishness of production values. (I have not reviewed, for my purposes, the latest CBT aids on offer, but some videotape aids, or some literature, which I have seen seem to fall into this category.)

A first step, for all FTOs, in achieving a level of customer satisfaction in advance of their current levels must be to understand the perception of them formed by their students. This needs systematically to be gathered.

My personal experience is that, whilst individual instructors are generally interested in feedback, the organizations themselves are somewhat less interested.

I'd like to urge all FTOs meaningfully and actively to consult with their students: formally to do so will not only provide valuable information for the FTO, but will also aid the student (customer) to form the perception that they are dealing with a professional organization which takes its task seriously.

DRJAD

There is a commercial risk in lanching evaluation, namely that the customers start to think about the service and may become dissatisfied as a result.

I'm in the consulting and education business and always seek formal and informal feedback, but then again I am very confident of my services and products.

How confident are some flying schools?

F3G,

I believe, strongly, that, carried out carefully and professionally, the benefits of feedback surveys would outweigh the risk.

W.r.t. the confidence flying schools have in their training operations, this is my point precisely: many seem to wish to give the impression that they are not confident in their product.

(Whilst the quality of training is the paramount issue, how often does one see badly worded, or insufficiently detailed, 'promotional' material {either printed, or upon the WorldWideWeb}, insalubrious reception areas, obsolete equipment left in situ, an attitude amongst desk staff that the casual enquirer should 'know what to ask for', etc., etc.? These matters all militate against the student, and, in particular, the potential customer, regarding the training to be had as of high quality.)

There is also a commercial risk that if things stay as they are, numbers will drop and schools will go out of business due to Joe Public thinking that GA training is a farse.

I would hazzard a guess that currently the dissatisfied punter either walks away to another school or walks away from learning to fly completely. Who does that help?

It is a very short sighted view of a company in any field or service to exercise an ignorance of the paying customers perception of it.

To follow on, a mid 20's-30's guy (or girl) has good job and plenty of spare cash to spend on recreational activities. Some will pi$$ it up the wall every weekend (as I used to), some will buy an expensive motor, some will go on holiday to far and wide places, some will buy a motorbike (and do trackdays ;) etc. etc. In the car example, they pay 20-30k+ for a car, get a new one every 2-3 years and have an image that goes with that.
Is it cool to fly an aeroplane, or even own one? It might be to a small minority, but I'm afraid to say, a lot of people think having a M3 on the drive is a much better "icon".

So what am I saying (as I appear to be going off topic)......

Flying is seen as ever so slightly "geekish" and this problem can probably be traced back to the standard of clubs, schools and instruction. Schools need to attract new blood to the realms of GA, but having an instructor turn up late for a lesson, not turn up at all, not know what you've done before, not know what your supposed to be doing, not know how to teach etc. does nothing to help. The only people who will put up with this are those with a childhood interest in learning to fly. The guy with his £47k M3 will get his "customer experience" from driving his car, and taking it for service, where he will be offered a cup of coffee, given somewhere nice to sit, a courtesy car, offered a lift to work/home, given a phone call to say what's going on etc. etc. etc.

I'm sure some people will disagree with my thinking, but were it not for my 'wanting' to fly, then sometime in the next few months, I'd have something like a Skyline R34 V-Spec, STi8, M3 or an M5 on the drive, I'd not do my IMC and certainly not bother trying to learn aero's this year.

If I get poor instruction in either I may walk away from flying and take the fast car/bike route.

Sorry to waffle BTW :)

Another line of attack is the current proliferation of speed camera's. A lot of people drive fast cars, or ride fast bikes to get a buzz. However the opportunity to go fast and get a buzz is now becoming confined to trackdays.

Some fresh thinking is what's needed !!!!!

MikeeB

There was a thread here along these lines some weeks ago. The issue is actually pretty evident to any non-aviation businessperson who stumbles upon an airfield. The business badly needs to attract customers who have real money.

But GA is stuffed with traditionalists - from taildragger and antique type owners on farm strips all the way to the top at the GA Dept of the CAA. Just look at the fight which gets put up over GPS. Have you tried to mention GPS at one of those CAA safety evenings, and seen the emotions expressed in the (mostly 60+) audience? You can get GPS fitted in a much cheaper car than an M3.

And GPS usage is just a very small beginning of the modernisation which is badly needed. What you are really looking at is new modern planes - serious money.

IO540, could not agree with you more.

The "traditionalists" are the people that will kill general avaiation in the end. Why is GPS "evil" why is the wheel at the "wrong" end on a tricycle gear aircraft why is a transponder interfering with civil liberties.

Because GA is riddled with people from before time was recorded who are unprepared to change. They sit in crew rooms and on forums like this telling others how it should be done the "proper way".

I have a friend who has just bought a C152, fantastic condition with a great engine. News seats and dash etc. He has just spent £10k on avionics including a GNS 430. Why? because he wants modern avionics that work properly and give him proper situational awareness. He is not prepared to put up with the crap placarded put of use avionics in a school aircraft but neither does he want a high speed "glass ship" to cross half the planet in. He wants to spend a couple of hours on a summers afternoon cruising his way to the channel Islands and north France enjoying the flight and having no worries of infringing air space or having controllers not hear him because of a crap radio.

It is time that GA understands that the customers with the money want the same gadgets in the aircraft they fly as the car they drove to the airport in. Who wants to sit and twiddle the knobs on an analouge King 170 or RT385.

Even an aging old spam can like a 152 with some good avionics and a decent interior are a pleasure to fly.

Give me a DA40 or SR22 with a glass cockpit and I would happily pay more to fly.

IO540/bose-x

Bit more tolerance towards others, chaps. I'm not going to defend the GPS-bashing "traditionalists" that you so dislike, but you're not coming across any better.

There's room for all sorts in GA. Personally a C152 isn't my cup of tea, IFR-d or otherwise. Give me an old taildragger or something aerobatic any day (or both at the same time :) ). I drive to the aerodrome in a new car full of satnav and electronic driving aids, personally I don't want it in the aeroplane. But I'm not going to moan about someone that does.

Don't think I'm killing general aviation, and at 29 i'm not one of your 60+ "traditionalists" either. And I understand business, it's my job. Flying is a hobby. If anything will kill general aviation, it's this us vs. them, we're right, you're wrong, attitude you both seem so fond of. There are enough issues without people infighting.

(edit: I think I just took the bait... :rolleyes: ;) )

Sorry Evo my comment was not meant to be an us/them statement. I don't care what end the wheel is on an aeroplane and I don't think that everyone should be forced into a GPS.

What I don't like is being told by people that you are not a a proper pilot if you fly a nosewheel or use a GPS and that sentiment is far more common than the one of lets move into the at least the present if not the future.

Take a look at many of the threads here when people ask for advice, the comments are always the same, "buy a proper aircraft with the wheel in the right place" etc etc.

Some people might just like the simplicity of flying a "simple" aeroplane and having some gadgets that help there situational awareness and feel demeand when told to go out learn to fly a proper aeroplane.

Lets face it a draughty 50 year aircraft that is requires "more" skill to fly is not everyones cup of tea!!! Nor is stomache churning there way around the sky doing aerobatics!

And for the record I like all of it and don't care which end the steering wheel is or which way is up. Contrary to your comments I am trying to be tolerant of all desires!

There is, but less immediate than seeking feedback, if you wish to take an Ostrich view.

Agreed, but see comment above.

I'm not defending poor business practices and PPL numbers have been declining ever since I got my licence years ago, but ....... there is an inertia built into the system, I tend to think based on the poor profitability of FBO businesses, many of which are labours of love.

BTW, I have connection with anyone running an aviation business ;)

And a sorry from me too... long day, and out comes the soapbox :rolleyes: ;)

My fear is that GA will follow sailing (esp. yachting). Ten years ago when I did a lot there still seemed to be room for everyone. Now, at least where I am, it is almost totally a rich mans hobby, where the social scene (full of the "right people" of course), latest GPS and radio are more important than wind and sea. Sound familiar? Maybe it makes more money than it did, but it's a lot worse for it. IMHO, of course:{

Evo,

Yes, you've taken the bait :O

There is room for everybody, of course. Just as there is room for an owner of an antique car - nobody is suggesting that he should not drive it a few times a year just because the dual carriageway he drives on was paid for (in part, perhaps) by people who drive to work every day.

But try this: look at your local airfield (I could have picked a bad example but this is the general idea) and find out where its money comes from. Then look at how many people are doing PPL training (the CAA website has some figures but not very recent ones; for those you need to go ask a few school owners, privately...).

The traditionalists will indeed kill off GA. Not intentionally and not even through their presence. They will kill it off by ACTIVELY ensuring that, at every opportunity, it continues to look like a WW2 movie, with WW2 aircraft, with WW2 navigation, you name it. This prevents new people who can actually afford to fly fairly regularly being attracted.

But nobody is aware of this, because these people don't walk in, look around, say what they don't like, and walk out. What they do is they look in the sky and see WW2 planes rattling around. They sometimes drop in at the local airfield, see more WW2 planes rattling around; they politely smile and walk away.

Your sailing comment is interesting - why do you think the less affluent have dropped out of it?

What about a flying club that has fancy new aircraft, AND old ones, and can teach you to fly any or all of them, and which welcomes you whoever you are and gives you coffee, whose instructors arrive on time and think the paying customer is important, where anyone from 16 to 90 can do a PPL or a taildragger conversion or just sit around and watch the aircraft but is still welcomed.

Well, i always was a dreamer....

No surprises, although where I live may bias it a bit. In many ways boat ownership seems very similar to GA, although i've never looked at the bills in detail so i don't have quite the same insight. There's usually someone trying to cut their losses and get out, so cheap boats can be found and it's easy enough to buy in, but berthing charges, like hangarage, are high and it seems to me that maintainance (and possibly insurance) are even more expensive than GA. The result is that the fixed costs haemorrhage money and it becomes hard to justify. Then there's supply and demand. There's lots of money around, as you know. There's also limited space, so attract the big spenders and up go the prices. Fixed costs go up even more, and suddenly you've priced the low end out of the market.

It's all fine from a business point of view, the people who struggle to afford it weren't making you much money anyway. However, it replaces the people who struggle to afford it for the love of it with people who do it to fit the marketing that got them there in the first place. Business-wise it makes sense, but it's not such a nice place to be (edit: IMHO, of course ;) )

Whirly

No reason indeed why not. I think the reason why it isn't likely to happen (even if the owner of the operation did obtain that mixture of aircraft) is that you won't attract the more discerning clients needed to fly the modern aircraft unless you advertise that you have modern aircraft, and do so pretty directly. This is going to mightily upset any operators of old planes in the area (i.e. just about everybody) and in GA there often isn't a great deal of love lost between adjacent schools as it is. Also if you do advertise them explicitly you will in effect be saying that the 1970s Cessnas you have are a pile of junk...

Evo

I suspect it varies according to the area. I have a number of very active sailing friends and they say it hasn't really changed that much - unless you use an upmarket marina which caters only for the gin palaces. There are still plenty of cheaper marinas. They also point out that some French company made it a lot more popular by bringing out boats which you could move about in...

But berthing isn't directly comparable to aircraft parking. A lot of planes live out on grass, and I think most airfields have enough room outdoors. It's hangarage that's a problem if anything, and that costs the same for a new plane as for an old one - a packet. So most older planes live outdoors.

Every leisure activity will have limits; sailing's limits are the near total lack of utility (5-10kt) and the vast amount of time involved, and how much you spend on the boat. Flying is limited mainly by weather, and how much you spend on the plane and training. In sailing, no training is required and there is negligible regulation, so modern methods/equipment are adopted if they work and can be afforded, without anyone being able to stop it. In aviation there is a lot of training and it's tightly regulated, so it's easy to hold up progress almost no matter how much money people have.

Whirly:

Surely you're young enough to start your own school like that ?

:D

Nr Fairy,

Nice idea! With helicopters too of course. And while we're about it, microlights, gyroplanes, and anything else interesting that flies. Now all I need is an airfield, instructors...and MONEY.

But to get back to the main point of this thread, I disagree with all this stuff about fancy aircraft and facilities and so on being what people want. I've heard to the same argument about why so few women learn to fly. Now, when I first walked into Welshpool Flying School, with no idea what to expect, I thought it would be like your average sailing club, which as an ex keen windsurfer I knew about, ie fancy cars, lush surroundings etc etc. I was surprised to see clapped out old cars and a portacabin type building. But none of it mattered because I was greeted with a big smile, given lots of info, and told to call any time if I wanted to book a trial lesson. When I booked that trial lesson my instructor was there, and was friendly, efficient and helpful. I liked that, and carried on...unfortunately he left and things went from bad to worse, but that's another story.

But the point I'm making is: what people want when they're learning to fly is SERVICE!!! Any intelligent person knows that they can buy a big fancy aircraft if they want once they have a licence, a cheaper one if they don't; if not, a few questions will tell them. I found that all out very early on, and I was the most aviation-ignorant non-technically minded person who ever set foot in a flying school - all I wanted to do at the time was find something exciting to do to get myself out of my longterm gloom and apathy caused by a death in the family and my own ill-health.

What every flying school needs is owners, staff, and instructors who put the students first. The rest is secondary. And to get back to the point of the article, which as you'll have gathered really struck a chord with me, why oh why aren't we insisting on it? Is it the British mustn't grumble mentality or what?

Whirly definitely is young enough to start a school like that, and when I get my FI(R) I'd be more than happy to work for her. We do need more schools like that!

As for:I disagree. It all depends how you phrase it. How about, just as an example:

"Whether you would like to train in modern, high-tech aircraft with state-of-the-art navigation equipment, or a classic open-cockpit aircraft such as the Tiger Moth, or anything in between, we have the aircraft to suit your needs."

Prices would, of course, reflect the aircraft, so that those who want modern equipment would pay for it, and those who can't afford modern equipment would still be welcomed too.

Now, all we need is a bit of funding, a few more willing instructors, and an airfield to base ourselves out of......

FFF
--------------

Part of it is the British don't complain, a part is that the people who get attracted to the scene are so keen to fly they don't care.

When saying these things, people tend to take them personally, but those already inside the business are not seeing it from the outside. It is the view from the outside which determines who will walk in, and the people presently walking in just happen to not be too bothered.

You say "Any intelligent person knows that they can buy a big fancy aircraft if they want once they have a licence" but then why do so many people moan about the cost of flying? Anybody who gets that far can add-up, which means they can work out on day 1 they won't be able to afford it in the long term.

IO540

Other factors you need to consider in your argument is the cost of compliance with regulation, relatively high interest rates in the UK compared to the rest of the world and also economies of scale for non commercially oriented schools.

These all impact on the smaller flying schools.

Whirly.

I agree entirely with your proposition: the customer/student requires service.

We have been debating issues around mechanism: surveys, etc.. The central issue, though, is to manage the perception created of GA in such a way as to make it an attractive proposition for many differing types of people.

Of course there will be those who seek a nostalgic experience, just as there will be those who seek, at, perhaps, the other end of the scale, an experience redolent of the latest technological aids. Both should be encouraged, with all those who lie between the extremes. They will not, however, be encouraged by a laissez-faire attitude, by poorly presented facilities, by a casual attitude to punctuality, by a similarly casual attitude to the techniques of teaching and human communication, etc., etc..

These items are not necessarily expensive to improve, but, if the activity is to continue and grow, must be addressed.

I think flying schools could do a lot more to generate new business. For example, how many people outside of avaition do you know who've even heard of the NPPL? I also think a lot are put off by the quality of planes available. Having tatty (even though well maintained) planes is inexcusable.

Also, I don't think about it now, but the first time I had carb heat explained to me, I thought, "What the ****'s going on"? Fuel injection has been around for God knows how long and you're still using carburetters - even though they can kill you?". This is musuem technology - Morgan cars might look good, but how many people drive them? Wobbling about on the motorway with drum brakes 50 years after ABS was invented is very much a minority pastime. Training planes should be new(ish), comfortable and modern. And for people whose knowledge of planes stretches to being able to identify Concorde and Spitfires - let's face it, Cessnas are pig-ugly.

All this costs money obviously, but an increase in potential flyers = an increase in revenue.

(Sorry for the tangent Whirly - you're right, bad service in whatever form is unacceptable, but I thought the British were starting to grow out of their 'mustn't grumble' attitude).

As a long-time instructor who has flown many different types of aircraft, I get a great deal of pleasure teaching in brand new clean aeroplanes but equally enjoy occasionally flying the old ones. This post started on the communication problem, but possibly one explanation could be that the guy who can afford all these gadgets and aspires to own and fly a new aeroplane has earned his money by being successful and not putting up with **** from anyone. Entering the world of GA may be a bit of a time warp to some, but the student might just get better service if he was to recognise that the instructor has had to go through an enormous financial struggle to get to be an instructor and deserves to be treated as a professional, yet the **** pay he is receiving is only allowing him to drive around in an old banger or even to get to work on a rusty pushbike.

There is thus a huge disparity between student and instructor. Often it seems that the student thinks that the instructor is paid well because the lesson is costing over £100 per hour, when the reality is that the instructor who has shelled out £60K to get to being an instructor is lucky to make £8000 per year. And that is working 7 days a week. So that is why the instructor is sometimes late as he has to fit in other bits of life such as domestic errands sometime....

Lady

With the very greatest of respect, if the client is paying £100 per hour then punctuality should be a given.

The 'student' is probably experiencing an opportunity cost of another £100 per hour on top of the fees in not doing what they would nornally do and is being punished for being professional and arriving on time - would the instructor like to be kept waiting?

As to serving a low paid apprenticeship, most of us have done that and invested a lot of money in our education both directly (e.g. for me 1 UK post grad programme, 2 in the US and a masters degree in the UK and a globally recognised vocational qualification, all self funded - and not cheap.) I also worked long hours for peanuts in my twenties to tee up my 30s and 40s.

It is a personal decision and I do not consider instructors to be any different to other professionals in this respect - its a back loaded, risky, enterprise and many more will not captain widebodies, than will, but everyone should know the position at the start.

Also, let me point out that many instructors are also benefitting by hours building funded by the student, a main driver for wannabees.

Lady in red

Couldn't have put it better myself :O

However - if an instructor has spent £60k, surely he/she is aiming for an airline job and will clear off the instant one turns up. Instructing is just a subsidised route to an ATPL, for someone who doesn't have the cash to do it the full-time training route but has a few years to play with.

Nobody would spend £60k to become a PPL instructor - would they??

PINKSTER HERE POPPING IN.
 

If you mean by cost, then yep! Cost me and my brother £3500 to keep our yacht in a Marina (no alternative), and thats before any extra c**p like winter storage, anti foul, maintenance....Call it £5000 per year. Hmm, almost the cost of operating a PA28...So I sold my half eventually :(

Only someone with no business sense would run up £60k in debt to become an instructor. I think the £60k debt person has the ulterior motive of becoming an airline pilot, being paid a decent salary.

There is no need, if you want to become a career instructor, get a job, pay for your flying in chunks, and then enter the world of instructing 3 years later with no debt.

Unless of course you are aiming for a RHS of a Boeing.....

EA

Pinkster

Welcome to the world of the Terrorhawk - look at the door latches on some ..... the're made of thick wire.

And the tail waggles like **** if you spin them, but surprisingly you survive the experience.

And the Terrorhawk is one of the more modern bits of kit on the GA fleet first produced in the mid 70s.

You won't be 'sucked out' because there's a bit of light around the door and the experience in a R22 is even more focusing of one's attention in this regard (your view Whirly??)

Things stuck together with sticking plaster would make me think though - are you absolutely certain this was true and it was not an approved repair that looked like it?

Pinkster

The PA38 was, I believe, made for only two years around 1980, with production stopped due to adverse publicity following a number of fatal accidents. Why flying schools in the UK operate the type I don't know. For starters, many people who train in them will be unable to get access to the type after they get their PPL (very few about) so it's a waste of the student's money for that reason alone.

I've got about 25 hrs in the PA38 and remember well the engine cowling latches which hang on by their fingernails :O It has a very exciting stall which is used by instructors to support training in it ("proper stall behaviour").

Englishal

I pay £4000/year for hangarage, but this could be halved by parking on grass (and accepting the rotting plane and rotting avionics).

I don't think sailing can be compared to GA (for the purpose of working out why GA is suffering from lack of participants) because the profile of the people is so different - sailing requires a vast amount of time to get into properly but requires no training and no ability to pass exams, understand technical things, etc.

emmmmmmmmmmmmm
 

PA38

Made from 1978-1982 - 5 years

Hmmmm

After completing Yachtmaster exams I turned to powerboats and found that there were exams there too......to hire a boat whilst on holiday you have to produce an ICC (International certificate of competence).

There is a definite worry in the sailing fraternity that Tony Blairs boys are considering the introduction of mandatory exams for sailors.


So not quite true that there are no exam requirements in sailing, just British sailing.


And now I'm 2/45ths towards a PPL......