Would you be happy for a loved one flying with a brand new PPL?
 

I have a flying related question - hope that's acceptable looking at some of the more recent threads ;)

Subject says it all really, and I ask the question mainly because a PPL is often referred to as a license to learn - so when has someone in your book learnt enough to fly your dearests around?

Cheers

Vabsie

As soon as the instructor deems the pilot fit to attempt the PPL test and the examiner deems the pilot fit to pass.

Cusco.

Hi,

I would prefer a "fresh" PPL over a Flown-for-20-years-12-hours-a-year-in-the-pattern-Know-it-all... Hands down!

Kind regards,
Peter

It is sometimes said that the examiner during the skills test asks himself "would I be happy if this guy's next flight was with my kids as passengers?"

If so, then pass, if not, then fail.

Any new pilot has an immense amount to learn. Any experienced pilot still has lots to learn, so they're all licenses to learn.

New pilots who use their modest skills to choose the conditions best suited to their skills, are probably fine - in those conditions. Then, as long as the new pilot remembers that for many passengers, simply being off the ground at all is very impressive, so additional efforts to impress (steep turns and zero G) are not necessary, and probably actually counter productive to a fun time, things should go well.

A young fellow I knew decades ago, had the free use of his dad's fleet of a dozen or so various aircraft. So did I, so I really appreciated the privilege. I took care to be a very respectful pilot in those aircraft - he, not so much. When he was 16 (and very skilled, though yet to be fully licensed) he used to "borrow" the Aerobat, and take his girlfriend flying. I caught him once looping and rolling her. The poor girl was scared speechless when they got down (I was waiting). I told him that if I caught him again, I'd have his parents ground him. I caught him again (I was surprised that he got her to go again), and had him grounded. He drove her on dates for a while after that. Oh, by the way, that young fellow is now a national aerobatic champion - I guess he showed me!

Pilots, particularly new ones, think that what they do is impressive. The rest of society, probably would like to think about flying being more safe and enjoyable, than impressive. New pilots will do us all a favour by giving their passengers a ride they really enjoy, and feel is safe. That makes for good impressions, and good will. Aviation needs all it can get of that!

Would I be happy if a loved one would go flying on his/her brand new PPL?

Yes. I'd keep an eye on what and under which conditions, lend a hand as a somewhat more experienced aviator, but by all means a new PPL not only should but must spread her wings in order to get experience. It's difficult to do so if you're not flying.

Once had an interesting case where a wife of a fresh PPL would refuse to fly with him on the grounds that he was "clumsy at home so how should I trust him to fly an airplane safely"... apparently she had agreed to let him have lessons fully expecting he would fail and give up. Well, he's flying with someone else now :ok:

Without reservation - If my loved one has completed her PPL then I would trust her ability to conduct a safe flight, knowing that she has demonstrated her ability and has has shown the neccessary ability to judge if the flight can be conducted safely based on her personal limitations

I think it depends on his instructor. In the UK, too many people get PPLs not knowing some preflight basics. I would want to make sure myself that he/she knows the planning etc. Also, only recently, a student got killed when given an orbit for spacing by ATC, which is totally out of order.

You read of few serious accidents involving low hours pilots and bearing in mind there are more new than old pilots (most of the new pilots give up before they become old pilots) they cant be doing too bad.

There is i think some evidence it takes a few hundred hours before you become really dangerous! Survive those years and you should be ok.

I'd just like the new pilot to have done a few solo hours to get used to flying without an instructor breathing down their necks.

But after that, fine.

G

Hi Peter,

What is so unusal about a student pilot having to make an orbit for ATC seperation? At one place I instructed, that was common place, as was the instruction to take off 33, turn right or left for downwind for the intersecting runway. All of this was of course when calm(ish) and would often use any of the 4 runway directions at the airport to help integrate the training aircraft into busy commercial traffic using the main runway. In addition to that prior to first solo the student had to be taught how to navigate to another airport and do a non radio join and landing. Just in case they had a radio faliure while solo and needed to leave the control zone, which was standard procedure in the event of a radio faliure.

Genghis - most of my students had done 15 to 20 hours solo by the end of the PPL, some of it just as time to get to the minimum hours for their ppl application. It was not uncommon to send a student off to do a couple of hours out of the control zone to the south just to build hours / experience.

But you were still there overseeing their flying. In my opinion it's useful just to get them away from the instructor's umbrella a little.

I thought Peter's point was not about being asked to orbit for separation, but losing control and crashing in the doing so.

G

Towards the end of their PPL the degree of instructor interaction would have diminished to "go and do a couple of hours to the south" and a signature to authorise the flight. If they needed any greater brief then they were not ready!!

Equally if a student could not safely complete an orbit on a solo circuit then they should not have been cleared to go solo.

When I was a student I trained at a field where orbits for separation for students were practiced and a useful technique. I also recently flew somewhere where a student decided to do an orbit of their own decision, unfortunately at about 600ft on final ! The ATCO dealt with it very well but it wasn't just the traffic confliction, I did think it was more of a stall/spin potential problem. If students are well trained and know the limitations then arguably its better to know how and when to do this type of thing than guessing. I wish someone had given me the opportunity to depart a runway and make the remainder of a circuit to an intersecting runway more often, it would have been a good confidence booster I think.

My recollection of being a student is that I nonetheless use the instructor's signature as something of a "am I really safe to go" backstop. A few unsupervised solo hours got that out of my system.

G

Custardpsc

I agree - a great confidence builder for the student, it also stopped them flying the circuit by rote!! they had to adapt the flying circuit dependent on which runway direction they were given. It was a high workload for the student and resulted in first solo times that were on average 8 - 10 hours later than students at a quiet airfield. However it did give them an ability to rapidly adapt to changes in the circuit.

Must admit as a new pilot I've never had anyone worrying about flying/having a loved one flying with me. I've even cured my daughter's phobia of flying. But then I'm a belt and braces type of guy, never use more than ten degrees of bank (and surprisingly you don't have to) when flying pax unless essential. Have you ever driven home with a pint of milk in the footwell of the car? You know how careful you have to be to stop it falling over, I always think of non aviator pax as pints of milk in the footwell. Every single person I've flown has always wanted another flight. Not down to my piloting skills I'm sure, it's just treating them like eggs and being thorough with everything.

Thing

Spot on attitude!! In my experience the person who tries to impress their friends and family by silly deeds is the least impressive. All it serves is to bolster the ego of the pilot rather than demonstrate skill and consideration

Its not the brand news you need to worry about.

Its when they are about 100 hours or a year after they have passed that they are more likely to have an incident.

Everything is fresh in their heads and still feel slightly under confident. After that they need to scare themselves a few times and then they settle down again.

Confession: I dont understand the phrase 'orbit to an intersecting runway'. It's not something I have come across. Could someone clarify. Thanks

Charlie Delta

in some places you may fly an instrument approach to one runway and break off that approach to land on another runway.

You may also do what the FAA call a Circle to land off an ILS where the winds favour the other end of the runway.

As far a the PPL flying VFR ATC may decide to change runways and could offer you the chance of doing a circle from your presnt position onto the new runway.

I think that was what he was talking about when he said orbit.

It is really about spatial awareness and being able to have a good mental picture of where you are and where you want to be.
In that sense its good practice to chop approaches around a bit so that you do not fixate on one circuit pattern.

Pace

I think in the context of this thread the expression orbit refers to a 360 degree rate 1 turn from your current position in the circuit (in the direction stated by ATC) at a constant height until advised to continue in the circuit by ATC.

The reference to intersecting runways can best be described by following the example of ATC instructions (its only for VFR circuit work).Not only has the runway changed but also the circuit direction, which was common practice at Birmingham Airport for VFR GA circuit Training on locally based aircraft on a calm day in the late 80's. At the time there were four training organisations based at Birmingham airport with approximatly 15 aircraft resident for training

GEP

I agree with what you are saying re an orbit! Orbit in your present position makes sense to maybe let IFR traffic land and gain spacing but orbit TO an intersecting runway would be very odd ;)
Circle to an intersecting runway would make better sense.

Pace

I dont think I mentioned orbit to an intersecting runway??? To me the next runway direction and circuit may change after a touch and go, but not through an orbit to change runway direction or circuit direction.

For ease - this is BXH back then

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/...54/BHX1999.jpg

You didn't ; ) He did !! Ie the author of the question

Pace

Answer for original question; It depends on who the instructor was and who the examiner was. Some are more "thorough" than others.

CDU - two separate things here but related by the same point about being useful but students not always taught/get to do them. Orbiting for separation - "charlie delta make/request one right orbit present position" and repositioning for another runway = departing from say rw 31 and immediately being on right base for rw 18 or right downwind for rw 27 say.

As mentioned the positioning for adjacent rw is a useful thing and it does bring the confidence/ability that rote flying the circuit doesn't give. It also does make one ready to deal with runway changes on the fly as required without unduly increasing workload

Orbits are imho slightly more contentious - sometimes necessary when requested by controller, sometimes a good idea when requested by pilot, but never great when someone decides to do an unannounced one on finals. Also low and slowish and I can imagine the tendency to try and keep the turn tight and there is a stall/spin brewing ... The USA seems fonder of them than the UK. Hope this clarifies

I guess this is thread drift but I hope you won't mind continuing my education...

If you depart on 33 and turn right, won't you be going upwind on the deadside of 24?

So, assuming 24 is a left-hnd circuit, would you climb, turn leftso you are now late downwind for runway 33?

I think this is persuading me that I don't yet have the experience/practice to do the mental gymnastics required. So, if this was me in receipt of such instructions, I guess the safest course of action is to 'fess up to ATC about not understanding and suggest that you depart the circuit and re-position from outside the circuit once you have got sorted out.

I haven't done anything like this, which perhaps confirms what one of the posters was saying about it being good experience. Is this a shortcomning in a new PPL? If so, I'll do something about it before I cause any grief for real.

Not really, your solution is more than sensible.

In fact quite alot of highly experenced pilots would do the same thing after getting scared ****less trying to help out ATC and getting their bums well and truely burned in the past.

One of those ones where experence and cunning means not having to use advanced handling skills to sort a problem out.

I see our local schools regularly circling to position on a different runway. It is a three runway field. Last weekend it was being done through necessity as the wind was periodically swinging 90 degrees. Good practice!

If confused, or the circuit is getting congested, clearing the circuit is absolutely the correct thing to do.

Orbiting at a controlled field is OK but a no no at an uncontrolled field as you could be orbiting into the path the following aircraft.

Back to the origional post I would say usually yes but I would want to know the pilot reasonably well and make my judgement based on personality.

D.O.

After marrying my instructor's daughter, I know that I wont be allowed to get my licence until he's confident that I'm safe! :8

If your future father-in-law sends you solo in a gale after 6 hours, that might tell you something!

Your wedding speeches are going to be good.

No - if your father in law sends you solo in 6 hours in a gale he's giving you a small chance. If he sends you solo after 20 hours with a 200 foot cloudbase and a 600m RVR then he hates you!! And he's sadistic to boot.

With regards the situation at Birmingham in the late eighties, there was never a "deadside" Joins were always by ATC instruction and NEVER an overhead join. The circuit direction was not fixed and was dependent on the traffic and the conditions. It could change several times in one session. Students learnt to be flexible and think on their feet, hence why it took longer than average to get them solo.

With respect to an orbit done low - the only time that is likely would be on finals at an uncontrolled field and that is stupidity. If you can't maintain seperation then a missed approach and back into another circuit is the correct thing to do. A Low, slow orbit in approach configuration is asking for an early appointment with the grim reaper.

At a controlled airfield the only leg a controller will ask to an orbit is on the down wind leg, he will have already planned the VFR approaches to slot in with the IFR and/or heavy traffic (for wake seperation) if he has an emergency and your on base or finals he will tell you to go around or go away!! If your on base leg and in a typical club aircraft you will be having a good look at where the heavy touchs down before you and be aiming to land past his touch down point to keep above any residual wake turbulance.

ffs, why would you assume that?

Turns are always made in circuit direction.

Nope I have had one that told a first solo to do that at 300ft agl on final.

MJ, that warrents reporting!!

Controllers do make mistakes, they are human, however when they place someone at risk then that is unacceptable. I trust you had words! Especially as the instructor will have spoken to ATC and advised that it was a first solo.

It's almost as bad as IFR traffic being told to maintain visual seperation with the VFR circuit traffic

Seeing people orbit on the downwind leg gives me the jitters! ATC instruction or not!

As for flying with new PPL's...well why not! They've proven to an examiner that they are safe and competent. I do think that they may need a close eye kept on them if possible, but this isn't always the case. You could compare it to a new driver passing a driving test. I'd prefer someone to fly with a new PPL then a new driver any day!

And I can't agree more with some of the posts about students/new PPL's being given a bit of breathing space. I can remember doing an hour of circuit bashing, both instructor and me getting more frustrated with my lack of landing finesse...and then him getting out and telling me to go and sort it on my own! It worked 100% and not having the stress of him watching my every move was a key factor!

IFR traffic once you accept a visual only has to be passed traffic. And when your talking to tower its the same. Its pilots not knowing the rules which creates the problems. Your on your tod once your start speaking to twr.

I had told the twr that they were first solo and I did speak to the SATCO afterwards who came over and apologised to the student. Although to be honest that particular student was a gliding conversion so if it had to be anyone I was glad it was him.

I was assuming a left hand circuitwith all turns to the left. Nobody mentioned a right hand circuit. So, climbing out on 24 and then turning left would surely put you roughly parallel with 33 (which will then be on your left) and going more or less downwind. Happy to be told the error of my ways so I can understand the 'FFS' preamble to your reply.