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Does anyone on this thread know who overflew the Swan Hotel at Newby Bridge yesterday at around 1500hrs, Low winged, single engine fixed u/c white in colour.

If you do, please would you drop me a line on the Private mx system on PPrune, all replys will be in strict confidence.

Vfrpilotpb

Many Regards
Peter R-B

[email protected]

I'm curious, why do you want to know ? Just admiring the aircraft or looking to report someone ?

Dewdrop,

Not wishing to be too rude on the first day of the year, If, and that is a very big IF, I could find this A/c and subsquently the P1 on that day, I will personally remove his testicles, that would be better than any reporting to the authorities, the Pilot is a W**ker, big style, :mad:

Nice to see you starting the new year with a positive attitude to your fellow pilots.......Not!

Believe it or not, in that unpopulated part of the world, the pilot was probably not doing anything illegal.

Reminds me of the story about the Welsh farmer who got fed up with military jets flying (quite legally) near his farm at 250ft. He painted in big white letters "PI$$ OFF BIGGLES" on the roof of the barn.....Funny, this attracted even more pilots wanting to have a look.

Happy New Year

Zlin,

I am normally very placid, but sadly your comment about "Nothing illegal in that part of the world" is very wrong, if you had been sat in the hover as we were when some uneducated moron who calls himself a Pilot flys over a known heli park at less than treetop height, then possibly you may feel the same as I do, although not being a legal eagle I would say this tosser endangered His own A/c, the Gazelle in the hover, and possible the 200 odd people who would be milling around the hotel complex at that time, it would be easy to "drop a dime" but on this occasion more direct action would make me feel better!:mad:

Which chart is this 'known' heli park shown on ??? Can't find it on my Half Mil. Unfortunately in Class G airspace without an ATZ you have no God given right to protection from any other airspace user. It's 'see and be seen' for all parties. In this case you saw the other aircraft and thus did not collide with it. Another success for this not 100% fail safe system.

To be legal, the fixed wing pilot would only have to maintain 500' separation (vertical, horizontal, or combination of both) from any person, structure, etc. Thus as Zlin stated, it is quite possible that the pilot was operating totally legally.

It may also have been a military aircraft flying a low flying training profile (Grob Tutor for example), in which case other low flying rules come in to force. The ANO also exempts military aircraft.

If you are really that concerned then why not file an Airprox report ?? It would investigate all the issues and bring lessons to everyone.

I can understand your anger - we have all gone "Fxxxing Idiot!" when our life has been threatened but you seem to be on a witchhunt.

Did any of the 200 or so milling around at the hotel see what happened?

Would be amazed if no-one got it on video or on camera.

File an airprox - you owe it to others.

I read, and understand what you are all saying, for clarity I will list the facts:

The A/c was not Military it was low winged, single engine, and painted all white, with fixed u/c, it could have come from EGNH or EGNL or EGNC possibly even EGGP or EGNM they are all within that range for "fun Flying"

The Swan at Newby bridge is a very well known watering hole possible not down south, but up here int North it is well known and handles a lot of Heli traffic from visitors.

The Swan its self sits at about 40ft AMSL, the buildings are about 50 to 55ft high, the heli park at the rear covers about 3 to 4 acres, trees at the very end are about 60/80ft

The A/c flew in from the Barrow In Furnace direction, passed over the Swan at roughly 80/100 ft then had to climb to miss the trees at the rivers edge, after the trees, it then came down to around 30/40ft from the lakes surface.

I keep looking but cannot find in any of my books where it is legal to fly at that height over houses (alongside the River Leven) and then over this newly White painted big sticky out Hotel.

Is this is normal in the Fw community ?

For he read He/she(pilot)

I think this was an outrageous piece of flying, that given a few more seconds could have led to a terminal incident, would it look good for either Heli or F/w flyers if that had happened?

Somebody out there in the small flying community in the North will know who this pilot is,

Bright Ling, Nah not a witch hunt, but the pilot/ess needs a severe Ear bashing!

Legal or not, it's never a good idea flying so low, for quite a number of reasons.

If it had been a practice forced landing, then I could understand it, and why the pilot might not have noticed the hotel. However from reading vfr's description, he seems to indicate that the aircraft flew at this height for some time.

Maybe the rotar pilot should also have had a better lookout before attempting to take off.

However at the end of the day, there is no good reason for flying so low just for fun. Of course there is always the possibility that this was not for fun, and that maybe they had some problem, and only got it sorted at the last second.

However as a community, I think we can sometimes be too quick to jump to someones defence and say something is not illegal, when clearly it is not safe, and does nothing for the cause of GA freedoms. We should not be condoning unsafe flying.

dp

Copied from the Rotary Forum Post:
_________________________________________________
PB - Have you considered posting this in the "Private Flying" forum, perhaps with a change to the title so that the lesser mortals will be interested in reading it? You never know, someone there might know who your "ace" might be...

______________________________________________

Well us "lesser mortals" have to remember that helicoptor pilots own the skies and so anything that upsets them is indeed newsworthy..............

We have all had near misses and we all make mistakes from time to time. Seems to me that you successfully implemented see and avoid so no foul. If your knickers are really that twisted then file an airprox and let them sort it out.

Dublipilot: We did not SEE the event so are hardly condoning it or are we able to pass comment on it by taking one irrate persons word.

Lets not jump on the bandwagon handing out judgement when the facts are all one sided.

Happy New Year.




:E :E

You mean like a Military Grob Tutor? ;)

Vfrpilotwhatever,

Newby Bridge is in Class G airspace. And the Swan Hotel is not marked on any of my charts as an active helipad. Therefore you and the other pilot were operating on the 'see and avoid' principle. Looks like it was sorted out at the time, but obviously not to your high standards of airmanship. . Bose-X has got it spot on about rotary pilots.

If I posted a thread on Prune every time some twit had annoyed me over the last 20 years of flying in the UK, I'd have enough material to write a book! Volume 2 would be about rotary pilots who don’t care about rotor downwash..

What if I admitted to it? What are you going to do about it?

Chill out and enjoy the freedom of Class G airspace while you can. File an Airprox or MOR if you are that concerned by it, and see where it goes. Can’t see the CAA or Airprox board doing much about it, especially as you don’t know what the other aircraft was. Sounds like you need to come down south on a busy weekend to see how ‘See and Avoid’ works.



Dublinpilot,

Who said it was unsafe??? And who said we were condoning it? My point is that we shouldn’t be using Pprune as a 'dobbing-in' forum for those who annoy us when airborne.

Have a nice day :ok:

Speaking of legality, I wonder if this Gazelle with three people on board was on a C of A or a permit.

It was me and you are a liar, 700' on the QNH then down over the lake.

So now you can just pi55 off .

Fly Stimulator,

Full 5 seats and on Cof A,


CIM,

If it was indeed you, then sir you are a top class Wa**er, and a stranger to the truth, your height was as described, so I suspect you are not realy the one.
But if you insist you are, then post a PM to me with your address I ll come and talk to you!

So what you going to do vfrpb, beat the crap out of him? Will it make you feel better? Will it solve anything?

I bet you argued with your fists as a kid as well?

In a test of Professional aviators carried out a few years ago not one of them could correctly identify the height of a low flying aircraft, but a guess rotary pilots have super natural senses or built in radar alitimeters.....

Jut to cap off, all of the rotary pilots I learnt with all thought it was the macho thing to talk about there low flying exploits and how carrying wire cutters was more essential than a map. I guess it is why I spend more time being a "lesser mortal" these days than "owning" the skies! No one is perfect.

Or to quote: "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Learn to live in a lesson than perfect world mate or find a new hobby.

:E :cool:

Vfrpilotpb

Sorry, I must have mis-set the altimeter while having a W**K then.

Chill out man and get a life.

C-I-M

Just found this thread and so have had the benefit of reading it all through dron start to finish in one go and I have to say I am left feeling slightly saddened.

OK, so maybe Vfrpilotpb is over reacting - but as none of us was actually there at the time, we can't know just how sphincter-clenching an event it was. Come on, can you honestly say that you have never been in a situation, aviation related or otherwise, where your intsant reaction hasn't been 'kill!', I know I have, although I like to think I have mellowed a little over the years :) .

What saddens me most, though, is the cavalier attitude to an apparent illegality. Now, forgive me, it is a long time since I sat Air Law but I believe it is illegal to fly closer than 500ft to any person or man made object unless landing or taking off. Actually, I am not really that bothered about any illegality per se but no one seems to have commented on the reactions of any non-aviators on the ground. There are many people out there who do not like us aviators, for whatever reason, and this is exactly the sort of thing that they will latch onto in their campaign to have us all grounded.

I'm all for having fun and I may well have bent a few rules in my time :O so my purpose here is not necessarily to condemn this pilot but just to wonder how so many other pilots can readily overlook the threat to their hobby.

By the way, don't bother posting insults in reply, I frankly don't care. If you want a reasoned debate then that's fine.

Happy New Year and safe, fun flying.

Aiglon

I forgot to add a point in my post above and it seems I am too late to edit it - I still haven't got used to all the quirks of these forums yet :)

The point was, this aircraft seems to have had no markings, or at least none that anyone couls see. Most, if not all, the aircraft I have seen have had markings of some kind, including - I suspect - military trainers.

Aiglon

I forgot to add a point in my post above and it seems I am too late to edit it - I still haven't got used to all the quirks of these forums yet :)

The point was, this aircraft seems to have had no markings, or at least none that anyone couls see. Most, if not all, the aircraft I have seen have had markings of some kind, including - I suspect - military trainers.

Aiglon

Bose-X and CiM

Great to fly to one end of the Country, and then fly low, low enough to make others think your going in, our initial thoughts were concern for the A/c and occupants who we thought had a life threatening problem with the low height being flown, in fact two of the Pilot occupants of the Heli did think we were going to see a sad event , had that been the case we would have been first on site and helping or offering immediate assistance, but when the A/c ddropped lower then started to fly away our concern quiet rightly turned to anger at the situation that could have been, I think a three bladed rotor driven by a 800Shp turbine would chew very easily through the bottom of any PA28 or whatever, sadly though in the process live would be extinguished, all because some body thought Class G airspace allowed you to fly where you liked.

As for your comments Bose-X I ll put it to you, physical stuff has never been a worry to me I can give it , but whats more I can take it, what I can also take is critisism if I F**ck up, but it seems that you people cannot, it seems that you will defend a pilot who puts other at risk.

If you really want we that is the three pilot on the heli concerned will file an airprox, we also have now two people at the Hotel who saw what happened, that makes five people who could help to hang some-one, but I would rather talk to some-one rather than inccur the power of the authorities. tell what you would do?

I'm totally mystified as to the attitudes of some people on this thread.:confused:

VFRpilotpb thought he saw someone flying dangerously low, and wants to talk to the person concerned. Well, either he did or he didn't. If he did, wanting to talk to them seems a reasonable reaction, (while wanting to kill them seems quite understandable and human too). If he didn't - well, so he got the height wrong. Doesn't sound like a flaming/hanging offence to me. But while it's hard to estimate if someone was below 1500 ft (famously proved in some court case when someone was accused of breaking the congested area rule), you can tell if they're at around 100 or 200 ft. And even in Class G airspace we do have a 500 ft rule...any of you ever heard of it?

Vfrpilotpb posted here a couple of days before someone on Rotorheads made the unfortunate comment about "lesser mortals". I suspect they meant it as an in joke. We're like that in Rotorheads. It's probably a reaction to all the comments we put up with about helicopters...so ugly the earth repels them etc etc etc. But that's hardly a hanging offence either.

Maybe we should stop the name calling and discuss whether the best thing to do is:
a) Try to find the pilot and talk to him/her.
b) File an airprox
c) Do nothing, and accept that there are idiots around.

If I were Vfrpilotpb, I'd do both 1 and 2. I'd let others decide if I was right or wrong, after I'd tried to do something about it. I would certainly do SOMETHING! Idiots in the air are dangerous!!!!!

Hi Chaps,

What I can't understand is if five people on the ground saw the aircraft flying at less than 100' - how come no-one could see the registration or even recognise the aircraft type?

Nah... there is more to this story than meets the eye. Frankly, someone is not telling the truth here and I'm not sure that an internet forum is the right place for this. I think the moderator should delete this thread

Kingy

Whirly, I like you also fly Rotary so am not commenting from a FW view only.

My point was that VFRPB started this with the witch hunt and the threats of violence. Even his last comment is full of macho hardman bul!!!! of how he can give and take a "kicking". Who cares?

My point was if he did not like what he saw file an airprox not threaten to "sort out" the culprit on an internet forum!

And my post neither criticised OR condoned the alleged infringer, which is my point, we DO NOT know ALL the facts so should not be making comment. Leave it to the airprox boys or VFR can write it down to experiance. Either way threating to do someone over is hardly mature beahaviour. Personally I question someones judgement as an aviator who is so hot headed and apparantly violence prone. What next?

... I ve also discovered that rotary pilots views aren't welcome in this forum if it opposes a FW pilots' view! :(

...wish I was that good I could see and avoid ANY other traffic at that altitude.

... I don't reconise most FW types or a lot of rotary types for that matter - why should a member of the public or 3 pilots who think they are about to die? As for the reg - again if you thought this machine was going to crash would you be trying to read the reg?

VFRPB gets slated for a 'cavalier' and 'threatening' attitude but are CIM remarks and many others really constructive? Or just as reactionary as the way VFRPB feels at a potential life threating incident?

HAD they collided how many here would have slated the FW pilot instead of defending him/her?

Perhaps VFRPB is concerned about bad press we rotary pilots already get. When was the last time a light aircraft incident/accident made national news? Every helicopter incident/accident does... check out the AAIB reports for the ratio of FW to rotary incidents!

Can I share you bunker VFRPB? ;)

PW

I know it has been mentioned but just to double check are you sure it wasn't one of these all white, low wing, fixed undercarriage aircraft?

ASI

In my experience, anyone whose view oposes the majority view will need to work quite hard to get their point across on this forum, regardless of what they fly. Fortunately, most of the regulars are articulate enough to do so.

In this particular case, the majority view is that violence will not solve the problem. I challenge anyone, fixed wing or rotary, to give me a good counter-argument to that.

There is a secondary matter of whether the fixed-wing pilot was even doing anything wrong, and since very few of us were actually there, we're not in a position to comment. Certainly from Vfrpilotpb's description of the events, what occured was both dangerous and illegal. I don't know whether there's another side to the story, but whether there is or not, violence is still not the answer.

I've been on both ends of flying c0ck-ups involving other pilots - although, fortunately, nothing life-threatening. Where it's been possible, a friendly chat in the bar after everything's been tied down has always resolved it (usually by one party apologising). When I don't know who the other pilot is, the friendly chat in the bar isn't possible, and it's best to just put it down to experience - although I would have no hesitation filing an MOR or Airprox if the situation warranted it.

FFF
--------------

It looks like it’s a good idea to inform the CAA so they can mark it on the charts. I'm referring to the half mil' here; it may already be marked on others.


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...art+amendments


Spike

Pilotwolf,...

Hi Mate I accept that. The point I was trying to make was that Vfrpilotpb stated that there were three PPLs in the chopper at the time and looking at C-I-Ms profile he says he flys PA 28s. Surely one of the pilots would recognise a PA28 from that range - one of the most numerous light aircraft in the country... I'm betting you could - think about it.

Also, If vfrpilotpb thought the low flying aircraft may be in difficulties why did he not transmit a PAN call?. A call on 121.5 would be picked up by someone even if transmited from the ground and If the F/W pilot was breaking the law the follow up action to a PAN call would start the ball rolling much quicker than and airprox report...

On a lighter note perhaps we could settle this whole silly business with a F/W vs Heli tug 'o' war or something - we'll whip your weak VTOL arses any day .... :} :D

Kingy

VFRPB,

I am sure that nobody on this forum or anywhere on PPRuNe would not be sympathetic to the feeling of shock and terror which you obviously experienced after the incident.

Although everyone after such an incident would be upset and very angry, if for no other reason than the fear they experienced, all fair and good.

However to be threatening, as you are in your posts, days after the event seems a bit unneccesary. With this you have done very little to endear yourself.

I see from looking at your profile that after flying one of your other hobbies is shooting. Scary stuff.

PW

That would indeed be a good plan and maybe you can give some positive remarks on why the accident rate for helos is so bad on an hour to hour basis compared to FW rates.

I think one of the reasons why helo accidents attract more attention than spam can accidents has more to do with the affluence of people involved driving the 'vehicle' than the mode of transport. May be helo drivers are richer and therefore more known or important!

;)

FD

KINGY

Hmm... not sure I d agree - just ask AB!

FD

I think that depends on what you include in the statistics and how they are presented. Would tend to agree about the type of people who fly them and also more tend to be fatal?

Isn't that what we rotary pilots said in the first place?! ;)

ASI.
None of those!
Spike,
Good idea, I have already sent an E to them siting this incident as my reason for inclusion of the Swan!

To the rest who have taken the trouble to answer
It may be non PC to offer to squeeze some nuts, suppose I should have offered to swing handbags, from 80ft.

I am sorry that I dont know the names of the aircraft you chaps fly, but the A/c was very similar to a 4 seat Piper, my Bro used to fly, my interest is Rotory.

What I cant understand though is the want and vitriol to protect and close ranks around someone who flew low over that area, which incidently is also the turning point for low level runs of fast trainers and Fat Albert to then fly up the length of Windermere.

With pseudo wealth comes arrogance, with real wealth comes humbleness.........

Having loads of money and impressing others with it to flatter our own egos does not neccessarily make you a better pilot.

In fact as the statistic seems to show maybe even the opposite possibly!

Several options here:

1. Mandatory Occurence Report to the CAA
2. Airprox Report to the Airprox Board/Bored?
3. Pistols at dawn, North v South, Northern 'ard men v Southern nancy boys?
4. Fisticuffs? Same teams, but smeared in Swarfega
4. F/W v Rotary tug of war contest?
5. F/W v Rotary drinking contest?
6. Forget the whole thing and go down the pub?
7. Horse's head in the F/W pilot's bed?
8. F/W 'Balbo' flying past the said helipad at Newby Bridge, mooning out of the cockpit windows en masse (at a suitably low-ish height/Altitude/FL* (*Delete where applicable)
9. Group of F/W pilots descend en-masse to the pub at Newby Bridge and have a few shandies, then go for a curry?

Any more suggestions just to lighten this thread up a bit?

I'll get me coat......

:D :D :D

I would go for options 5 & 6 and may be 9, but for the latter we'll have to check out the 'goods' first

;)

FD

Sorry Flying Dutch,

I thought I'd edit point 9 of the post. Could have been taken the wrong way.. But I know what you mean fnarr fnarr.........

Z

Imagine what it would be like if we weren't in the season of goodwill. :ooh:

Z,

You have not turned into a handbag wielding nanny, have you!?!

A curry, don't make me laff!

:D

FD

PS: See where you are coming from, some readers here may be of a more gentle disposition!

FD,

I didn't want to upset the landlord.. He may have ejected us from his establishment.

Did someone mention a curry. . . . . :confused:


VA