After 5 hours...
 

OK, after a mere 5 hours here are my purely self-diagnosed weakpoints:

1. My taxiing is totally s$%t. I cannot seem to get the right instincts in my feet to keep it easily running straight and true.
2. I am holding the yolk in a death grip rather than feeling the ailerons touching the air as I know I should be. I have spent my whole life sailing boats, I think I know just what that should feel like. Can't get there.
3. I am fixating on the VSI rather than the horizon.
4. I still really have no idea what the rudder is for! I sort of randomly poke at it when I happen to see the ball has drifted off too far. Basically I 'steer' the plane with the ailerons.

The last session was kind of depressing - I seem to be getting worse not better. Instructor throws mnemonics at me with no follow-up. eg "lets look at stalling for prep we use HASELL, or was that Hassle or Hassel [?]". I subsequently have no recall of what the @#$%^ that was meant to stand for - height, away from built-up areas, secure, who knows what else. No time to ask him to repeat and forget to review after landing when he asks 'any questions' while fiddling with his phone. (OK, I just googled it. E is for engine, A might be for airframe. What does that mean? engine still running, airframe still there?)

Would it be usual to expect a 5 minute 'debrief' after landing to allow me to go over what we did and perhaps scribble some notes ?

Is this normal kind of progress? After hours 3 and 4 I felt real progress as I gained confidence and became more aware of what was happening. Now wondering if this is going to work.

[In the past I taught sailing on very complex boats to yachtmaster level. I would always start a session with review of where we have got to and end with a review of what we learned today. And on a boat the pace is slower with time to discuss each action as you do it]

But I suspect I am beginning to blame the instructor for my own failings. Maybe I need to take control a bit more?

What do you guys reckon?

Sounds like you need an instructor who takes an interest in you and your flying 👍

Time to move on I suspect. But don't give up on how crap your going is, trust me, blood sweat and tears are all part of it.

Hi Db,
Firstly it's perfectly normal to still be tense and confused in the early stages, and five hours is still the early stages. However from your post it's obvious that you are either not gelling with your instructor or he's not doing his job properly.

Item one just needs some practise with no pressure to go flying. Go out on the field and just do some taxying without any intention to fly. Take your time and take it slowly. You could find someone with a flight simulator using pedals just to assist in orientation but you can't replicate the real thing. Maybe your boating experience of pushing and pulling the tiller against the direction of turn hasn't helped, but if you're used to complex boats that shouldn't be an issue.

Holding the yoke too hard is perfectly normal and simply needs the relaxation that comes from enjoying yourself. It sounds like your not doing that with your current instructor so a change might be necessary.

Your instructor should have tried to wean you off dependency on instruments. Again a common mistake in the early days, but try to keep that head up and out and only refer to the instruments to confirm what you think you've set up visually.

Back to basics in turning for point four. Get your instructor to cover turning and secondary effects of controls again. I used to get students to skid in level flight one way then the other to full control deflection to give them confidence in both ailerons and rudder whilst also learning co-ordination but each instructor will have his own methods.

Finally though, don't despair. What you describe is normal for your stage, but it does sound as if you could use a change of teacher.

Good Luck.

Well after 5 hours you are doing Ok, as for 2 of those hours you will just have been a passenger.
I also had the rudder problem, and being an engineer, I used to think out all the linkages … Push on that pedal, it tightens that cable, which pulls that bell-crank, which pulls that way on the rudder, which makes the air push the tail in the opposite direction.... All too much of a long winded thought process to be of any use.
As for the Yoke, make sure you have trimmed the elevator so that you can take your hands off the yoke, and the airplane continues with no change of altitude. That way you know that zero finger pressure on the yoke = level flight.
Best of luck with the rest..
.

As everybody has said, your situation all sounds pretty normal for a 5 hour student.
Though, you're right, your lessons should include a reasonable pre-briefing, and a thorough de-brief of how you performed, what needs improvement, etc. And, as to mnenomics, they can be useful up to a point, but can be overused, too. I've actually never heard of the one you refer to, sounds somewhat superfluous to me, but either way, it will "gel" in time.
It could be that you and your instructor aren't a good match, for a variety of reasons, you shouldn't hesitate to address these concerns with him/her, any true professional should be glad for the feedback and a chance for clarifications, etc.
Most of all, try to relax, and give things time. Right now, everything you do has to be processed, taking up lots of brain bandwidth. With more practice and exposure to all the new skills you're learning, your reflexes will become better, so to speak, using your spinal cord for basic control (rudder, yoke, throttle, etc.), leaving more room for your brain to process other tasks (navigation, comms, whatever). And, as with any new learned skill set, everyone will have peaks, dips, and plateaus during the process. Good luck, have fun, way too early to get discouraged!

DB,

Expect, well, really, demand an effective briefing before the flight as to some of the expectations, and debriefing following the flight as to observations. For some flights I have done with other pilots, the briefing before hand took longer than the planned flight - 'saved time in the air.

Air is very much more compressible that road or water, so expect the aircraft will be "mushy" in control, compared to a car or boat. Just get used to it, it'll be just fine. That more mushy control is compensated by that reality that aside from precision relative to the surface of the runway, precision compared to driving is otherwise not required.

Similarly, brakes and steering in planes is poor compared to cars (have you looked at the size of the brake pads compared to a car?). They're sloppy things to taxi, so take you time, it'll come to you. It is mechanically not possible for cable type flight control systems to operate with the precision of car steering.

As for instruments, ignore all but: "The Ball" - very frequently when aileron or rudder is being, or should be being used, Altitude, occasional glance if you've been told to maintain it at a stated value, and airspeed, occasional glance during climbout, or approach. Everything else is a nice to know, but should not distract you from flying the plane by outside visual reference.

Use of the rudder: If the wings are not level, and/or you're using the ailerons at all, you should be aware of, and probably applying some rudder. Refer to "The Ball" above. Obviously, the object is to use the rudder to keep the ball in the middle for most flying (passenger comfort). I took a young fellow flying once, and asked what he'd like to see or do. He told me he wanted to understand the use of the rudder. I demonstrated with the application of rudder, and reference to the ball, and let him have at it. He spent about an hour totally focused on flying straight and in turns, with acute attention to the use of the rudder (I watched out for traffic). After that hour of flying, and his dedicated attention, he really did get it. So give yourself that hour of understanding the rudder, with no distraction (from your instructor).

Mnemonics: I have succeeded for more than four decades of flying while completely ignoring the use of mnemonics . Some people find them helpful, I do not. There is no requirement for you to learn nor apply mnemonics to become a good pilot. You've got to do the required actions, but if mnemonics is not your thing, find the method which works for you - which could and should be reference to a written checklist, and do that. As long as you are correctly carrying out the actions, in the required order, how you do it is up to you.

Instructors: They're people, just like us. Some are excellent, and very experienced, others not so much. Couple that with their personal interest in your progress, relative to theirs, and the "fit" could get better or worse for you. It's your money, hire the instruction which suits you. If the instructor is not putting you at ease, and creating a safe and stimulating learning environment for you, discuss that with them, and consider moving on to the next available instructors. It is a reality in aviation now, that the instructors of the day or no longer the highly skilled retired airline or military pilots, but rather new pilots themselves, for whom instructing is a stepping stone to the airline job they really want, so they don't know it all either ('cause they only know what their instructor taught them). The problem is that often they don't know what they don't know - you might be the first to know! Try to find an instructor with grey hair, it got that way, 'cause they have learned more than the basics!

I would not worry too much about issues impairing your progression, don't make it a fixation. I reckon general handling is worrying you the most

If I could give you an advice, go take some tailwheel training, it will develop your skills, finesse and give you a sense of control boosting your confidence. In all aspects of your handling scenarios. The proper reflexes will replace mneumonics, no need to think before doing.

If you could progress to the point of doing your solo flight on a tailwheel aircraft, after say 10 hours you will reach a level of proficiency impossible to equate even with 1000 hours of flying with nosewheel trainers. Tailwheel handling imposes you to master handling skills at the very beginning of your training. It requires an awareness of speed, altitude, energy and flight path, possible only with coordination an a soft smooth touch at the controls.. Failing to master even one of these elements will end up in bent metal, countless bounces, or and a groundloop.


Please note that I am by no means asserting that standard nosewheel training is useless, far from that. But nosegear tricycles do not care how you taxi, take off, or put them into the ground.

Too fast, bounce and land long, too slow and hit the ground hard, sideways screeching the tyres not correcting for parallax or yaw, not flaring properly or not keeping the flare long enough and slamming the front wheel on the concrete, not controlling the decelerating portion swerving left and right...Add a crosswind component and enjoy the show.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am by no means advocating against nosewheel aircraft and instructors far from that.
Show me a nosewheel aircraft e.g. during landing, touching down near the desired spot, not bouncing along, not stalling before such point at 30 cm from the ground, thus indicating proper speed control, without the wheels screeching by hitting the ground sideways during contact, without the front wheel slamming into the ground a fraction of a second after the mains meaning the flare has been kept all along the way allowing for the nosewheel to ease effortlessy into the ground. Then you have a proficient pilot. It does not matter wether taildragger or nosewheel. Rare nonetheless on nosedraggers

Unfortunately looking at the typical flight school circuits and this at vitually every airfield I have been, shows me this is not happening.
Grotesque sloppy habits develop due to improper training possible only in noswheel a/c. And they affect not only students but most instructors as well.
This lack of finesse, coordination, and soft touch is also responsible for grotesque flying habits in the air, but during landing we have it well before our eyes to enjoy the show if we care to look.

The OP says he is unhappy with his taxiing. In that situation going to a tailwheel is likely to make him much more unhappy.

You have a point, but I may say it could eventually make him proactive and develop his reflexes, he says he's grabbing the yoke and does not feel the "ailerons touching the air" which suggests he has a very precise and critical analysis of his drawbacks. I would assume overreacting or failing to react to keep the a/c pointed where he wants it to go both in the ground and in the air are making him tense and depressed.

Why not try taildraggers with a different instructor, one who, at least in the air let's you keep the controls a bit more (As you seem to be wishing)
"Double Barrel", you have noticed some improvement after hour 3 and 4, so take your time.

In flight instruction, as you progress, you will eventually sooner or later reach a point of frustration, that is when after having witnessed the satisfaction of getting it right, you will screw it up at times thereafter. This is normal and has to do with consistency. It takes time.

Carry on and try taildraggers, before it's too late that you will have to remove all those bad habits gained with a nosewheel, which most pilots can live with at the expense of greater finesse in general handling. It is demanding but does wonders.

You are aware of being tense at the controls. Start with handling in the air by developing a soft and light touch , learn how to use the rudder. Then tackle the ground aspect, which is the tough part, but very very rewarding when you will finally master it. It's trial and error, alternating frustration and satisfaction until you reach a decent level of consistency

Without rudder there is no coordination, 99% of pilots and way too many instructors have the ball off on one side or the other without even realising it especially at low speeds and during turns. And at touchdown where screeching of the tyres indicate uncorrected yaw.

I am confident as you loosen up you will overcome much of your problems, and become a better pilot overall. Carry on and good luck !

Thanks all, I will stick at it!

Apart from the useful specific advice on handling, I think the message for me is that I need to demand more from the instructors (actually 2 different guys so far on 5 flights!). Interestingly, although they constantly whizz through checklists, there has been no mention of a physical list on paper, is that usual? My brain seems to absorb things better if I have some writing to refer to as well as the physical action. Anyway, I spent yesterday trawling the web and compiling my own for the key phases, I have also acquired a knee board (another item that has not been referred to by the instructors) and will turn-up with my own lists strapped to my knee and try to take a bit more ownership of the process. Including a debrief after shutting down. After all, I am giving them all of my money!

Well, before you go to that effort... Hopefully, by this point, you've been introduced to the flight manual for the aircraft. Every certified plane manufacturer in the last 60 years will have one. It will contain a checklist, which really is the one an only which you should use. The only things which might be added to that would be additional items found in flight manual supplements applicable to the aircraft (ask/have a look, though don't expect much), and items unique to the operation of aircraft at that locale (specific ATC procedures, for example). Otherwise, operate the aircraft with the checklist produced by the manufacturer. Because... If you develop your own, and as a result something is different and missed, somebody will probably ask you why you did not use the manufacturer's checklist, and there's no good answer for that question! If you cannot easily copy the one from the flight manual, write it out for yourself, and make reference on what you've written, that it is a reproduction of the flight manual checklist. It sounds like work, but in doing that, you'll begin to absorb the details and retain them.

As an instructor is being paid to teach you to fly the aircraft, they should be teaching you to refer to a written checklist. If they are not, and are whizzing through a verbal checklist in their head, they are doing you a disservice in your learning. It's not their job to show off how cool they are 'cause they memorized a checklist, it's their job to demonstrate doing things properly. Later in your career, you may choose to memorize checklists, but not now, read the paper every time. And, if you do that, you can completely avoid mnemonics!

Nope. No mention of the existence of a flight manual.

Oh dear... That's worrisome! You'd read the instruction manual before you operated any other complex machine... Reading, or at least being aware of the existence of the flight manual, would be a good idea, and should be being trained. It'll tell you some important things, the most important of which is the limitations imposed on the operation of the aircraft - so you know not to exceed them! Otherwise, procedures for emergency and normal operation, as well as weight and balance, and performance information will be there. And, a detailed description of the systems of the aircraft, to help you make a good decision when something isn't working properly. Yes, your instructor should be "covering this" for you in the beginning of your learning, but you still should be aware!

Just 'cause I'm curious, what aircraft model and year have you been flying DB?

Yes. Been through all that. I was OK to do each of them as separate exercises, but still far from comfortable with the whole thing. Is that unusually superficial? Last thing he said was that now I just need to keep practicing. Maybe that's an OK way to approach it ?

I am a bit surprised at no mention ever of any value of airspeed for anything. I have read a bit of theory so know what to expect for the obvious things, but I did expect everything to be dominated by awareness of IAS. It certainly is not at the moment. Maybe I am just worrying too much and they are treating the 1st 5 hours as a general relaxed intro to be followed-up by more formal stuff ?

C172M. Don't know the year

1)you'll get it in time.
2)you'll get it in time
3)you'll get it in time
4)I still don't know what the rudder is for
And yes, you should expect a decent 10 minute-ish debrief for your buck. But some instructors like to debrief in the aircraft. Don't forget, their time can be very limited. If you want a decent ground debrief, demand one.

For the 172M, after about a three second Google search, I found this:

http://www.hva.com.au/Uploads/Cessna...odel%20POH.pdf

Download it and read through. Sure, some of it may not be clear to you now, but by the time you earn your PPL, everything in this manual should make sense to you. Your instructor should be able to easily explain everything which is presented in this manual. Legally, this manual must be carried aboard the aircraft during flight. It costs nothing to sit in an aircraft which is not running, so pick a poor weather day, sit in the plane (and walk around it) with the manual in your hands, and equate everything - the manual explains it all.

Probably in your national regulations, there is one somewhere (which in all fairness, you would not yet have been introduced to) which will read something like "The pilot shall operate the aircraft in accordance with the manufacturer's manuals and checklists, and within its limitations". The flight manual/pilot operating handbook from the aircraft manufacturer is the document you refer to to comply with that regulation. If you do not refer to the flight manual, and it's checklists, and something goes wrong, an authoritative person may be asking you why you were not complying with the manufacturer's procedures and limitations. I would not like to have to answer that question myself!

Also note, that probably of little affect on the 172M you fly, there still may be approved flight manual supplements associated with modifications done to that particular plane. You would also be responsible for knowing and operating within those. Just reading only the flight manual is not enough. An example is that some modifications impose speed limitations which you would like to know about! During an approval process, I once limited a 172M with a photo door installed to a never exceed speed of 125 knots. This was because I found during testing that at 135 knots, the door shook so badly I thought I would loose it! So, there's an approved flight manual supplement for that photo door, and requirement to placard the airspeed indicator when it's installed, which I wrote. Woe be the pilot who disregards, and flies it faster than 135 knots!

Beyond the manual, I highly recommend the book "Cessna, Wings for the World" by Thompson. He was a Cessna test pilot, and explains everything about the whole single engine series. It is certain that if you read the section of that book about 172's, you will know more than your instructor about the development history of the plane, and why things are the way they are - it's fascinating.

Cool. Thanks

sounds very normal to me
 

I tihink that you are showing a good talent for understanding your own learning curve, that will serve you well.

some comments below to assist:


1. My taxiing is totally s$%t. I cannot seem to get the right instincts in my feet to keep it easily running straight and true.

It will come. Normal at this stage. Keep at it. I had a problem as all my foot steering was learnt on soapbox carts with a beam front axle which works teh other way. Just remember right foot to turn right. Soon you will have that down but struggle with positioing the ailerons during taxi to match the wind !

2. I am holding the yolk in a death grip rather than feeling the ailerons touching the air as I know I should be. I have spent my whole life sailing boats, I think I know just what that should feel like. Can't get there.

Also normal at this stage. High workload is the main cause. Everyone says 'just hold the yoke with finger and thumb' but easier said than done. This will come. Concentrate on learning and understanding the concept of angle of attack and how much energy the aircraft has.. many parallels to sailing, you just need to find them

3. I am fixating on the VSI rather than the horizon.
Try asking your intructor to cover up the panel or, better , use pvc tape or a grease pencil to make a reference mark on the windscreen to reference the horizon so you can just use that. Forbid yourself to look inside. No need. Trust that if you have the power set correctly and the pitch set, you will fly correctly ! pitch and heading can be determined by looking out of the window.. Pick a visual reference point to fly towards for each heading you need to fly.

4. I still really have no idea what the rudder is for! I sort of randomly poke at it when I happen to see the ball has drifted off too far. Basically I 'steer' the plane with the ailerons.

Yes, also normal. Also related to the taxiing point. Tell your instructor that you need to review this and next time you roll (steer) in to a turn watch the prop spinner against the horizon, You will be suprised to see that it initially moves the wrong way in a turn. You will eventually learn the muscle memory to use the rudder to correct this but it can take a long time. Also ask the instructor to show you how to do dutch rolls, which will help build the understanding and footwork.

The last session was kind of depressing - I seem to be getting worse not better. Instructor throws mnemonics at me with no follow-up. eg "lets look at stalling for prep we use HASELL, or was that Hassle or Hassel [?]". I subsequently have no recall of what the @#$%^ that was meant to stand for - height, away from built-up areas, secure, who knows what else. No time to ask him to repeat and forget to review after landing when he asks 'any questions' while fiddling with his phone. (OK, I just googled it. E is for engine, A might be for airframe. What does that mean? engine still running, airframe still there?)

This is a workload issue and also you probably arent getting a decent preflight brief and even if you are you are probably struggling to remember and apply it. Google or PPRUNE can assist on that - here is what I use

H is for height. - sufficient height to recover safely from whatever you are about to do
A is for airframe - aircraft configured correctly for what you are going to do. Power/Flap setting etc
S is for secure - no loose stuff in the aircraft, seatbelts tight etc
E is for engine - stiil there, yes, also a quick look to make sure all gauges in the green.
L is for location - use ABC, A- Airfields - dont manouever near airfields; B - built up areas - dont manouver near them, C - controlled airspace - be aware that you may inadvertently enter it if a manouver goes badly
L - is for Lookout - most important. Look above , below and turn R & L to be sure noone is nearby


Remember, if it was easy, everyone would be pilots and we would proably have to get jobs as bus drivers.

Hope this helps

You've done five hours and probably not that much taxiing, it'll come.

RELAX!

Don't fixate on anything, ANYTHING. Look out of the window, enjoy the view, just glance in occasionally when there's something you need to look at. You should spend a lot of time looking at the real, out of the window, horizon - but even then not fixating. If you have been told to watch the ARTIFICIAL HORIZON, that is very very poor advice for every lesson of PPL training bar one, and you should not have been told that.

You do steer with the ailerons. You're still at basic effects of controls, but this should have been, or will be, covered in briefings and the notes you've been given to read.

(1) Stalling at five hours????. Either you're winding us up, or your instructor is following a somewhat unorthodox order of lessons.
(2) Any checks should have been covered in briefings and/or training notes you've been told to run.
(3) HASELL checks are in your checklist, the aeroplane manual, the training notes, and for that matter your pre-flight briefings.

Basically either you're winding us up, or you need to change instructor and/or school.


EIther you are winding us up, or your instructor is utterly incompetent.

No it would be usual to have a formal debrief usually rather longer than five minutes, including you taking notes and him filling out your training record in your sight.

The level of progress is probably fine, but what you are describing is utter incompetence in instructing - and you will quickly bed in bad habits that do you no favours. If your recall and description are true and honest, you need a new instructor - probably a new school before these bad habits bed in. Why a new school? - because schools are supposed to standardise teaching practice across all of their instructors.

And that is what flying instructors are trained to do too. So, if your descriptions are accurate, you are at a very poor school.

On the contrary, (a) you are not describing particular failings on the part of a student, and (b) the instructor is supposed to be the expert and controller of the teaching and learning process.

I would suggest before walking away having a closed door lengthy discussion with the school Chief Instructor - that *may* resolve things, it may not.

G

Thanks again everyone. Piperboy, thanks, I have not seen that, I will go through it.

Genghis and Custard thanks both, very helpful. I absolutely assure you that I am not winding you up. In fact, there are other specifics I have not mentioned that I know are bad behavior in an instructor, I have not because I don't want this thread to be identifiable to a particular instructor/school/location. The nearest to a debrief is 'any questions and put the pitot cover on as you go'. Last flight I didn't get the Hobbs reading as the instructor was too busy chatting to his mates outside the aircraft, so I wandered back, filled-in the paperwork leaving Hobbs readings blank and wandered off home. As I mentioned, I had one instructor for the 1st 2 hours, he has been away for the last 3 lessons, current bloke is younger (1,400 hours total according to the board, I assume that is instructing hours). I did get on better with the 1st bloke; there seemed to be more 'precision' in the way he communicated.

I have asked for a meeting with the chief instructor.

(Genghis, I just tried to PM you. Your quota is full)

(maybe I should add that each nominal hour is actually only 40 minutes in the air, although invariably over 1 hour on the Hobbs - I have started logging the flights with Garmin Pilot. That feels brief to me. Is that usual? The session is well over an hour but lots of fannying about waiting for clearances; it's a busy airport. When counting hours, is that normally true flying time or engine running time ?)

Hours logged are brakes off to brakes on - sllghtly less than Hobbs. 40 minutes airborne for an hour Hobbs is not unreasonable.

My PM box is always full!, but you can email me via Pprune and I will pick that up.

G

Similar experience to myself many years ago. Looking back in the log book it shows for the fifth lesson (a previous lesson was two hours) 10A/10B. Like the OP I was feeling overloaded and although performing recovery, with and without power, quite well I realised then it may be a bit too early in my training. After talking with the Chief Instructor I took a break, changed schools and progressed at a more comfortable (for me) pace.

I flew model airplanes, and came into "real" aviation by becoming an A@P.
One day, I re-rigged a C-150 that did not wanna fly straight, and the instructor said: "You rigged it. Time for your first flight", and off we went.
Medical and all paperwork done, I started flying lessons. Coming from model airplanes had its advantages, but also getting used to "the real deal." was an eye opener.

After 3 hrs, I thought; "Hey this is not so bad at all."
After 5 hrs, I thought; " Damm, what am I missing".
After 8 hrs, I thought: "This is never gonna work.", The instructor opened his door, and stepped out. "Do 3 circuits and park the thing at the fuel pump." => I said ; Oh ****! ! ! !
That was winter 1979

I will try for hour 6 today! I have just skimmed through the thread above on control-column-flailing - that helps me to visualise my problem with the death grip on the controls. I will work on imagining I am hold an unpleasant part of someone else's anatomy.

double_barrel,

Good luck with your lesson. Forget about the anatomy metaphor (;)) and try what I do. I fly a C182, but the technique works in any aircraft. Hold the yoke lightly with two fingertips and the thumb of your left hand. If possible, rest your elbow on the armrest.

If you feel even the slightest pressure on the yoke, then make slight adjustments to the elevator trim, until you can fly hands off, at the desired pitch attitude.

When maneuvering, I tend to use all my fingers on the yoke, but it is still a light grip, with just fingertips.

A final thought on taxiing. Ask your instructor to manage the yoke and throttle, while you concentrate on steering with your feet. I find when I've been flying an aircraft with a stick and I hop back into an aircraft with a yoke, I have this unconscious tendency to use the yoke as a steering wheel!

Also when starting the takeoff run, consciously think "Heels on the floor", so that your feet do not accidentally apply the toe-brakes during the takeoff.

I just looked back at my training and found this blog post, I think you are right on track!

Major achievement – the tower no longer thinks I’m drunk

After 7 lessons I’ve finally managed the art of being sober! Or at least looking like I am. Yes, Ladies and Gentlemen after 7 lessons, I’ve finally got the hang of taxiing the damn plane in a straight line!

With regard to sailing (and speaking from direct experience), and in response to your first two points: You're used to operating a "machine" that has quite a few things in common with an aircraft (wings, operating in a fluid medium), and you're used to being able to control it very precisely. When the water gets lumpy, and the wind is shifty/gusty, you anticipate how that machine is going to respond, and continue to control it precisely. Now you sit yourself in an aircraft, and beat yourself up because you're not achieving the level of control you're used to. Is it possible that you're unconsciously setting yourself unreasonably high standards?
Rather than thinking of someone learning to sail a large wheel-steered yacht (everyone knows how to operate a steering wheel), think of someone learning to helm a relatively tippy dinghy with a tiller extension. It takes a while even for them to learn which way to move the tiller. Now add in the fact that they have a sheet in the other hand, and moving either sheet or tiller seems to want to make the boat capsize one way or the other. Half the time the boat feels like it wants to capsize even if they don't move either. The only way to feel "in control" is to figure out how to coordinate the tiller and sheet, *and* respond to the constantly changing wind. That's before we've thrown in manoeuvres, collision avoidance etc, and it feels like you have to learn it all at once. Now think how "in control" your student's going to feel after 5 hours in the boat; if they're much over 20 years old, the answer's most likely going to be "not very". IMHO, that's closer to what learning to fly is like. Stick with it, you'll "get" it, and ultimately you'll have just as good a feel for an aircraft as you already do for a boat...

The hardest 2 things to learn when you start are trimming and taxiing!, you at 5 hours sounds like most people, even i was like that too, now an instructor and examiner, it all comes good by 45 hours.
we charge from brakes off to brakes on, normally one hour at a time,

Thanks MoP, that cheers me up!

Pasta. I have been thinking through the sailing/flying thing, and I am sure you are right. I am unconsciously expecting to feel and handle a Cessna like a boat. But as you say, there are some huge differences - on a boat the surface in the air is 100s of times bigger than an aircraft's control surface and the rudder is in a much denser medium. You manage a boat by balancing the forces; and when maneuvering by anticipating and 'meeting' the forces. Looking at the thread on control column flailing, it dawned on me that it is physically impossible to move the 'control surfaces' on a boat like that. So even though the aircraft is not responding to all the thrashing around, the surfaces are presumably moving around in response to al those inputs, and meeting little resistance. So clearly, as someone said earlier, the aircraft controls will feel way 'mushier' than a boat's and I just need to focus on what its doing now and what inputs do I need to make to make it do what I want. It sounds trivial, but that is totally different from a sailing boat, especially a big, heavy, powerful boat like I am used to sailing.

One interesting point, when banking or turning I instinctively want to stop the maneuver with a counter-turn or counter-bank, as you must on a boat. My instructors tell me that is wrong, I should just go back to the neutral position and the change of attitude instantly stops. My muscles are beginning to believe that!

On the upside, my sailing background means I can instinctively turn onto a course, use a compass and chart and cope with all that nav stuff. I am somewhat bemused by flying's strange radio procedures, and keep slipping back to the 'wrong' order of callsigns, but at least I am comfortable with using a VHF.

Hour 6 was a huge improvement. I turned-up early dug out the physical checklists and conducted my own pre and post flight brief! In the air I focussed on not over-controlling and keeping a delicate touch. Hour 7 tomorrow!

In case anyone is interested in an update on my roller coaster ride!

I had a serious discussion with the head of the school. My feedback appears to have been welcomed, and I have switched back to the instructor that I had for the 1st 2 hours. What a difference! There is some really fundamental stuff that he made clear to me in hour 2 that was completely ignored by the other bloke, and it got lost from my brain over the subsequent >5 hours of vague fannying around. Now I can see just how useless the instruction was - there was absolutely no precision in his teaching or clear communication.

So the advice here to switch instructors was bang on, and all my self doubt and agonizing over the instincts I brought from boating was (mostly) nonsense. I just needed someone to explain to me how to fly the freaking aeroplane! Now of course I am mad at the wasted time, dosh and self-confidence. I tracked all the flights on my ipad, and looking back over the tracks it is obvious that the intensity of the work is 100x greater now, I am finding sessions demanding and enjoyable.

I am! One thing I love to do is re-live vicariously through others the wondrous journey of learning to fly. More please!

double_barrel,

I'm sure that there are many here interested in your progress.

This may be an indelicate question, but what happened to the other instructor?

Well, they did not go into details with me - quite properly.

But from what they did say, he is being actively encouraged to up his game. I suspect that he is being given the opportunity to do that in another establishment. I felt guilty for a while, but not after the 1st session back with a decent instructor.

Gripping the Control Column...
When I did my QXC, one of the legs was from Blackpool to the North Wales Coast, and in the Piper Tomahawk I decided to trim the thing so that it would fly hands-off, which it did for most of that route.
I now fly a C172 with rudder trim, which if set to give a central Ball, needs about 2 ounces of pressure on the right aileron to stop the aircraft doing a 60 mile radius turn.
So in all cases a strong grip is not required, and if you ever get to fly with an auto-pilot, you will wonder why the Control Column is needed at all..!
.