Flying Lawyer

"Dream on"


I agree. It will not happen here, will it.

Wonderful news regarding Tim Peake now taking the 2016 Masters Award after further and very careful consideration by the HCAP board. Very well done.

I didn't interpret that as being a retraction of the award for TCT (although I wish it had been). The award can be made to more than one recipient in one year, and in some years it is not awarded at all.

The HCAP appear to have dug their heels in despite the gathering momentum of evidence to show that TCT has, at best, been careless with the truth.

I believe you may have misinterpreted this time deefer. HCAP are not a devious outfit and would now know that the unscrupulous madam deserves zero from them.

https://www.airpilots.org/

I'm failing to see how giving TCT recognition, in the face of what we know now, fits in with the stated aims of the HCAP.

It appears you are correct deefer dog.

HCAP clerk Paul J Tacon spoke an hour ago to Dave Jarvis, the Daily Mail journalist who wrote the story in Saturday's paper.

He confirmed there are two Masters Medals this year.

One well deserved to Tim Peake for his exploits in space.

The other undeserved ( in my opinion) to Tracey Curtis Taylor for her three month dual trip to Australia with airline pilot Ewald Gritsch.

She can claim she was the "sole pilot" of the Spirit of Artifice but denying there were two pilots on board might be more difficult.

At the very least HCAP should recognise Ewald's contribution.

By co-incidence TCT and Ewald received their FAA private pilots licences together at the same time and place:ok:

Jetblu,

For the record at no time did I state or even imply that the HCAP were a "devious outfit." I am familiar with what they do and represent. I simply stated that I do not believe that they will retract the award to TCT. Regrettably I have read nothing that indicates they will retract it.

deefer dog

You are correct. The words used were mine, not yours.

Having read the other posts, I am now utterly and totally speechless, and it now looks like I'm eating my own words.

Unbelievable.

Having a continued interest in fair play, I don't think that there would be any dispute that TCT and EG know each other well and collaborate, regardless of the nature of these particular flights. So, that they got their 61.75s at the same time isn't exactly a cause for criticism.

G

Jetblu,

No problem at all. Yes, it's a tremendous shame, and although they are not likely to admit it there certainly will have been a great deal of consternation among the HCAP membership.

Personally I think it is a large blot on their copybook, and I wonder if the committee that considered TCT's award were concentrating more on the consumption of wine and brandy, or were affected by it, rather than carrying out a modicum of due diligence. I wonder also what previous recipients of this now greatly devalued award may be thinking.

On the plus side perhaps one day Tracey Curtis-Taylor may find herself standing in front of a gold backdrop, much like Tony Blair did yesterday, with a quivering voice and choking back tears, after he had been judged. Let us hope.

Whilst you may not know better, that belittling of the Trophies and Awards Committee is both inaccurate and abusive in tone.

The Masters Medal is solely the prerogative of the Master and is decided by him or her alone. The previous and latest recipients are indicative of the high standards applied: that this one instance has undermined the norm is a reflection on both the recipient and the past Master, not the HCAP nor the T&A committee.

If you look back through previous joint recipients there is 2009.
Flight 1549 landed on the Hudson River thanks to the skill of Sully Sullenberger but was shared by the crew.A truly amazing aviation feat.

Chalkie Stobbart beat a 70 years record.

Contrast those winners to TCT and Ewald.

Like Blair and Brexit no one in the LAA or HCAP has the honesty to say we got it wrong.

If the past Master of HCAP made a mistake based on what he knew at the time then surely he could ask for the matter to be rectified. The same applies to LAA and their Bill Woodham Navigation trophy.

John Eacot,

You are correct - I did not know that the award was the prerogative of one person, and I should have researched that prior to posting. In view of that I retract my comments related to the consumption of wine and brandy, and apologise.

Notably though your admission

adds another dimension. You appear to know the Company rules, so I wonder if the ONE person who decided to grant the award is also permitted to retract it before the ceremony?

Deefer, I also wondered if there might be a precedent for withdrawing a Master's medal.

I'd like to know if HCAP have a procedure for "dealing with" a Master who is alleged to have brought the company into disrepute. I think, and it's just what I think, that maybe the ongoing reluctance to distance the company from TCT might be sufficient grounds.

Obviously that process would need at least one member to suggest that such a tragedy has indeed befallen the HCAP. Perhaps none of the membership feel that way.

Another thought (I'm on a roll here) is that I have not seen anything official from HCAP to say that TCT has been / is to be awarded the Master's Medal. So..... if they didn't tell everyone she's getting it, they wouldn't necessarily feel obliged to tell everyone that she's not now getting it.

Every reputable organisation of this land, and most honourable Courts will put a wrong back to right when the evidence is sufficient, such as this here, whether that be via 12 people, 3, or 1.

I/we await the honourable announcement from HCAP regarding the TCT debacle. I genuinely believe it will happen. I cannot imagine such visual contempt to be allowed by them, I really cant.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We in this industry/sport know the truth. Many of those who read the recent newspaper article may have good reason to doubt the validity of the award also. Certainly there are many within the HCAP, and let's face it the LAA also, who may feel uncomfortable about the accolades their organisations have bestowed upon Tracey Curtis-Taylor, and it's probably fair to say that quite a large number of their members feel that the situation should be rectified.

Will the awards be retracted? I think not. Do I really care that much? It's a shame, but there are much bigger injustices taking place around us, and many of those result in loss of life or freedom.

The HCAP has lost a degree of its credibility, and the Master's Medal has been devalued greatly. Tracey Curtis-Taylor will suck up the award on the due date, just as she has the publicity while her "hand was held" by an instructor as she flew from here to there with an entourage of bag carriers and a film crew. She did so with an embellished CV and had the audacity to give motivational speeches in front of a backdrop stating that she had been "alone in a bi-plane." Clearly she has more front than Sainsbury's, and little respect of the truth. If I were Amy Johnson and heard that TCT had been following in my footsteps, or emulating one of my "solo" flights, I would be turning in my grave.

That's the way I see it anyway. Justice would be watching TCT choke on the medal, but other than that I really don't see much point in blaming the HCAP members. They didn't give the award. Let them deal with the person who did, and maybe he will come to his senses.

That's me done on the subject, so over and out!

Excellent news. He even had the decency not to claim that he was "celebrating" the flight of Yuri Gagarin.

John Eacott,

Re the HCAP..
I have a little bit of a problem with your assertion in post #698, responding to deefer dog...
"The Masters Medal is solely the prerogative of the Master and is decided by him or her alone."

I will again quote from the Terms of Reference for Awards set down by the Trophies and Awards Committee regarding the Masters Medal:
"This is intended to be an immediate award, made at the discretion of the Master and on the advice of the Trophies and Awards Committee." (my bold).

It seems pretty clear to me that it's not an and/or option.
Am I missing something?

Thank you Stanwell,

In view of that I retract my retraction and re-insert the reference to "wine and brandy." :D

In reply to B Fraser
I would prefer to think Tim Peake was 'celebrating' the flight of Helen Sharman:D

India Four Two
If you had read post 50 you would not have needed to scratch your head. Our founders made that decision in 1929.(As did the founders of the Master Mariners three years earlier.) I understand the reason for their decision and see no good reason to depart from it, not least because IMHO what matters is that our activities have continued to keep pace with the fast-changing world of aviation.
The meetings to which I referred in my previous post were not to discuss medieval guilds, nor what is often described as 'the Golden Age of aviation' during which we were founded, but issues that currently affect pilots and issues that will arise in the foreseeable future. (I had similar meetings with equivalent bodies in Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong.)

I don't understand what you mean about our "headquarters address". Our (only) office occupies part of an office building named by its owners in memory of the late Sir Alan Cobham, a distinguished and intrepid aviation pioneer.
Nor am I sure what you mean about "dinners in fancy dress." I explained the occasions when some members wear our 'livery' in post 50. Perhaps you regard 'black tie' as fancy dress? We hold two formal 'black tie' events each year. That is the common dress code for the annual dinners of many associations and clubs in the UK.
We decided upon 'white tie' to celebrate a very special milestone in our history: HM The Queen bestowed Honourable Company status upon us. We are the second of only two livery companies ever to receive that honour.
Are we proud of it? Yes, very.
Was the white tie banquet fun? Yes, great fun. http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ir-pilots.html

Jetblu
You have misinterpreted my comment "Dream on."
I don't share your view regarding the legal aspect.

deefer dog
Your "wine and brandy" theory is wrong.
The rationale for the award to TCT has already been posted.
I readily understand the opinions expressed.

(Edit)

Genghis
I suspect you have misunderstood Jay Sata's point about TCT and Ewald Gritsch obtaining their FAA private pilots licences at the same time and place.

Flying Lawyer


You have misinterpreted my comment "Dream on."

Yes, I did. My apologies.


I don't share your view regarding the legal aspect.

Ok. Personally, I don't believe that specimen would need much modification, but even Judges sometimes disagree with one another, don't they. Nevertheless, I respect your position and understand why.

That said, like you, I also understand the views of what others have said here and elsewhere too, and it does rather seemingly appear like a one finger salute of "we're doing it anyway." I just hope that I am really wrong.

I don't see what all the fuss is about. If the award has done so much damage to the HCAP surely they could just drop the H?

On a more serious note, it's a very desirable characteristic in a pilot to accept when you've made a mistake, learn from it, and correct it if you can.

Now that the HCAP know the truth behind her flights, perhaps they will take the opportunity to set an example and correct their mistake.

Jetblu

My disagreement doesn't relate to the 'specimen'.
We'll leave it at that.

Perhaps he could elaborate?

My point really was that regardless of the solo /dual thing - it's clear that the two are close collaborators in things aeronautical, so that they did their FAA licences together didn't strike me as all that relevant to anything.

If there is a particular relevance then yes, I'm missing it.

G

HCAP obviously have as much integrity as TCT.

Anyone here a member ?
No ?
Anyone would like to be a member ?
No ?
HCAP care ?
No ?

I wonder why there are no members here ?
Obvious isn't it ?

Sad state of affairs isn't it, but when those who are held in contempt don't care they are being held in contempt, or more accurately are arrogant enough to not care, it gives you a measure of the organisation.

Of course it is pleasing to think that a group of people unit to offer an award for accomplishment. I'm certain that is entirely good will, and with promotion of aviation at the heart. Such an award is, in my opinion, something like a very formal and public compliment. You gotta like a compliment, the good will which originates it.

When I have received compliments, I have appreciated every one. That said, some had more meaning to me than others. I have found that a quiet compliment about my flying around the campfire at a fly in camp has meant more to me than a much more formal award. That value of the "compliment" to me was based upon the person/entity offering it to me, and who were other recipients. All are good, some more good than others.

I accept FL's information that the HCAP spans continents with good will toward aviators. Being a backwoods flier, who only rarely enters controlled airspace, some of these refined elements of aviation have passed me by un-noticed. I hope that the HCAP affirms/asserts their standards, so as to maintain the good public image of the good that they do, by assuring that their awards are presented to truly worthy recipients.

In the same spirit, I hope that TCT affirms her sense of honour by only accepting awards which she knows in her heart are truly earned with honour similar to those fine aviators who are previous recipients - that is how she can best honour them.

Poor Tim Peake, he's going to have to accept his award alongside TCT. Rather devalues it doesn't it. Will the TCT camp use him as a photo opportunity, that'll be hilarious when it happens. I'll be amazed if it doesn't. HCAP will most probably arrange it !

That may well give you a measure of the organisation, but not of the membership.

Resigning is but one option for members who still have, and value their honour. Perhaps the wheels of justice are indeed grinding slowly in the background. I feel that personal attacks on members of HCAP are unwarranted, but the company is certainly damaged by this affair.

Genghis

I may be wrong but I think Jay Sata's point was that if Ewald Gritsch was just "her passenger" in the Stearman, as TCT claims, he would not need an FAA licence.

Perhaps he wanted in case he had an urge to do some local solo flying/aerial sightseeing while the intrepid aviatrix and adventurer took the occasional hard earned break from her epic journey across America.
Or in case he wanted to do some air tests following engineering work.
Or just as a souvenir of the momentous flight in which he was privileged to a passenger.

There could be a whole host of reasons why he wanted an FAA licence even though he wasn't sharing the flying, just a passenger.
Jay can be so unkind at times. ;)

As possibly the only "other" person in the crew who could fly the Stearman, I think it made perfect sense for him to get an FAA ticket, just in case something happened to TCT.

That's one of the few bits that I don't see any deceit in.

If he only wanted to babysit TCT, navigate for her, intervene in an emergency, there would be no legal reason for him to hold a pilot's license. If they were trying, futilely, to hide the fact that he is a pilot - it wouldn't make sense to apply for an FAA license which is held on a searchable database.

The only reasons I can see for him to hold an FAA license are legitimate ones.

I assume Jay Sata will explain what he meant when he's next on line.


airpolice Thank you.

Incidentally, the TV film was made by Yorkshire TV, not the BBC. I do have a DVD of it, if anyone is interested. ( I was Judith's husband).

I was suggesting it was quite a coincidence that Tracey Curtis Taylor and Ewald Gritsch both obtained their FAA licences on 23rd September 2013,
see http://www.pprune.org/9410294-post480.html

I would have expected Ewald to hold an FAA part 61 licence long before September 2013. He carried out test and other flights on N56200 in Hungary and probably flew it pre purchase in Belgium.

http://www.stearman.at/South_Africa_to_England.html

It puzzles me is how she flew an American registered aircraft across Europe to Fairford UK in July 2013 two months before the issue of her FAA licence.

Am I missing something?

Given the fact that she has an aversion to complicated cross country flights he must have been in the front seat on arrival at Fairford.

Sam Rutherford earlier in this thread stated her problems with long or complicated solo cross country flying which of course was confirmed by her arrival in Sydney with Ewald on board.

It was only a 45 minute hop from RAAF Richmond but the airspace is very busy with traffic in and out of Bankstown.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/N56200

Pre-purchase he would most likely have flown with a licenced pilot. It also depends which state issued Ewald's National or EASA licence. (Or Tracey's).

However

Now that IS an interesting question, especially as the photos depicting the flights show the aircraft wearing its N registration.

It is my understanding that it is permissible for an N reg aircraft to be flown outside of the US by the holder of a National licence, or an EASA licence, but only within the territory of the state that issued the licence. In this latter respect EASA member states as a group are not one singular state. Accordingly flights within or over those states between Hungary/Belgium and the UK conducted in an American registered aircraft should, I believe, be carried out by the holder of an FAA licence.

From a previous thread on the subject of licencing, and flying N reg in Europe:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf


http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

abgd

"If they were trying, futilely, to hide the fact that he is a pilot - it wouldn't make sense to apply for an FAA license which is held on a searchable database."

The deceit couldn't be applied if he wasn't an licensed pilot, [ATPL] could it.

Generally, as FL will attest, these types of characters never believe that they will get caught. Remarkably, as we have seen here, innocence to the 'solo'/'alone' is still being proclaimed despite the damning evidence.

To EG credit, he has told the journalist the truth in relation to him being aboard as licensed pilot.

"The only reasons I can see for him to hold an FAA license are legitimate ones."

Quite probable. I have not seen enough evidence here to suggest that he was a conspirator. Sometimes, it's not just about what is said, what is not said can also play a very equal part.

Just to be clear. I didn't make a personal attack on any member of HCAP.
I said that it is a measure of the organisation that it is either too arrogant to care, or simply doesn't care how it is viewed when handing out awards that are not deserved. They may still think the award is deserved of course, which would also be disappointing.

My point was that it's a sad state of affairs that they are still making the award and that TCT is accepting it.

To reiterate just once more what I said, it shows that HCAP obviously have as much integrity as TCT in this little matter.

If they are damaged by it as you say, it is in their power to put matters right. So they either do not believe they are damaged, or they don't care.

Perhaps some may have not noticed, but the goalposts had been shifted...
It's now ALL about women in aviation, don't you see?
It's not about Tracey at all .. she's just the messenger.

You people just don't seem to see that our ever-so-altruistic Tracey's sole motivation from the outset had only been to highlight
discrimination against women - a very worthy cause and one which should be embraced by all.
Right!

I attended a luncheon this afternoon at which a number of women were present.
By co-incidence, among the girls were two PPLs and an ATPL (that I know of).
The comments I overheard when TCT came into a conversation ranged from .. "A Disgrace!", to .. "She's an embarrassment to all of us!"
I'm sure it didn't really mean anything - you know how girls are when they get together over a couple of glasses of wine.

I sat quietly with my (female) companion and, aside from drawing her attention to the discussion, refrained from comment.
Seems it doesn't just get discussed on here, then.
.

EG is probably as annoyed about all of this as those here and elsewhere who are objecting to the award. He hasn't been seeking admiration or credit anywhere - in fact he has kept a very low profile, and what he has stated to the press seems to align with the truth.

Also the status of his licence or licences, whether EASA or FAA are irrelevant because it is TCT who has claimed to be THE sole pilot (and "alone" in a bi-plane) throughout, so for that reason I see no reason to accuse or point fingers at EG.

He has been sucked into a drama that appears to be not of his making. If that is the case I see no reason to drag him through any mud.