Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
 

Hello,

I am finally close to completing my PPL, and have thus been considering my options for recreational hire, and possibly CPL hour building if I decide I want to work towards the fATPL. I am currently flying the PA28-161 (having flown the first half of my course on the Grob 115A).

One of the options available to me after finishing is buying into a Cirrus SR20 group. I have sat in the cockpit as the manager of this particular FTO showed me the various features of the plane, and found myself very impressed with the setup (most of all the side-stick control and avionics suite).

However, I am concerned about a couple of things (other than the cost!).

Firstly, being a new PPL (looking to hopefully pass with around 55 hours), would my lack of experience be an issue? There is a policy of having to complete at least 10 hours instruction in the aircraft before I can hire it, and of course an instructor wouldn't sign me off to fly if they do not believe I am competent enough to do so anyway, but I am thinking more long-term. I have seen reports that the Cirrus has a comparitively poor safety record with a particularly high incidence of stall related accidents, could it be that the level of handling skills required might be pushing it for a low houred pilot?

Secondly, it seems that there have also been problems with the door mechanisms, leading to issues with doors opening in flight more commonly than typical for light aircraft. However, most of the reports that I found are not that recent, could it be this problem has now been fixed by Cirrus?

Would appreciate any feedback on these points!

Thanks,

Odai.

Wast of money
 

If hour building for the CPL is your goal then you need to practice basic navigation and aircraft handeling.

Following the magenta line by autopilot is not going to help you one bit, get yourself into a C152 or PA28 it will cost less and teach you more and you are unlikely to find yourself doing an overly long training course to fly a fixed gear SEP just because some people seem to think it is a bit of a rocket ship.

Doors

They still might (open). It is not a problem. Slow down, land a relatch the door. I have had it happen a couple of times. The problem stems from not making absolutely sure the door is properly latched in the first place, in particular dont leave it to thd pax.

Flying

There is nothing about the 20 that is difficult. Some struggle a bit with the speeds and staying ahead of the aircraft. If you do you just may not be a "natural" and will have to accept it takes longer. There is nothing unusual about the stall (it is all myth) and the accident rate is not exceptional (another myth).

Get some good instruction and you will be fine.

A and c makes a valid point.

A&C makes a valid point about learning conventional nav and instrument skills before moving into an aircraft like the Cirrus.
If I was you maybe tackle the IMCR first so you can get the full benefit of the aircraft which is a tourer.
I too think far too much is made of the Hot ship argument which basic handling skills should more than cope with!
Apart from that a great choice with the added benefit of the chute which has proved very reliable and saved many lives!
The 10 hour requirement is a complete nonsense IMO if you need 10 hrs 20 hrs or whatever so be it but 5 hrs is perfectly adequate for a competant pilot!
Anything more than 5 hrs due to insurance smacks more of work and income for the boys rather than a genuine insurance requirment.
You should not be wasting your money learning the nav/ displays in the aircraft anyway so it's 10 hrs to learn to handle a simple single engine fixed gear aircraft! Crazy and daylight robbery.

Pace

The Cirrus is a great aeroplane. So is a Chipmunk. I have over a 100 hrs on the former and over 1000 on the later (I only mention that so that you know I have some experience).

Like the Chippy (once described as a wolf in sheeps clothing), the Cirrus can bite. I personally don't think it has a stalling problem. It is a little slippery and one needs to plan one's slow-down. I found the main problem was landing. The Cirrus does not like landing fast. Whereas a Bulldog, PA28 etc can accept 5 - 10 kts hot, in a Cirrus you may well come to grief. Read the accident reports.

However, if you adopt the right technique the aerplane will reward you well. It is a great tourer.

Yes the doors can open in flight, even if correctly adjusted and closed properly. It has happened to me on several occasions, though invariable only one latch fails so the door stays in place. A landing is thus required!

Sharpend offers some excellent advice. I owned a Cirrus SR22 for four years. There have been numerous prop strikes in Cirrus aircraft, and I can confirm they are susceptible to bouncing if landing fast. If you know this is a risk and get some good instruction this should not be a problem.

I also had a door pop open in flight on a number of occassions before I learnt how to properly check it was closed. This is not difficult to learn.

The amount of time you need to convert will depend more on the avionics than anything else. It is important to stay ahead of the plane and the more familiar you are with the avionics the safer you will be in my opinion.

I have fond memories of my Cirrus and would go back to it if my mission profile suited.
3VE

A&C has got it right.

Go for it. As the others have said, there is nothing special about a Cirrus except it doesn't like fast landings.

As for "learning the basic skills" and all that, I'd take the potentially radical view that glass cockpits, GPS nav and the magenta line ARE the new basic skills. NDBs, VORs and tons of dials aren't basic, they are just outdated - if you make the choice of flying modern, contemporary aircraft instead of the usual (and much cheaper) avionics museums. That's not to say you shouldn't be able to interpret and fly that half mil (isn't that what the Brits call it?) displayed on your iPad. But you learned that getting the license, I'm pretty sure.

So let the fight begin ;)

Many thanks everyone for the helpful responses.

The 10 hours dual training requirement does feel excessive and may well put off these plans for now due to the expense, not to mention the fact that the last thing I want to do is go through another course of training immediately after getting the PPL. I'll have to see closer to the time.

A and C, my intention would be to practice as much hand flying as possible in addition to keeping my basic dead reckoning navigation skills sharp, but it would also be useful to gain experience with the various automated avionics, GPS etc. Not to mention making the experience more enjoyable. I don't intend to use the error prone dead reckoning method as my primary method after gaining my PPL (whether for private flying or possible commercial work). It would only be to maintain a good spatial awareness as opposed to slavishly relying on the GPS, in addition to redundancy reasons in case all else fails.

With regards to the door problem, even if it would not pose a major direct threat to the safety of the flight it would still be a deal breaker. One of the reasons being the expense of having to divert and land in order to fix the issue, before getting back to the original trip. If it is as regular a problem as it seems to be from various sources then it's probably enough to put me off.

3victorecho and Fuji abound mention that it is possible to avoid by making sure the door is properly latched, but how is this done exactly? However, even then sharpend mentions that it happens even when the door is properly closed?

Other than the Cirrus, are there any other similar SEPs that anyone can reccommend?

You're exactly right about dead reckoning not being the tool for practical every-day flying these days. GPS is.

I'm afraid you took away the wrong impression regarding the doors. It's pretty much a non-issue.

Thorchert is correct the doors are a non issue, I never heard of one opening if properly closed, maybe only if you think it is properly closed. However it is just a technique to get right as part of pre-flight. I personally prefer to close my passengers door from the outside and then get in.

If cost to divert and fix a minor problem is a cost issue then you are right not to choose the Cirrus, for building hours or on a tight budget choose something cheaper for just as much fun.

As a brand new PPL I would be fairly certain it will take you longer than 10 hours before somebody is prepared to rent you their Cirrus so again factor that into your cost decision.

If you fly the cirrus to the numbers in the POH it's a pleasure to fly.

If you try and land too fast or slow it will cause potential problems but if you cross the threshold at V ref it's fine.

I have not enjoyed flying any craft more than the SR 20 I am currently privileged enough to fly and have done just over a 100 hours in it.

It's a pleasure for short hops but is best when you set course for France or somewhere distant. We usually get 145 kts TAS and you can cross long distances comfortably.

It's an absolute joy to fly, but I am quite glad I spent a few years in pa28 and arrows etc so I can now truly appreciate what you can do with cirrus.

And I can can get mrs eb into this craft. In everything else she doesn't think it's up to the job.

my vote for an alternative would be the Diamond DA40

fats

Pace - you cant have it both ways.

Only a few threads ago you were arguing Cirrus pilots needed more training - now its less. ;)

In reality I agree that a competent pilot will do fine with 5 hours, but probably not a newish PPL with no time on faster aircraft and only PA28 experience. That is a reasonable transition both in terms of speed, glass cockpit, chute, a considerably more slippery air frame just to mention a few aspects.

Of course there may be some operations that take advantage, but I have to say I have come across very few. Most do a fair assessment of the pilot and if they cut the mustard the hours are adjusted accordingly. By all means anyone going this route could get the assurance first. Then it does come down to trust. I am not boasting but I did two hours in the Cirrus up front probably even then a little more than necessary as it seemed a pleasant idea to do a few T and Gs in France. However I had lots of glass time (and the now mandatory glass sign off), lots of twin time and a few post PPL hours. As a new PPL with no glass time, I have a feeling 15 hours or so would not have been unreasonable and then dependent on how much time I was prepared to study the avionics before.

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

Based on your feedback, the Cirrus does indeed sound like a suitable airplane. The main barrier at the moment then is just the initial cost of being checked out on one.

As a result, does anyone know of any alternative similar performance aircraft I could fly for my hour building? Preferably one that does not present the same issue as the Cirrus in terms of the training requirements.

I have considered the DA40, but there doesn't seem to be any local groups/clubs/FTOs hiring these out. I have also considered the Arrow, but all the examples I've found are typical school aircraft (falling apart inside, old equipment, none of the glass cockpits I'm looking for experience in etc).

I live in the North-West area, between Liverpool and Manchester. I have looked for information on available aircraft at Barton, Liverpool, Blackpool, Woodvale, and Hawarden. I haven't been able to find any aircraft whatsoever that would suit me at any of the establishments I know of at those fields, and I don't know of any other fields that are near me. It would actually seem the most suitable aircraft at this stage is the Cirrus. Although I am keen to avoid it if I can due to the costs involved in training.

Any ideas? I wouldn't mind flying a slightly lower performance airplane than the Cirrus either, if it gets me out of the costly check outs. Just something a bit more powerful than the PA28 I'm in at the moment.

Thanks!

Odai.

thinking outside the box why not a pipistrel Virus SW, it has the option for a full glass cockpit, 140kt of speed and a 800nm range all on between 3-4 gallons per hour (depending on engine).

it's only a 2 seater but i don't know a cheaper way to build flight hours, base price is about £45k but i would expect that to be more like £80-90k with options.

just a thought.

fats

Am I a Luddite or a realist ?
 

Those of you who think that the magenta line is a basic skill are living in some sort of techno dream world, without the basic skill of DR navigation you should not be let anywhere near an aircraft, as to this situational awareness rubbish, likewise if you can't paint the picture in your head then you should not be flying.

These DR & SA skills are the very fundamentals of piloting and without developing them you are putting your neck in a noose, that noose will tighten very quickly when the screens go blank and you are back to three little round dials to keep the aircraft upright and pointed away from the hills.

Odia If you do your CPL the navigation part is largely DR, the choice is to get with the program now or it will cost you to relearn the skills.

About now I can feel the techno wannabes dismissing me as an old fart who wants the return of the Astro compass & air almanac but I think you need to know why you need the old skills even for aircraft far more sophisticated than the Cirrus & DA40.

A few years back I was relaxing over a cup of tea at FL350 in an A320 an aircraft with a multiple sensor navigation system that makes the Cirrus look like something from the dark ages. The recent graduate from the Magenta kindergarten who was sitting in the right seat decides to try some FMC magic without consulting me, the result of the lighting speed fingers is that he dumps the aircraft position and all the navigation screens go blank!

He then goes into total panic mode, clueless as to what is his next move.

I go down to the flight plan set the HDG in the compass ( yes the one like you have in the Cessna 152) and start the clock ready for the next waypoint, once the aircraft was safely pionted in the right direction I probe for a VOR radial and distance to get an accurate position to get the FMC back on line.

The point I make is that by NOT training and practicing for DR navigation you are trusting your life to bit of kit that will happily fly you into mountain if it fails or you put rubbish into it, the Cirrus & DA40 systems are not reliable enough to trust in the way that the duplicated systems in airliners can be trusted but even those airliner systems are subject to errors both human and technical that is why even today in airliners we also use a paper navigation log that will enable us to get a DR plot running if the screens go black.

Oh I amend this post as I hear that in The Times today they say that humans are getting more stupid because they are letting technology do all the thinking for them, one can only speculate from the some of the posts above if this is true.

I am not sure i should take the bait a and c but you are very wide of the mark.

I actually agree with your comments about basic skills, they are important to have and equally important to be able to fall back on.

However the cirrus has much more redundancy that you realise. There are twin ifr gps, the screens are now independent, capable of each displaying the vital information and driven by independent computers. Then there is the hand held gps in my flight bag that will power up in oh um about 20 seconds and needs only a gps signal. Finally there is atc on box 1 or box 2 or the hand held also in my bag - please sir i have lost everything how about a vector there is a good chap. Dedicated followers of the purple line with a well packed flight back are really very unlikely to ever need to revert to da should they prefer not to.

Fuji

But its crazy to be teaching the displays at £200 per hour flying around that should be on a sim.

Pace

Fuji
 

It only takes the failure of one system to kill three of your navigation systems and yours is a very northern Europe assumption that radar will be avalable to help you.

What the basic skills do is give you the way to stay alive and calmly get a grip of the situation, without these skills panic is likely to take over and the situation spiral out of control............. Oh I guess there is always the chute to fall back on ! And some might that due to lack of basic skills it has already come to this.

The Cirrus is a great aeroplane; if you're loaded.
All the knobs and buttons actually make it more difficult to fly well IMHO but one fact often overlooked is that you'll find passengers much more willing to get in a Cirrus than in a PA28 or the like.
Price is the only reason I no longer fly one.

These DA & SA skills are the very fundamentals of piloting and without developing

Reading skills are pretty important, too. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.

Odai,

Not sure I get it: You want to build hours, yet complain about ten hours of training. Hmm. Seems a great way to build hours and learn something at the same time. If you get bored in hour 5, you can spend the rest flying to neat places.

Thborchert
 

There we go..... I make the point about being overly reliant on automation, only diference is the auto correct on the iPad that auto selects the wrong letters is not going to kill me !

A and C just to reiterate I don't disagree with you and I have made a very European assumption about radar, albeit you would receive an equally good service in the States.

People flying Cirrus are very rarely operating outside this environment and while I dont doubt it is possible to conceive sufficient system failure to compromise the on board navigation with some sensible backups in reality I doubt there would ever be a need to resort to DA.

I am not disputing your comments, just that on a Cirrus the analogy you give with your A320 is unlikely in the extreme and therefore if you happen to be such a dedicated follower of the purple line I dont think you should ever find yourself in this situation.

and yes, if all else fails you could always float down and read the traffic signs. ;)

What is landing too fast if not bad handling skills ?
Too much is made of hot ship singles!
Pilots were soloed in Spirfires at a handful of hours in the last war!
It was possible to do a complete PPL on a twin!
More should be placed on handling skills and displays confined to a simulator firmly on the ground.

Pace

Why?

Why write in an aggressive manner?

Fuji
 

What I said was that you had taken a very Northern European assumption, I compleatly agree with you about the radar cover in Northern Europle and the USA.

The problems come when the newish Cirrus pilot ventures three hours south.

I can't count the number of times when crusing above FL300 I have listened to northern European registered light aircraft trying to contact ATC units, I usually chip in and offer a relay. Nine times out of ten that ATC unit suddenly starts receiving the light aircraft transmission when they know there is no way of avoiding talking to them !

In that environment only a few hours flying away from the UK the pilot has to be much more self reliant and if the worst happens all they have to fall back on is the basic pilotage skills.

Pace :ok:

For those of you that seem to think a Cirrus is a hot ship really need to get in touch with reality, it is a single piston aircraft that is a few knots faster than what you learn't to fly on with a few fancy avionics that are nothing more than glorified Gamin GPS's.

How do you think people convert on to new types with only a single seat? you read the manuals, get briefed by an instructor and use the basic flying skills that you were taught and I am not talking about single piston GA aircraft that are all basically similiar with simple systems.

I would strongly suggest that if you cannot read the flight manual and fly a Cirrus VFR the way you were taught to using basics techniques without having to use the magenta line, then you should go back to the flying school that did your PPL and get your money back.

Get yourself a Taylor Monoplane. Cheap as chips and will keep you on your toes :ok:

About to fly one myself for the first time, 1455 hours and 7 years later than I should have.

h

No the Cirrus is a great choice and one I am hoping to block buy some hours on soon.
We have had many discussions on the aircraft and the chute is a real plus if treated with respect.
The point here is that the aircraft is a fixed gear single! ok its a bit slippery hence more reason to have piloting skills which means nailing the speeds.
The mooney was considered difficult by some! It was also slippery and a challenge to some on landing due to the fact that if the aircraft was fast it floated forever in ground effect.
Hence both aircraft need good handling skills and then they will not be a problem!
The rest ? The Candy needs learning not in the aircraft unless you have money to burn but in the classroom on a sim.
10 hours demanded by some stinks of artificial operator created insurance requirements to generate £2000 of revenue.

Pace

I don't believe I did (but then, this is not my native language). What I did and do believe is that my statement was somewhat provocative. A figure of speech.

Fatmanmedia, unfortunately at this stage purchasing an aircraft (or even a share in one) is out of the question due to cost. :p

A and C, thank you again for taking the time to post your opinions and experiences - much appreciated. However, I did mention in my post that I do intend to keep my dead reckoning skills sharp and use them in conjunction with more modern methods to maintain situational awareness and have something to fall back on in case the proverbial fecal matter hits the fan. Not to mention that I'd need to demonstrate I can still do it when it's time for my CPL training, as you said.

However, I see no sense in not making use of the advanced technology when it is available to you. In fact, I'd say pilots should go to pains to aquire the tech when it isn't already available (for example, taking a handheld GPS when flying in a steam gauge cockpit). Such tech will keep your flying more accurate and therefore safer (less likely to be unsure of position, stray into CAS etc).

No matter how good your dead reckoning skills become, it is still more innaccurate/error prone than something like a GPS.

Sorry, should have made myself clearer. What I'm getting at is that the 10 hours training required by the insurance for the Cirrus will not count towards the solo time requirement for starting commercial training (not PIC time). It would also be at a higher rate (I think +£50 per hour for an instructor).

I'm still trying to find other suitable aircraft to fly in my local area but not having much luck. In addition, I am not sure what the situation is with even the Cirrus. I intended to purchase a no equity share (the only way to make it affordable) from Aircraft Grouping at Blackpool, but considering the criminal charges just made against the owner I don't know if making a long term investment there (in the form of a deposit) is a good idea anymore. It is unfortunate, as, considering the lack of other options, the Cirrus was looking like my best bet despite the pricey initial costs.

Any other ideas? :confused: The main problem here is not finding a model that would suit my requirements, but rather an example of one with availability at an airfield that isn't on the other side of the country to me. :p

Pace - your message box is full up (again) :)

A and C

but if you are a devotee of the purple line that is where a GPS in your flight bag comes in. Sorry to persist but I have never heard of both 430s on a Cirrus and the GPS in the flight bag simultaneously failing. They could, I just don't think its happened yet and not expecting to read a report of it happening any time soon. ;)

Unlike the G1000 the 430s drive the Avidyne displays and the GPSs are not hidden behind the panel - they both function as stand alone instruments. There is no rebooting in flight - you can turn them off and on again and they will establish a position almost instantly just like the moving map in your flight bag for a few hundreds of quid.

Things really have moved on. In the days of a single panel GPS or a hand held reliant on batteries sods law is you would be spot on, but its not like that any more. I dont know if you have flown in a Cirrus but there is a lot more redundancy, duplication and kit than you might imagine. ;)

Risk of slight thread drift here. There was loads of warnings last month during Operation Joint Warrior about GPS jamming. There was even one warning about one 385 mile radius from Kirkwall.

Did anybody lose signal or are the military just crap at it?

D.O.

Fuji
 

I agree about the reliability of the modern GPS receivers, what I was trying to get at is what happens if the GPS satellite system fails or is shut down probably by a criminal act or for military reasons.

It matters not if you have one or ten GPS units if it is the satellite system that is at fault.

Odai

It might be worth considering something outside of your current thinking for hour building. It doesn't matter how fast you're flying - an hour at 80mph is the same as an hour at 140mph... But the cost of an hour is considerably less at 80mph than it is at 140mph, generally.

A share in a simple aeroplane such as a C152 can be around £5000, with monthlies at £80 and hourly rates at around £60ph. When you sell out, if you look after the aeroplane, you get that £5k back.

Being even more "daring", my original member share in a permit aeroplane was£1000, with monthlies at £60 and hourly rates of £40ph. There was no glass cockpit, but I did get to do plenty of cheap and fun flying.

Yes, a Cirrus is very swish and has lots of mod cons and capability, but it's not a poor man's aeroplane. There's plenty of time for you to fly fancy stuff once you've built some inexpensive experience. The additional benefit is that those additional inexpensive hours translate to reduced insurance costs. Think of it a little like the cheap banger we usually get to drive when we first pass our driving test. It might not have electric windows, but it does the job, and you can move onto the shiny stuff in time.

Just a thought, that's all. Enjoy whatever it is that you choose to fly...

Peter

have cleared some :(

Pace