Tips for nailing a landing?
 

Hey guys,

I'm currently working through circuits for my PPL in a PA-38 and I am really struggling with the touchdown/flare, and was wondering whether anyone had any tips?

I can fly it almost perfectly to around 50ft off the ground but then for some reason I cannot for the life of me get a smooth landing without ballooning or hitting down on the nose wheel.

In an average lesson, I can get just about get 2 out of 5 landings good, but can't always visualise when to reduce power or pitch up slightly. I know there is no fool proof way as every landing is different, but as anyone got any tips to visualise when to put the nose up slightly to touchdown?

The soul destroying part is that I was doing circuits last August, but with my 2 instructors leaving (who had taught me from day one), planes uncircuitable and british weather has meant that I have had inconsistent flying (literally around 4 flights between Oct and March) despite regular booking!

Prior to my instructors leaving, I was nearly there, and with a few more hours would have nailed it, but with inconsistency its 2 steps forward, 3 steps back! My instructor assures me its only normal, but wondering if I will ever get there! (and I think my instructor is starting to despair with me too!).

I am hoping to get some good hours now that "summer" is around the corner, so just need a plan of action!

Thanks

Speed
 

Personally, nail the approach speed as per the P.O.H. There are are loads of tips but I feel if you are at the correct speed at short finals the rest falls into place.
Good luck 'Rome wasn't built in a day' :ok:

How many hours do you have now? I'm guessing not too many and I think what you're seeing is the inconsistency that we all went through as very low time pilots. It sounds like you just need to fly more, and get some successes under your belt; the consistency will arrive as you start doing things right more often. Have a look at the next thread re full-stall landings etc. Correct approach speed is vital, as is having a "make it happen" attitude. Never let the aircraft touch down until it's in the right attitude (which your instructor can demonstrate on climb-out or at altitude, when there are fewer things happening), properly aligned with the centre line etc. You're not there as a passenger so gently but firmly set yourself up - don't feel like it's all happening around you.

By the way, has your instructor tried the old trick of making you fly level above the runway without touching down? Of course, as a low-time pilot you won't manage to keep the aircraft off the runway, but you'll learn good touch-down attitudes. Worked for me :)

Thanks for the tips!

@tecman - between Oct and March I had lessons booked every week. So I suppose yeah, I am "low time". There was a period of 3 weeks of no circuit-able planes at the school, and most weeks consisted of an 16kt crosswind, low mist/fog or chucking it down with rain.

My lovely airfield has played the "we're shutting the runway to learning flights today' a few times too.

Never heard of a field doing that before, that's a pretty BS deal!! why do they do that?

From another thread (and there is some dissent in this regard), but for me: fly the approach with a trickle of power in. And find a fix at the end of the rwy, not too close.

Landings
 

I was always told that there were three golden rules to a good landing.









But no one knows what they are!

look at the END the runway when rounding out not straight down at the ground, I am only 35 hours into my PPL and that was eye opening for me despite being told it from the beginning, I've only started doing it properly recently.

Aim at the runway but miss for as long as possible.

FBW

Sywell do that too during fly-ins. Guess if you're being swamped by arriving traffic the last thing you need is people doing circuits.

The secret of landings is to round out at low height and correct approach speed look at the end of the runway and then try not to land. That means pulling the yoke back slowly and steadily and if you have it spot on you'll touch down with stall warning blaring and the yoke all the way back

Then practice lots

Shifting the sight point from the touchdown point that you've been staring at since turning base to towards the end of the runway is the critical learning point and that's because it allows accurate sink assessment via peripheral vision. It takes time to get to this point in understanding and in ability to fly the approach consistently to arrive at the flare point on speed and at the same attitude time and time again. Once that skill has been developed it can be refined and your capacity and mental picture will refine to take in the small changes in sink, speed and power that are needed to land well every time. There will be an odd clanger from time to time and some you won't be able to explain because the wind changed, the power didn't quite pick up the sink, the runway was narrower, a different colour even.

It is frustrating but experience and recognising the picture takes time. From then on, you'll know when the picture is different and whether you were expecting that difference and you'll develop techniques to address the differences. Thinking ahead and reacting steadily with measured inputs rather than stabs and yanks helps a lot; particularly close to the ground. That applies to both control and power inputs. Be completely in trim prior to starting the flare.

In a nutshell: aim for utter consistency in circuits and approaches right down to the flare to enable capacity to learn the finer points. You know already when it's not going quite right, so think about each time it has gone well and each time it hasn't gone so well and think each of them through. Get an instructor to demo a landing from time to time and get them to talk out loud what they're sensing and how they're correcting and where they're looking and what they're reacting to in respect of wind/sink/power/speed. Critique their flying (perhaps to yourself, although any experienced instructor should be honest enough to talk through the good and bad of their own performance to aid your learning).

10,000 hours and still learning: if that's any consolation. My first aeroplane was a Tomahawk and I don't view it particularly fondly now. The 152 was much easier to land.

Great post by Nellie there, lots of stuff to take in.

I haven't a clue how I land, I just do it now. It's a bit like driving, when you're learning it's all thinking 'overtake, mirror, indicate' or something like that, then when you've been driving for years you may drive a hundred miles without even remembering the journey. Same with flying and I'm always impressed when guys like Nellie with a squillion hours can articulate what the basics are.

Good luck and keep us updated.

I am with Johnm on this one. It is all about trying not to land. But, try to not land from a very low height.
Bryan

I've not seen you flying, so I'm taking pot luck here, but I'm guessing that this....

Is the core of your problem.

During your early days, you MUST have regular flights and consistent instruction. Different instructors have different styles and methods of doing their job.... add into that gaps in your flying routine and you're just going to start loosing what you've worked hard to build up.

Landings are tricky to master but easy once you've "got it" .... but the inconsistency in your instruction isn't helping matters.

Either change school to somewhere a bit busier and less prone to changes, or if you like your place, or change is not an option talk to the school and perhaps get them to assign you someone more senior who's part of the furniture and therefore not likely to up sticks any time soon.

Piperboy, You obviously haven't been to my place then!! ;)

Seriously, Chicgeek, you'll get there, consistency though as I have found, is vital with FI, consistency of trips, FTO and aircraft. I am a Stude too and I do have a problem with the consistency of trips - the great British Wx not helping!

My landings, if its any consolation, are usually of dubious quality and I surprise both of us on the very odd occasion I pull off a greaser (unfortunately, never when solo, and not very often...theres always something i've messed up :ouch:) I won't tell you the way i'm taught, as it may be different to you and there are Instructors on here who are worth listning to on that. But i will jsut say that I've found that (not saying you aren't of course!) but from my point of view, patience, when landing an aircraft is a good thing... I speak from experience in landing without much in the early days :hmm: :O

Thanks for your comments guys!

Totally agree about the consistency. Unfortunately I think its been a whole chain of events. Sadly the school lost one of the instructors last august in a crash which as you can imagine was a factor in the other one departing the school! Together they were a great team, as one had taught the other one so everything was seamless and really consistant throughout! Definitely feel like I took it all for granted now!

The flying school itself has been supportive and reassembled a great team so I am confident about my instructor now, its just at times like this when you are so close, you start to doubt yourself. However, I sharn't let it defeat me at this late stage! I can get it in the air, I can fly it around, just need to get it back on the ground!

Having heard all of your comments I think I have been focusing too much on landing it with a perfect flare, instead of just trying to get it on the ground softy to start with! I know for a fact that I haven't been looking down the runway, which now seems completely obvious!

As for the airfield, Hawarden ATC has its wonderful quirks, even shutting down the apron outside the school's hangar the other week, they must just know I am coming! :8

Flying again Thursday, so wish me luck for a sunny day and an open runway!

For new pilots I have found the secret to good landings is a consistent approach pitch attitude. That is you have the attitude for the correct approach speed nailed during from 300 feet to the start of the flare and the power is not adjusted. By that I mean the nose is not bobbing up and down it stays steady. This gives you a consistent repeatable sight picture so that the "look" of correct time to start the flare doesn't change.

If you are coming low and flat on some approaches and high and steep on others the sight picture will be different on every landing and thus it will be much harder to judge the flare.

The proper approach speed is also very important. Flight schools tend to use excessive speeds on the approach and so the flare is prolonged giving the poor student more time to screw things up.

I also believe that you don't mess with power in the flare. When it is time to flare power comes smoothly to idle and the nose comes up to just above the level flight attitude, hold that until you feel the aircraft descending and then continue to pitch up to the landing attitude.

Finally the most important thing for the landing is that the aircraft touches down in the correct nose high attitude. If you are a little high and the aircraft drops the last foot with a bit of a thud, but in the correct nose high landing attitude, that is still a acceptable, safe landing. What is not acceptable is a flat landing where all three wheels touch at the same time or even worse a nose wheel first landing.

Thanks for your comments guys!

Totally agree about the consistency. Unfortunately I think its been a whole chain of events. Sadly the school lost one of the instructors last august in a crash which as you can imagine was a factor in the other one departing the school! Together they were a great team, as one had taught the other one so everything was seamless and really consistant throughout! Definitely feel like I took it all for granted now!

The flying school itself has been supportive and reassembled a great team so I am confident about my instructor now, its just at times like this when you are so close, you start to doubt yourself. However, I sharn't let it defeat me at this late stage! I can get it in the air, I can fly it around, just need to get it back on the ground!

Having heard all of your comments I think I have been focusing too much on landing it with a perfect flare, instead of just trying to get it on the ground softy to start with! I know for a fact that I haven't been looking down the runway, which now seems completely obvious!

As for the airfield, Hawarden ATC has its wonderful quirks, even shutting down the apron outside the school's hangar the other week, they must just know I am coming! :8

Flying again Thursday, so wish me luck for a sunny day and an open runway!

BPF,

Excellent advice. :ok:

Chicgeek, I too struggle with good consistant landings although I went solo last year.
There has been some good advice given here but one or two are focusing on the approach phase which from your post you seem to be happy with.

I am almost sure my problem is not being able to judge my height above the runway to know when to start the hold off and flare.

A number of more experienced pilots suggested I ask my FI to fly down the runway at say 10ft just so I could get the 'picture', sadly that never happened so I am still hunting for that 'picture'.
If you think your problem is judging that height ask your FI to fly along the runway, it may be easier where you learn (I have a good idea where that is).

The other thing that helped me with the final nose high attitude was low speed flight with full flaps (or whatever flap you use for landing) at say 1500 - 2000ft. At that altitude you can fly for ages so have plenty of time to memorize the relationship of the horizon to the nose of the aircraft. That is the attitude for the final stages of landing, you are effectively flying at very low speed trying to stop the aircraft landing.
If only it were that easy in real life :)

BPF gets my vote for the most succinct and important piece of advice:

I'll add this:
as you fly the approach look at the picture of the runway, then glance at the asi, then the picture, then the asi - alternating about every 2-3 seconds. You can say out loud "picture, speed, picture, speed, picture..." if it helps. You must nail the approach speed that you have previously elected to fly the approach at, to within +/-2knots using the pitch attitude of teh aircraft. and you must use power to keep the picture right. (cue for debate about point and power, but I'm talking about typical single engine PPL trainers). Keep doing this right down until round-out height.

The advice about looking at the far end of the runway as you round out is spot on too. In tandem seat aircraft the instructor can tell when the student is getting this bit right because he can see from the back that the student's head moves fractionally as they change where they are looking. (OK that only works in aircraft where the instructor sits in the back).

Tips for nailing a landing?
 

I was told some tips be various people:

1: keep speed right
2: flare about "double decker bus height"
3: hold it off - keep flying while looking at end of runway

Tips for nailing a landing?
 

I really really struggled with landings too ( still not always perfect either)

I've got a few pieces of advice for you , some helpful others probably not so helpful now but I guarantee you that you'll look back and see what I meant

1 nail the approach speed , get that right , everything else follows

2 learn what that approach speed looks like , so you're not chasing the ASI ( and you can cope when you're bleeping instructor sticks a post it note over it)

3 keep flying the plane , right down to the landing , especially when disheartened by previous poor landings its easy to give up and not try , don't .

4 don't stress about them , fly the circuit as well and as error free as you can , I swear that if you do that , eventually ,almost magically ; the landings will fix themselves

5 going around is always an option . If you are too fast , too high and otherwise not happy , go around . Sometimes that plane just wants to fly and you need to let it , never force it on tint he runway .

I know exactly how you feel , I was stuck in the circuit for what felt like years before I managed to do anything reassembling a reasonable landing

Oh and just to add insult to injury, once you have nailed them , if you take a break from circuits for whatever reason , it's not unheard of for you to be once again imitating captain kangaroo !

Believe me , I know :(

Some years ago I wrote an article about judging the height for landing here on Pprune.

Reading this thread has prompted me to do it all over again.

It will take me some time to write it all over again but if anyone here wants me do write it again I will.

As to looking at the far end of the runway to judge height above the runway that advice is really not all that valuable.

To best demonstrate what looking into the far distance does for your situational awareness here is an experiment you can do that will not wreck an airplane.

Next time you are pulling up behind a car at a stop light rather than looking at the car you are about stop behind try looking a mile ahead of the car you are stopping behind.

Let me know how it works out.

I'm in the same boat as you. Interrupted training has meant it's taken me a while to nail the landings and I was getting a little frustrated. But last lesson it all came together.
I found I did a lot better once the instructor said he'll leave the lot to me - not feeling his weight on the controls did wonders as I was reacting to what I saw out the windscreen rather than his actions.

Students who struggle with their landings are invariably looking in the wrong place prior to the round out point. Sounds like you've been told correctly how to fly the approach because you say its going wrong below 50ft.

Fact is, where you look during the approach needs to change below 50ft, typically about rooftop height (30ftish) thats the point where you need to stop looking at the aiming point, instead look well down the runway before starting the flare (your peripheral vision plays an important role at this stage). You need to slow down the descent rate and that's done by reducing power slowly and raising the nose such that the approach becomes flatter BUT keep looking well ahead of the aircraft and all the way down the runway.

Remember its your peripheral picture thats helping you during the flare. The runway edge markings which were below shoulder height (from a peripheral vision perspective) when you changed your lookout to the furthest end of the runway, and the edge markings come up to meet your ears (again from a peripheral viewpoint - don't actually look to the side, just keep looking well ahead) and as this is happening keep gently checking backwards on the control column to arrest the sink rate, do it progressively whilst taking all of the power off until the aircraft can no longer fly and sinks gently onto the runway.

The secret ALWAYS is to keep looking well ahead but be aware of the runway edge perspective using your side vision!

Chuck, please do re-write the article.:ok:

Simple geometry says you cannot judge height or sink rate by looking at a single distant point, so the end of the runway cannot be the only place to look.

One more thing on peripheral vision.

Human peripheral vision is good for night vision, and for detecting peripheral movement, but is almost useless apart from that. It is low resolution and not even in colour. You think you have all-round hi-res colour vision because the brain makes a mental map. In effect, the brain remembers what it has already looked at and fills in the gaps as required. It is very, very, good at that, but you must have actually looked at the thing first.

So as you come down final approach I would suggest you have a good look at the runway size and shape, and how the different bits move in relation to each other and the horizon.

It will improve your "peripheral vision" enormously.

Try doing it the other way round :}

(Tongue in cheek, but not quite as flippant as it seems!)

I'm sorry Chuck Ellsworth but I have to disagree quite strongly with your assertion about the usefulness of using the far end of the runway as the new aiming point once the flare has begun, and suggest your proposed experiment to prove your point is completely illogical and irrelevant.

Using the far end of the runway certainly does allow the pilot to maintain a high level of situational awareness!

It allows you to:
a. Judge how much runway you have left in front of you
b. Judge the drift at the beginning of the flare, allowing you to make the right amount of initial rudder input, and then reassessing the drift and amount of correction required to keep the nose straight with the runway to touchdown.
c. Eliminates over corrections with the elevator inputs. (This is a big plus.)

The plane virtually lands itself!

Knowing when to start the flare and transfer from your initial aiming point during the approach (usually around 300 metres if you have a threshold crossing height of 50 ft above the threshold and an approach slope of 3 degrees (5%)???

Two words... "Jacobson Flare". Google it! There's also a youtube video in a C172.

I've been using the Jacobson Flare for 25 years, ever since I was flying Piper Warriors in 1987. I've used it on B767's and now the B737. It simply works and anyone who says it doesn't is only showing their ignorance about what it is and what it isn't.

It works on wider runways than you are used to (you're higher than you think), narrower runways (you're lower than you think!). It is great during strong crosswinds (see above about drift).

It's simply brilliant.

Here's is one instructor's take on it. (It has one of the youtube video's linked)

http://aviationmentor.********.com.a...ns-ladder.html

I seldom post here because inevitably it ends up in an argument on a keyboard that is seldom of much benefit to either party.

We can disagree for sure, but an open mind sometimes helps.

For me the easiest approach and landing is the curving approach from down wind to the touch down with a constant bank angle, looking at the far end of the runway during such an approach is not really logical as the far end of the runway will be either off to the left or the right as you are still turning up to the moment of the flare.

My suggestion in the former post of looking a mile past a car you want to stop behind is not illogical...for the simple reason you are looking in the wrong place.....an airplane is really no different when it comes to a visual aim point.

If your center of aim is at the far end of the runway your situational awareness with regard to height above the runway is degraded for the simple reason you are looking to far ahead.

I had the same problem - the speed was spot on but the flare was the problem - I did nots of landing but the problem was the flare, with the same results you mention but not too much bounce (the speed being right).

The solution was found when the owner of the flight school, a retired USAF colonel, on hearing of the problem said - when you're about to land (the flare) portion the view out the window should look like it does when you take off - this fixed the problem, I rotated in the flare aggressively after that and no more problems - the stall horn going off was something I'd been trying to avoid, niw I flare with it hooting away, they are calibrated a few kts abive the stall it turns out.

It has got to be a little difficult if weather prevents training but as with everything lots of practice is the trick no matter what the mechanical silution to the problem

Height judgement will depend on the picture the pilot flying is seeing, knowing where to look and what to look for is the secret.

When teaching the last stage of the approach and the flare and lastly the landing I explain to the student where they should look and why.

Then I fly the approach, flare and landing and count down the height above the runway starting at 100 feet.

The student observes and prints the call out height in the picture they are seeing, that really gives them a benchmark from which to get the picture.

There is a similarity between light aircraft and large jets......the jets call out the height above ground / runway in a voice prompt right down to touchdown......in fact the Airbus even tells you when to close the throttles... the retard call out..

I have been doing the height call out long before the big jets included height call out's as part of the approach and landing

This was one of my early ones

http://youtu.be/JzFUHgTNNHc

24 carrot thinks peripheral vision plays no part in landing an aircraft during day time flying but with a very humble 15,000 hours under my belt using just that technique I beg to differ.

Try this very convincing little exercise if you're a doubter:

Stand upright, looking straight ahead at a fixed distant point with your arms outstretched either side, and whilst continuing to look straight ahead move your arms slowly up and down. Unless you're unfortunate and have an eyesight defect, you cannot help but notice the rate of movement of your arms through your peripheral vision.

That rate of change, seen through the peripheral vision is a vital sensor which most of us use in the landing phase without realising we're even doing it. Looking way down the runway as explained by Chuck Ellsworth, is absolutely vital - without doing so, or focusing too short will cause you to miss out on that one vital additional visual cue, which enables you to assess sink rate - its available through your periphery but only if you fixate on a point a long way ahead of you.

You need to to check back in the flare to keep the aircraft flying level just above the runway but at the same time you need to decrease power to stop the aircraft flying. If you continue to look straight ahead whilst this is going on you cannot help but monitor the sink or lift rate and adjust the flare accordingly.

I use the above technique whether flying a B757 or whilst teaching students in a PA28, it's all the same whatever you fly.

I miss the days of flying the DC3, great little airplane and a pure delight to fly.

Landings almost always were with the throttles closed at around fifty feet except in a few instances such as on skis with flat light on snow surfaces.

Sapco, we are completely at cross purposes.

Of course "peripheral vision" is essential to landing.

My point is that what we call "peripheral vision" is actually a combination of poor eye and excellent brain. If you literally force yourself to fixate on one single point you will have extremely poor "peripheral vision". The more natural human behaviour is to flick your eyes around what you are looking at. Which is what I suggested.

Here is another fun example of the brain's visual system at work: get somebody to throw something (soft) at you, so you can catch it. Close your eyes while it is in mid-air. Odds are you will still catch it... Now, before you tried this, how did you think you caught things?

And no, I am not suggesting you close your eyes while landing... :)

Your comments about peripheral vision are valid 24 carrot.

Another couple of examples of where one fixes their visual center is when scooping water with a water bomber you do not look at the far end of the lake because you will not be able to judge the wave action ahead of you and even more important you may not see any debris such as dead head logs in the pickup path.

Also during very low level agricultural spraying runs down long fields your life expectancy would be brief if you only looked at the far end of a long field.

The ultimate example that peripheral vision and looking far down is essential to good landings I learned when I was trying to fly helicopters. To learn to hover is the skill that needs mastering before anything much can be done in a helicopter, so normally that comes pretty early in training (although I never finished my training). As so many before me, I struggled to get it right. I was looking out the side or bottom windows of the Hughes 300C and by the time it came to correct, it was almost always too late and the oscillations got worse and worse until my instructor had to save the day. Over-corrected mess in conjunction with being late on the ball. This went on for some time. Finally my instructor said:

"See that house far away at the edge of the field?"
"Yes?"
"Fixate on that and try to hover"
"OK..."

And that was literally it. I could immediately hover ten seconds later. It's like that moment when you learn to ride a bike - it just clicks.

Although hovering and landing in a FW are not the same, they use the same skill sets and visual signals. Also, helicopter long-lining with underslung loads uses these skills to not only judge hover, but also height very precisely. Looking straight down at the target one wouldn't think that enough visual cues can be provided, but the peripheral vision makes this possible. Here's a little film made by veteran helicopter pilot Earl Watters as he lifts a plane wreckage out of the desert. You can see that he looks straight down for all lifting operations, and still manages to judge height and hover very precisely at 1:33:

First STEp :BUY STICK AND RUDDER
 

step one, buy "STICK AND RUDDER", read the book, memorize it...detailed information on judging height and more.

two...go to a department store with escalators...go on the ''down'' escalator many times...you are in effect on a glideslope to a touchdown...you will learn the same sort of timing for landing as the feel for getting off the escalator correctly.

think of landing as taking an automobile to a stop sign and not over shooting or undershooting the stop...its energy management.

I taught in the PA38, many, many hours...It is very hard to trim correctly for the approach speed for one person in the plane.

so, make sure you do a weight and balance and make sure you are in proper envelope...I mean it, you might be at the forward edge depending on fuel and ballast.

go out and fly the plane in the landing configuration and get an exact speed of stall and see if 1.3 times that speed (with full flaps) is the approach speed in the book.

ask someone if the runway slopes uphill or downhill and let me know.

AND GO OUT AND BUY AND READ STICK AND RUDDER BY WOLFGANG LANGWEISCHE.

fly as much as possible at safe altitude in the landing configuration at approach speed and see how it feels...do this with at least 3000' of altitude above ground and with a cfi.