i dont believe it!
 

seen at the airfield today, on concrete, some guy hand swinging a Stampe, nobody in the cockpit, no chocks, aiming at a line of parked aircraft, how good are those parking brakes?? better than a C152 i hope.

I don't believe the Stampe is fitted with a parking brake.

Was the start successful or even a runaway success perhaps?

Why do I get the feeling that that this "guy" is being regarded as a fool of some kind.
If he was swinging the prop in this fashion, then the chances are he has done it before and might just know what he is doing.
Was it successful?
Did it run away?
Did it run over him?
Did you wait to see if it turned to worms?

it was a success, it didnt run away, he climbed back in and taxiied off,in my aircraft were two atpl holders, 30,000 hours plus between us, both senior instructors, one a caa panel examiner, both shaking our heads,, its all about risk management, just because you get away with a particular technique doesnt make it the right one.
I once saw a successful swing start on a tiger moth , where the throttles were accidentally left fully open, flipped over and was destroyed.

Did he have a rope attached to a ground stake around the tail wheel, with a slip knot, that could be released once he was in the cockpit?

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/stam...c-5-april-2009

I was a close witness to the above, which reduced a pristine biplane to a wreck. Scary as hell as it rotated it's way across the airfield on full power, and a sickening feeling when it took off. Fortunately it didn't get far in the air.

.

Two sides to every argument:

1. He's done it a million times like that, it's always been fine.
2. It only needs to go wrong once and...

Unless there is some major advantage to doing option 1, putting at least some sort of risk mitigation in place seems more sensible. There's enough risk in aviation without ignoring simple solutions to reduce it (and I should know). We're doing 'very risky' things all the time - but we attempt to reduce that risk as much as practically possible (whilst still doing it!).

I hope he was wearing safety glasses, hi vis vest, hard hat and gloves. Can't be too careful with these things you know.

If it's all about risk management and this guy managed the risk, then where is the problem?
I think this is more to do with risk perception by the observer, which is far more variable.
A swing start that flipped over with throttles fully open would not be considered a success, nor was the risk managed in my view.

I took off yesterday, with about ten knots of crosswind straight across the runway from the right.
The farmer was seeding the grass to the left close to the runway.
He stopped to watch me pass.
The tail came up and I swung severely to the left, for a few seconds I was "concerned" to say the least.
With a boot full of right rudder and some right aileron I dragged the left wheel off first and cleared the tractor by forty feet.
We waved.
I do not think I managed the risk very well and I will not repeat that scenario again.

It was the most common practice I remember from my youth. Pretty certain I sat in the Auster at the age of seven while Macey swung it. I think he used to pull the chocks as he climbed in.

"in my aircraft were two atpl holders, 30,000 hours plus between us, both senior instructors, one a caa panel examiner, both shaking our heads,"

How many of the 30,000 hours were in aircraft which are handswung?

What's a senior instructor?

One who has reached old age?

People who fly Stampes/Moths etc tend to be fairly knowledgeable and experienced pilots.
Had either of our two 30,000hr chaps been that concerned , then surely the best way of dealing with this would've been to walk over and enquire if the pilot in question was aware of what he was doing.
He may well have been a lesser experienced guy who could have benefitted from the OP's superior knowledge .
Or he may have been flying Moths/Stampes for as many years as his observers have been flying.
But they can't answer that ; because instead of making a positive input , one of them decided to put it onto a forum instead !

Stampes have brakes

I find it hard to believe that two ATPL "senior" instructors with 30000 hrs between them have got that far down their careers without noticing that swinging a prop on this type of aircraft is quite normal and does not warrant shaking of heads in disbelief.
It begs the question, what exactly do they think of the general competency of pilots who are not known to be quite so God like as they obviously are?
If I were the Stampe pilot and read this thread I think words would be exchanged.

I am still trying to work out what a senior instructor is.

Free bus travel to-from the airfield.

Come on, obvious! :-)

Haha! Nice one Sam!

Interesting how the 'old school' close ranks when one of their numbers is criticised. However familiarity does breed contempt.

I can't quite work out which side is closing ranks?

Speaking as an Instructor and FRE/FE/CRE/TRE as wondering what I needed to become a "senior" Instructor......

Sam suggested a free bus pass Bose, which would seem to fit the bill.

You need to add an FBP rating to your FRE/FE/CRE/TRE

It is actually a thing bose-x, we have one at our airfield. I think the title is bestowed upon them in some way. I haven't quite yet plucked up the courage to ask him how he got it!

Is a "Senior instructor" an instructor who only instructs senior citizens?

On the actual incident - according to David Ogilvy the STampe does indeed have brakes which are too powerful/vicious to be used while taxying and "are intended for parking only".

As I see it the primary concern would be that the throttle might open under vibration, but for all we know this particular aeroplane may have had a throttle lock of some kind (a pin in the throttle quadrant, a physical blanking plate like a U/C ground lock or even just a strap around the throttle from the back). Any of these would adequately mitigate the risk of the throttl;e openning after the start.

The overall risk is still higher than it could be, but whether it is low enough to be tolerable is an individual judgement. It's probably a lower overall risk than commenting on your wife's weight, after all...

:E

PDR

There is a delightful story about an Auster in the 1950s at Sydney's Bankstown Airport that was handswung with the throttle incorrectly set and no chocks and took off, all by itself, on its first ever solo.

It buzzed the field (narrowly missing the tower at one point) for a while, flying wider and wider circles and slowly gaining altitude.

Bankstown is very near Kingsford Smith, Sydney's international airport so this was quite alarming, the RAAF were called in and dispatched a Wirraway that intercepted it when it started heading out over the sea.

They returned unsuccessfully claiming the machine gun had frozen and couldn't fire. The story I was told was that was the reason given by the crew to waiting journalists on their return to the Richmond RAAF base, but as they were telling this to a reporters, a whole belt load's worth of empty cartridge cases dropped onto the apron while a ground handler was putting it to bed...

Auster 1, RAAF 0

Anyway the Navy then dispatched 2 brand new, state of the art (well to the RAN anyway) Meteors. They had terrible trouble trying to get their speed down to take a decent shot at the little Auster puttering along minding its own business, their stall speed exceeded the Auster's Vne! Anyway by the time they managed to get into a position to try shooting it - their guns had frozen too (apparently) so returned without result.

Auster 1, RAN 0

Finally the Navy dispatched an aging Sea Fury (they were coming to the end of their service but still in use) that successfully shot the poor old thing down over the sea :(

Auster 0, RAN 1 in the final.

Again the story I heard was the Sea Fury pilot subsequently painted a small Auster symbol next to the cockpit as a 'kill'.

True story (cannot vouch for the RAAF actually firing after they claimed not to but even if that bit isn't true, it should be :))

Prop swings do vary....
 

At Jack Brown's Seaplane base in Winter Haven Florida your instructor will pull the prop through from the rear while standing ON THE FLOAT.

If you were standing in front of the Cub you would be waist deep in the lake.
(which is frequented by alligators and very nasty snakes).

the term senior is relative, how old are people in senior school? why should senior instructor imply senior citizen?
anyway the thread seems to be about risk management, surely chocks as belt and braces should have been considered, perhaps the pilot was having a senior citizen moment!

Rubbish. I am Head of Training for two ATO and have never heard of such a qualification. A self appointed title maybe.

In fact I am a President Instructor. :p

And you fly Bose Force One...

Perhaps the clue is in the thread title. Victor Meldrew and all that?
Although anyone who uses lower case "i" for the first person can't be that old.

Saw a runaway Beagle Pup about thirty years ago - started in the proper manner by the key, two people in the cockpit.

Presumably the throttle was fairly wide open and the brakes were off; it shot forward, wingtip clipped a petrol pump (or something similar) on the corner of a hangar which spun it round the pump and into the side of the hangar. It was very briefly heading my way and about thirty feet way... ulp!

Right wing clearly wrinkled, not sure about the prop and engine. I believe it was a couple of mechanics who were intending to just taxy it elsewhere on the airfield.

heres a good link to threat and error management - https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/...ning_(OGHFA_BN)
as a previous member pointed out risk is perceived differently by different people, if you were watching from the cafe, it looks low risk, but if you owned one of the parked aircraft it was pointing at it would be high risk!
as the previous posts have shown, ground accidents happen and will continue to do so, but we have to reduce risk otherwise insurance costs will continue to rise for us all.

Well that explains the fake news...

:E:E:E

PDR

George Carlin on adding extra words and titles, Captain v Pilot


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46fOtLfYC4Q

Bose - actually "senior" instructors. Even more bizarre.

One sign of a 'senior' instructor is that they wear white 'pilot's' shirts with black trousers and always have four stripes. I do remember one or two.

I personally haven't flown for a number of years now so am becoming very knowledgable about all matters aviation. I therefore can often be found offering my vaste knowledge of aviation relation matters. I maybe not the only pprune poster in this position :rolleyes:

Ah - you mean like the way I am required to give long and aggressive lectures to people on the absolute eviles of smoking, having myself given up WELL over a year ago...

:hmm::hmm:

PDR

Obviously I do not know the circumstances in this particular case, but I always remember the gist of what Bob Grimstead said many years ago about prop-swinging on you own. His wise words go something like:
1) Tie the stick back and apply handbrake if there is one.
2) Set and lock the throttle at the appropriate setting.
3) Chock the wheels.
4) Tie the tail to something solid with a method of releasing it when in the cockpit after start.
5) Switch the fuel OFF. (The engine will normally run more than long enough for you to get round and switch the fuel on again after a successful start. Try it. You will be surprised how long your engine will run particularly at low revs with the fuel switched off!)

Only then swing the prop using the other normal precautions. You cannot be too careful imho.

PS In single seaters like the Turbulent, D5, Colibri etc, stand behind the prop, in front of the wing with one hand on the switches or throttle.

PPS Obviously, point the plane away from other people, aircraft or solid obstructions!

Isn't it an FI(S) under EASA rules?