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-   -   Effect of Brexit on UK certificates etc. (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/607779-effect-brexit-uk-certificates-etc.html)

ETOPS 14th Apr 2018 07:43

Effect of Brexit on UK certificates etc.
 
Recently the head of the CAA stated that they had done no work in preparing for the UK being ejected from EASA and the effect that would have on licences et. He said it was not a credible scenario.

This must have come as a surprise..

https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations


Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU. This concerns in particular:
 Certificates of airworthiness, restricted certificates of airworthiness, permits to fly, approvals of organisations responsible for the maintenance of products, parts and appliances, approvals for organisations responsible for the manufacture of products, parts and appliances, approvals for maintenance training organisations, and certificates for personnel responsible for the release of a product, part or appliance after maintenance, issued pursuant to Article 5 of the Basic Regulation;
 Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation;
 Certificates for air operators and attestations for the cabin crew, issued pursuant to Article 8 of the Basic Regulation;
 Certificates for aerodromes, certificates for ATM/ANS providers, licences and medical certificates for air traffic controllers, certificates for air traffic controller training organisations, certificates for aero medical centres and aero medical examiners responsible for air traffic controllers, certificates for persons
etc

Gertrude the Wombat 14th Apr 2018 08:50


Originally Posted by ETOPS (Post 10117946)
This must have come as a surprise..

Only to people who voted "leave" with their eyes shut, their fingers in their ears, whilst singing "la la la" at the tops of their voices. And even they are simply getting what they voted for.

It's not very often, let's be fair, that anyone does actually get what they vote for, but it does happen sometimes, so the clever trick, when voting, is to be prepared that the outcome might just be that you are actually successful.

Capt Kremmen 14th Apr 2018 09:05

It becomes difficult only if you wish to make it so. It's primarily a paper exercise, simply change the name at the top of the relevant document. EASA becomes CAA which so far as GA is concerned it should always have been.

rudestuff 14th Apr 2018 17:08

It’s up to the CAA whether a licence is valid or not. They issue the licenses. EASA can choose not to recognize it as an EASA licence, but last I checked the UK is still a member of the ICAO. Not that it matters, you don’t have to be in the EU to be in EASA.

SWBKCB 15th Apr 2018 06:07


Not that it matters, you don’t have to be in the EU to be in EASA.
No, but on leaving the EU we would need to re-negotiate our membership. Just another thing on the "to do" list.

highcirrus 15th Apr 2018 07:34


Not that it matters, you don’t have to be in the EU to be in EASA.
Currently the EU28 States are full voting EASA members. Also EFTA/EEA States, Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein plus independent State, Switzerland are non-voting EASA members.

Unless UK remains in the EEA by rejoining EFTA after 29 March 2019 and transferring its EU EEA membership to EFTA EEA membership and then becoming a non-voting EASA member, UK will become a "Third Country" and, hence, not an EASA member.

The EASA map shows current member States (use EASA member State filter).

22/04 15th Apr 2018 08:14

I don't think most who voted for BREXIT voted for being in EASA without voting rights. They were prepared to take short term chaos for long-term a return of decision making to the UK. An independent CAA.

Those who voted for remain voted for the status quo.

Are we heading for something almost no one wanted?

highcirrus 15th Apr 2018 10:15

22/04

I don't think most who voted for BREXIT voted for being in EASA without voting rights
I'm not sure that I remember any reference to EASA on the referendum ballot paper in 2016.

I'd be very interested if you could refer me to survey evidence which confirms a significant volume of the people you allude to who:

were prepared to take short term chaos for long-term a return of decision making to the UK. An independent CAA.
In terms of chaos (short term or otherwise), the EU Notice to Stakeholders Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU Aviation Safety Rules would seem to indicate that if we do not retain EASA membership in some form or other, then chaos will indeed prevail.

Further, in terms of an independent CAA, in September last year, CAA chief executive Andrew Haines was "uncompromising" in rejecting the idea of planning for a new independent aviation safety system (and thereby seeking mutual recognition with the EU). The CAA had, he said, "consciously decided not to do that work as it would be misleading to suggest that's a viable option". Details here.


Are we heading for something almost no one wanted?
Probably we are. If we leave the EU we lose voting membership of EASA. If we leave EFTA/EEA we lose non-voting EASA membership. If we become a "Third Country" we can probably cobble together something like the EASA/Turkish arrangement whereby Turkey is a high fee, non-voting supplicant who's DGCA is permanently in thrall to EASA. Given that it will take years to resurrect a half way efficient UK CAA to act as an independent aviation safety system in the event of leaving EASA, we'll be in Armaggedon territory fairly quickly thereafter, descending from membership of world aerospace leadership with hugely significant collective national experience, skill, innovation, manufacturing capability and technical excellence to a dark world of UK job losses, skill migration, airline closure and manufacturing collapse.

Do we all want this?

22/04 15th Apr 2018 10:30


Probably we are. If we leave the EU we lose voting membership of EASA. If we leave EFTA/EEA we lose non-voting EASA membership. If we become a "Third Country" we can probably cobble together something like the EASA/Turkish arrangement whereby Turkey is a high fee, non-voting supplicant who's DGCA is permanently in thrall to EASA. Given that it will take years to resurrect a half way efficient UK CAA to act as an independent aviation safety system in the event of leaving EASA, we'll be in Armaggedon territory fairly quickly thereafter, descending from membership of world aerospace leadership with hugely significant collective national experience, skill, innovation, manufacturing capability and technical excellence to a dark world of UK job losses, skill migration, airline closure and manufacturing collapse.
This looks like the frightening talk which did not persuade remain result in the Referendum. I cannot see Mr Rees Mogg sitting back while we become a "vassal state" though.

22/04 15th Apr 2018 10:33

Oh and

I'm not sure that I remember any reference to EASA on the referendum ballot paper in 2016.
Not specifically, but in general we were told it would mean "taking back control"

highcirrus 15th Apr 2018 11:01

22/04


This looks like the frightening talk which did not persuade remain result in the Referendum. I cannot see Mr Rees Mogg sitting back while we become a "vassal state" though.
May I trouble you for a reference to Mr Rees-Mogg's plan, following departure from EASA, to keep Airbus Broughton wing manufacture rolling, Rolls Royce Derby churning out Trents etc and a myriad supporting, sub-contracting manufacturers in business?

Similarly, I've probably missed his commentary on the EU Notice to Stakeholders. Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU Aviation Safety Rules, previously referred to and in particular his plan to counter the devastating effects of:

Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU.
and thus keep flight crews, engineers, air traffic personnel, cabin crew, training departments etc, etc in business, earning to support families and providing significant contribution to the UK tax base. You see, whenever I look, I can't find any details of putative plans for a Rees-Mogg handling of this upcoming catastrophe.

22/04 15th Apr 2018 11:13

The EU have to take that stance as that is what will happen if there is not a satisfactory outcome of the negotiations.

I think we rather hope that there will be a probably sector specific trade deal that will permit membership and voting rights for a fee, with an extended transition period to enable it.

Incidentally I didn't support the position we are now in 2015, but we are supposed to be healing our wounds and coming together to make it work.

POBJOY 15th Apr 2018 11:50

Brexit not at fault
 
The largest problem facing GA in the UK has nothing to do with leaving the EU.
We need to look closer to home and see what is happening to the actual 'facilities' that are either being reduced or becoming too expensive, or to complicated to use.
Most of the 'Airfield Issues' that are now upon us are regulations imposed from the airfield owners and nothing to do with the EU.
When places like Biggin Hill are actively making it difficult to operate a club, and also require 'schedule like' permission just to go flying then that is where the worry is.
There is also going to be a decided lack of licenced engineering availability as there are precious few new comers (that will take licences) in the system to replace the current people that actually 'sign off' the GA fleet.
Luckily we still have the LAA in place to assist the enthusiast, however they do not operate airfields so can not help on that front.
We have 'lost' a number of what used to be 'usable' GA facilities and very few if any new ones will be forthcoming. Much of this is due to 'developers' getting control and then 'squeezing' the users, and of course GA is not a 'Vote Getter' for any political party.

highcirrus 15th Apr 2018 12:16

POBJOY


The largest problem facing GA in the UK has nothing to do with leaving the EU.
All the problems detailed above will impact UK GA as much as they will the Aerospace/Air Transport sectors following UK becoming a "Third Country" after 29 March 2019. Think EASA Part-FCL licensing, engineering licensing, airworthiness, air traffic control licensing etc, etc.

I do, however, agree with the main body of your post.

highcirrus 15th Apr 2018 12:53

22/04


I think we rather hope that there will be a probably sector specific trade deal that will permit membership and voting rights for a fee
A recent report by the CBI employers' group called Smooth Operations, "suggests the UK could still exert influence over important regulatory decisions through continued membership of the many EU agencies - such as the ones governing aerospace and chemicals - in which other non-EU nations like Turkey currently participate."

The CBI is wrong in its statement in that it maintains that Turkey is a member of the EU Agency, EASA. A look at the EASA website will confirm that this is in error and that Turkey is not an EASA member. The CBI is further in error by suggesting that Turkey could, through a sector specific trade deal "exert influence over important regulatory decisions" and that UK could exert similar, following Brexit.

The reality is contained here detailing a limited relationships known as Working Arrangements. One covers the collection and exchange of information on the safety of aircraft and another deals with the relationships between EASA and the Turkish Directorate General of Civil Aviation.

To quote Dr. Richard North at his website:This latter arrangement is as formal as it gets between the two organisations, which amounts to EASA notifying the Turks of changes to relevant standards and assisting them in understanding the applicable rules, "so as to facilitate their transposition and implementation.

In return for this largesse, the Turks "accept" that EASA will carry out standardisation visits and will rate the facilities inspected as "fully compliant" or in various degrees, "not compliant", whence the Directorate of Civil Aviation undertakes to act on the reports "in order to redress the identified findings". And, for such "services", the Civil Aviation Authority will be invoiced by EASA.

It is this arrangement or something very similar that UK can expect if it becomes a "Third Country".

Again, something we all want?

highcirrus 15th Apr 2018 13:04

Capt Kremmen

Broughton wing manufacture to France, Germany or Spain.

Derby Trents - bonanza time for GE and Pratt.

Good luck on the "paper exercise for a largely seamless transition". I wish I could share your optimism.

What could derail the situation, I fear, is complete UK government lack of understanding of the EU and its workings.

VictorGolf 15th Apr 2018 16:07

How about buying a large tub of Tippex (other brands are available) and altering FAA documents to CAA? That should do it.

Katamarino 15th Apr 2018 16:38


Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen (Post 10118023)
It's primarily a paper exercise, simply change the name at the top of the relevant document. EASA becomes CAA which so far as GA is concerned it should always have been.

I'm guessing it will be a paperwork exercise where we have to send in our certificate, not being able to fly while it's away, as well as making a three figure payment to the good old boys at the CAA. Can't see them missing an opportunity to extort more cash from us.

Katamarino 15th Apr 2018 16:40


Originally Posted by VictorGolf (Post 10119294)
How about buying a large tub of Tippex (other brands are available) and altering FAA documents to CAA? That should do it.

That would require common sense and a desire to be helpful to aviation, not something I've ever seen from our regulator...

Gertrude the Wombat 15th Apr 2018 18:58


Originally Posted by 22/04 (Post 10118909)
I don't think most who voted for BREXIT voted for being in EASA without voting rights. They were prepared to take short term chaos for long-term a return of decision making to the UK. An independent CAA.

Disputes about the application of EASA rules are (or would be, if there ever were any) decided by which court? And refusing to be bound by which court is one of our red lines? QED.

Gertrude the Wombat 15th Apr 2018 18:59


Originally Posted by Katamarino (Post 10119313)
That would require common sense and a desire to be helpful ..., not something I've ever seen from ...

... a #brexiter.

22/04 15th Apr 2018 19:31


Disputes about the application of EASA rules are (or would be, if there ever were any) decided by which court? And refusing to be bound by which court is one of our red lines? QED.
I thought there was a move towards allow the ECJ to have some role post BREXIT now. Taking account of its views or something.

Steve6443 15th Apr 2018 21:53

Gertrude: Life existed before EASA. I recall my licence had JAR-FCL written on it. I didn't see any change when it was switched to EASA when it was renewed at the 5 year point. So what changes can I expect if it was returned to a JAR FCL licence, after all, these are internationally recognised standards.....

Gertrude the Wombat 15th Apr 2018 22:19


Originally Posted by Steve6443 (Post 10119579)
Gertrude: Life existed before EASA.

Sure, and we can return to those days easily enough, given enough money and time, and it's the latter that's the problem (money isn't a problem, because the costs can be recovered from the pilots). How is the CAA getting on with the necessary recruiting and training? About as well as the customs people are with the planning permission for the Kent lorry parks?

The only #brexit practicality that the government appears to be anywhere near ready for (subject to only the piss-take court case, which the government should win) is the BLUE PASSPORTS. But as that's obviously the most importing thing it has to sort out, it was quite right to do that first.

BackPacker 16th Apr 2018 13:00


Originally Posted by Steve6443 (Post 10119579)
Gertrude: Life existed before EASA. I recall my licence had JAR-FCL written on it. I didn't see any change when it was switched to EASA when it was renewed at the 5 year point. So what changes can I expect if it was returned to a JAR FCL licence, after all, these are internationally recognised standards.....

Except for the tiny detail that the JAA no longer exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_...on_Authorities

If the UK wants to "go back" to something, it would need to be the pre-JAR-FCL days. That's the 1980s.

TheOddOne 16th Apr 2018 15:49

There's an old saying:

For things to stay the same, EVERYTHING must change!

TOO

Bob Upanddown 18th Apr 2018 16:32

My "member or the EU" red passport is due to be renewed in 2020. So am I going to be banned from travel after March because my passport isn't Blue with "Free United Kingdom" on the front?? I don't think so.

I look at this document as telling UK to get ready for the change. If Andrew Haines is TOO STUPID to make any plan other than say the CAA will remain part of EASA, then he better move the Belgrano and it's staff to Belgium and try to regulate us from there because the UK will be out.

(I didn't vote for it!!)

Gertrude the Wombat 18th Apr 2018 18:40


Originally Posted by Bob Upanddown (Post 10122874)
My "member or the EU" red passport is due to be renewed in 2020. So am I going to be banned from travel after March because my passport isn't Blue with "Free United Kingdom" on the front?? I don't think so.

What will change is that you will no longer have the RIGHT to travel to 27 countries. You can probably still go there, depending on what you want to do, but it will be with the PERMISSION and at the WHIM of a bunch of foreigners, instead of as of RIGHT. This, apparently, is what's called "taking back control".

Capt Kremmen 18th Apr 2018 19:27

Excellent ! So it is back to how it was before the EU first drew breath ! And visiting the rest of the world, how will that work ?


I think that I can guess that it will be the same as it was before.

Bob Upanddown 19th Apr 2018 08:32


Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat (Post 10123003)
What will change is that you will no longer have the RIGHT to travel to 27 countries. You can probably still go there, depending on what you want to do, but it will be with the PERMISSION and at the WHIM of a bunch of foreigners, instead of as of RIGHT. This, apparently, is what's called "taking back control".

Exactly. It might be a complete PITA to go to L2K for Lunch, who knows (not me, as all my flying has been whilst the UK has been in the EU)? Maybe we will need a Visa to go to France in a GA aircraft (like the US).
It is unlikely that, if I can get to France in a light aircraft in April 2019, I will be arrested for flying on a UK issued EASA licence issued when the UK was part of the EU and EASA.

Clearly aviation will change as we won't be in the EU. If nothing is agreed, it will be a large change and the EU are pointing that out but if CAA don't respond to this EU statement soon then the whole organisation will be seriously unfit for purpose come next April. They can't have their heads in the sand expecting nothing will change because we will still be in EASA because we might not.

Gertrude the Wombat 19th Apr 2018 11:06


Originally Posted by Bob Upanddown (Post 10123601)
Clearly aviation will change as we won't be in the EU. If nothing is agreed, it will be a large change and the EU are pointing that out but if CAA don't respond to this EU statement soon then the whole organisation will be seriously unfit for purpose come next April. They can't have their heads in the sand expecting nothing will change because we will still be in EASA because we might not.

If there are going to be big changes the CAA must already be most of the way through the recruiting and training and planning and IT systems projects, or they''ll be too late. More likely is that they haven't been allocated a budget for any of that, and they're telling their bosses daily "if you don't tell us what you want us to do, and don't give us the money to do it, then we won't be able to do it, and it's already too late". Replicated, no doubt, across most of the public sector.

TelsBoy 19th Apr 2018 11:35

Ignoring the overtly political garbage on both sides of the argument which is derailing the thread off-track, nobody really knows what's going on, and that includes the regulator.


I am not losing any sleep over it. We will still ahve licenses and approved aircraft to fly. I couldn't care less about the process used as that'll be for the politicians and mandarins to sort out.

A and C 19th Apr 2018 12:55

The problem is the UK wanting out of the Euopean court of justice in all areas, unfortunately all member EASA member states have the ECJ as the ultimate authority over the EASA activities.

It is difficult to see how the UK can be in EASA and not under the ECJ for aviation matters.

The question is does the UK stay under the ECJ for aviation or get out from under the EU completely ? If so would it not be better to throw in our lot with the FAA and join the worlds biggest aviation system ?

TheOddOne 19th Apr 2018 19:24


If so would it not be better to throw in our lot with the FAA and join the worlds biggest aviation system ?
Why on earth would they have us? Can't see it, myself. The 'special relationship', if it ever existed, is long dead and buried.

TOO

aox 20th Apr 2018 07:21


Originally Posted by highcirrus (Post 10119038)
22/04



May I trouble you for a reference to Mr Rees-Mogg's plan, following departure from EASA, to keep Airbus Broughton wing manufacture rolling, Rolls Royce Derby churning out Trents etc and a myriad supporting, sub-contracting manufacturers in business?

Similarly, I've probably missed his commentary on the EU Notice to Stakeholders. Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU Aviation Safety Rules, previously referred to and in particular his plan to counter the devastating effects of: and thus keep flight crews, engineers, air traffic personnel, cabin crew, training departments etc, etc in business, earning to support families and providing significant contribution to the UK tax base. You see, whenever I look, I can't find any details of putative plans for a Rees-Mogg handling of this upcoming catastrophe.

You're talking about a man who looks forward to deregulation of employment and environmental matters, making it easier to sack people, entertaining ambitions for us to make do with similar environmental standards as India (he seems to not to have made any comments about the recent tide of plastic taking over TV coverage).

Would he dare to stand up and say deregulate aviation?

Actually I doubt he has an opinion.

A Google search for Jacob Rees-Mogg EASA produces results with the easa crossed out, and a search for his name with the word aviation has odd results. The second has him talking about cutting stamp duty, while the seventh says he has never been to IKEA and doesn't intend to start, and in the eighth he wants to reduce NHS spending.

Don't forget that we didn't have much aviation in the 18th century, which is where the third result says he is from.

Steve6443 21st Apr 2018 07:30


Originally Posted by highcirrus (Post 10119038)
22/04



May I trouble you for a reference to Mr Rees-Mogg's plan, following departure from EASA, to keep Airbus Broughton wing manufacture rolling, Rolls Royce Derby churning out Trents etc and a myriad supporting, sub-contracting manufacturers in business?

Similarly, I've probably missed his commentary on the EU Notice to Stakeholders. Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU Aviation Safety Rules, previously referred to and in particular his plan to counter the devastating effects of: and thus keep flight crews, engineers, air traffic personnel, cabin crew, training departments etc, etc in business, earning to support families and providing significant contribution to the UK tax base. You see, whenever I look, I can't find any details of putative plans for a Rees-Mogg handling of this upcoming catastrophe.

I'm struggling to see what Mr Rees-Mogg - or any other non minister, whether Brexiteer or Remainer - has to do with our future relationship with EASA? Nor about Airbus wing production in Broughton?

Getting back to reality, I'm surprised that wing production is still ongoing in UK at all since the British government has no shares in EADS and, irrespective of our position within the EU, it wouldn't surprise me that Airbus would - sooner rather than later - transfer the jobs to a lower wage economy. Perhaps because Britain would then have no incentive to purchase the A400M?

Going further with Rolls-Royce - yes, tariffs on engines could be damaging to them, especially as Sefran would be exempt from such tariffs but what percentage of their overall business are we talking about here? Customers can choose which engines they want and if Rolls-Royce continue to develop new, more capable engines, why wouldn't customers across the globe continue to specify them? Certification would just be another cost, a cost which they still have to pay today.

On a personal nature, I'm extremely relaxed about what happens after Brexit (I am assuming it will happen because if it doesn't, we would have demonstrated ourselves to be akin to an abused partner - wanting to stop the abuse, but not strong enough to consider life away from said abusive partner - in which case, the EU will know they can impose rules and restrictions on UK without hindrance.) because life will go on, trade will go on.

Capt Kremmen 21st Apr 2018 08:33

Steve6443


Sound appraisal.

highcirrus 29th Apr 2018 09:19

For those readers who would like to get an accurate picture of current Brexit state of play in relation to the UK Aerospace Industry, I'd recommend a browse through Dr Richard North's latest piece at his blog EUReferendum.com . Dr North references the European Commission Notice to Stakeholders, dated 13 April 2018.


This (Notice to Stakeholders) sets out in four pages just how totally dependent our aviation industry is for everything it does on authorisations granted by EASA, applying to every tiniest detail of how we make aircraft, to the running of our airports, to air traffic control, to the airworthiness of aircraft, to the certification and licensing of pilots, cabin crews, engineers, medical staff and trainers; in short, to every last item of what allows our aviation sector to function.

But as the document repeatedly makes clear, the moment the UK leaves the EU to become what it classifies as "a third country", every one of these authorisations and approvals will lapse. Unless each of them is replicated in time, our factories will close, our aircraft will be grounded, our airports and our entire £31?billion-a-year aerospace industry will shut down overnight.
Dr North further writes.


The only clue Mrs May has given as to how she thinks this chaos can be avoided, as she said at the Mansion House, is that we should be allowed to remain in EASA. This was echoed by our own Civil Aviation Authority, which knows it would take years for us to create our own system. But the commission immediately pointed out that we cannot remain in EASA because, as the rules make clear, this is open only to EU members.

And we cannot even apply for the right for our airlines to fly to the EU and other countries until the moment we become a "third country", by a process that could then take months or even years to negotiate. Some of the biggest industry players have been waking up to the threat all this poses. Airbus and Ryanair, for instance, have both spoken of the possibility that their UK operations could "grind to a halt".

In fact, easyJet has already relocated its base to Austria; and Rolls-Royce, the world's second-largest aero-engine manufacturer, we learned last week, is making preparations to move part of its operations to Germany.
Those readers of nervous disposition or terminally closed mind perhaps should not read Dr North's blog!

m.Berger 29th Apr 2018 16:19

So we will remain making parts for Airbus post Brexit because by then we WILL be a low wage economy.

Johnm 29th Apr 2018 19:17

One of the most fascinating aspects of this discussion and many like it is the notion that the EU institutions impose things on the U.K. Oddly enough we’re an influential full member of the EU up to now, so most of the rules and institutions represent a broad consensus of which we have been a party. We have opposed a few things along the way and in fairness it must be said we haven’t won many of those but we’ve also originated many and so led the way on them.

Re-establishing a relationship with the EU is not a trivial piece of work and the consequences of having no relationship at all will be messy to put it mildly. Currently we know how things work, legally, politically, socially and commercially. If we just walk away with no agreement all of that certainty simply disappears overnight. That doesn’t just affect our relationship with the EU, Our other trading partners work with us under EU arrangements so all that goes for a burton too.

After two years I’m still waiting for someone to balance this dog’s breakfast with a single benefit.


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