Would you be happy for a loved one flying with a brand new PPL?
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Would you be happy for a loved one flying with a brand new PPL?
I have a flying related question - hope that's acceptable looking at some of the more recent threads 
Subject says it all really, and I ask the question mainly because a PPL is often referred to as a license to learn - so when has someone in your book learnt enough to fly your dearests around?
Cheers
Vabsie
Subject says it all really, and I ask the question mainly because a PPL is often referred to as a license to learn - so when has someone in your book learnt enough to fly your dearests around?
Cheers
Vabsie
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It is sometimes said that the examiner during the skills test asks himself "would I be happy if this guy's next flight was with my kids as passengers?"
If so, then pass, if not, then fail.
If so, then pass, if not, then fail.
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Any new pilot has an immense amount to learn. Any experienced pilot still has lots to learn, so they're all licenses to learn.
New pilots who use their modest skills to choose the conditions best suited to their skills, are probably fine - in those conditions. Then, as long as the new pilot remembers that for many passengers, simply being off the ground at all is very impressive, so additional efforts to impress (steep turns and zero G) are not necessary, and probably actually counter productive to a fun time, things should go well.
A young fellow I knew decades ago, had the free use of his dad's fleet of a dozen or so various aircraft. So did I, so I really appreciated the privilege. I took care to be a very respectful pilot in those aircraft - he, not so much. When he was 16 (and very skilled, though yet to be fully licensed) he used to "borrow" the Aerobat, and take his girlfriend flying. I caught him once looping and rolling her. The poor girl was scared speechless when they got down (I was waiting). I told him that if I caught him again, I'd have his parents ground him. I caught him again (I was surprised that he got her to go again), and had him grounded. He drove her on dates for a while after that. Oh, by the way, that young fellow is now a national aerobatic champion - I guess he showed me!
Pilots, particularly new ones, think that what they do is impressive. The rest of society, probably would like to think about flying being more safe and enjoyable, than impressive. New pilots will do us all a favour by giving their passengers a ride they really enjoy, and feel is safe. That makes for good impressions, and good will. Aviation needs all it can get of that!
New pilots who use their modest skills to choose the conditions best suited to their skills, are probably fine - in those conditions. Then, as long as the new pilot remembers that for many passengers, simply being off the ground at all is very impressive, so additional efforts to impress (steep turns and zero G) are not necessary, and probably actually counter productive to a fun time, things should go well.
A young fellow I knew decades ago, had the free use of his dad's fleet of a dozen or so various aircraft. So did I, so I really appreciated the privilege. I took care to be a very respectful pilot in those aircraft - he, not so much. When he was 16 (and very skilled, though yet to be fully licensed) he used to "borrow" the Aerobat, and take his girlfriend flying. I caught him once looping and rolling her. The poor girl was scared speechless when they got down (I was waiting). I told him that if I caught him again, I'd have his parents ground him. I caught him again (I was surprised that he got her to go again), and had him grounded. He drove her on dates for a while after that. Oh, by the way, that young fellow is now a national aerobatic champion - I guess he showed me!
Pilots, particularly new ones, think that what they do is impressive. The rest of society, probably would like to think about flying being more safe and enjoyable, than impressive. New pilots will do us all a favour by giving their passengers a ride they really enjoy, and feel is safe. That makes for good impressions, and good will. Aviation needs all it can get of that!
Would I be happy if a loved one would go flying on his/her brand new PPL?
Yes. I'd keep an eye on what and under which conditions, lend a hand as a somewhat more experienced aviator, but by all means a new PPL not only should but must spread her wings in order to get experience. It's difficult to do so if you're not flying.
Once had an interesting case where a wife of a fresh PPL would refuse to fly with him on the grounds that he was "clumsy at home so how should I trust him to fly an airplane safely"... apparently she had agreed to let him have lessons fully expecting he would fail and give up. Well, he's flying with someone else now
Yes. I'd keep an eye on what and under which conditions, lend a hand as a somewhat more experienced aviator, but by all means a new PPL not only should but must spread her wings in order to get experience. It's difficult to do so if you're not flying.
Once had an interesting case where a wife of a fresh PPL would refuse to fly with him on the grounds that he was "clumsy at home so how should I trust him to fly an airplane safely"... apparently she had agreed to let him have lessons fully expecting he would fail and give up. Well, he's flying with someone else now
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Without reservation - If my loved one has completed her PPL then I would trust her ability to conduct a safe flight, knowing that she has demonstrated her ability and has has shown the neccessary ability to judge if the flight can be conducted safely based on her personal limitations
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I think it depends on his instructor. In the UK, too many people get PPLs not knowing some preflight basics. I would want to make sure myself that he/she knows the planning etc. Also, only recently, a student got killed when given an orbit for spacing by ATC, which is totally out of order.
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You read of few serious accidents involving low hours pilots and bearing in mind there are more new than old pilots (most of the new pilots give up before they become old pilots) they cant be doing too bad.
There is i think some evidence it takes a few hundred hours before you become really dangerous! Survive those years and you should be ok.
There is i think some evidence it takes a few hundred hours before you become really dangerous! Survive those years and you should be ok.
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Hi Peter,
What is so unusal about a student pilot having to make an orbit for ATC seperation? At one place I instructed, that was common place, as was the instruction to take off 33, turn right or left for downwind for the intersecting runway. All of this was of course when calm(ish) and would often use any of the 4 runway directions at the airport to help integrate the training aircraft into busy commercial traffic using the main runway. In addition to that prior to first solo the student had to be taught how to navigate to another airport and do a non radio join and landing. Just in case they had a radio faliure while solo and needed to leave the control zone, which was standard procedure in the event of a radio faliure.
Genghis - most of my students had done 15 to 20 hours solo by the end of the PPL, some of it just as time to get to the minimum hours for their ppl application. It was not uncommon to send a student off to do a couple of hours out of the control zone to the south just to build hours / experience.
What is so unusal about a student pilot having to make an orbit for ATC seperation? At one place I instructed, that was common place, as was the instruction to take off 33, turn right or left for downwind for the intersecting runway. All of this was of course when calm(ish) and would often use any of the 4 runway directions at the airport to help integrate the training aircraft into busy commercial traffic using the main runway. In addition to that prior to first solo the student had to be taught how to navigate to another airport and do a non radio join and landing. Just in case they had a radio faliure while solo and needed to leave the control zone, which was standard procedure in the event of a radio faliure.
Genghis - most of my students had done 15 to 20 hours solo by the end of the PPL, some of it just as time to get to the minimum hours for their ppl application. It was not uncommon to send a student off to do a couple of hours out of the control zone to the south just to build hours / experience.
But you were still there overseeing their flying. In my opinion it's useful just to get them away from the instructor's umbrella a little.
I thought Peter's point was not about being asked to orbit for separation, but losing control and crashing in the doing so.
G
I thought Peter's point was not about being asked to orbit for separation, but losing control and crashing in the doing so.
G
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Towards the end of their PPL the degree of instructor interaction would have diminished to "go and do a couple of hours to the south" and a signature to authorise the flight. If they needed any greater brief then they were not ready!!
Equally if a student could not safely complete an orbit on a solo circuit then they should not have been cleared to go solo.
Equally if a student could not safely complete an orbit on a solo circuit then they should not have been cleared to go solo.
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When I was a student I trained at a field where orbits for separation for students were practiced and a useful technique. I also recently flew somewhere where a student decided to do an orbit of their own decision, unfortunately at about 600ft on final ! The ATCO dealt with it very well but it wasn't just the traffic confliction, I did think it was more of a stall/spin potential problem. If students are well trained and know the limitations then arguably its better to know how and when to do this type of thing than guessing. I wish someone had given me the opportunity to depart a runway and make the remainder of a circuit to an intersecting runway more often, it would have been a good confidence booster I think.
In my opinion it's useful just to get them away from the instructor's umbrella a little.
a signature to authorise the flight
G
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Custardpsc
I agree - a great confidence builder for the student, it also stopped them flying the circuit by rote!! they had to adapt the flying circuit dependent on which runway direction they were given. It was a high workload for the student and resulted in first solo times that were on average 8 - 10 hours later than students at a quiet airfield. However it did give them an ability to rapidly adapt to changes in the circuit.
I agree - a great confidence builder for the student, it also stopped them flying the circuit by rote!! they had to adapt the flying circuit dependent on which runway direction they were given. It was a high workload for the student and resulted in first solo times that were on average 8 - 10 hours later than students at a quiet airfield. However it did give them an ability to rapidly adapt to changes in the circuit.
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Must admit as a new pilot I've never had anyone worrying about flying/having a loved one flying with me. I've even cured my daughter's phobia of flying. But then I'm a belt and braces type of guy, never use more than ten degrees of bank (and surprisingly you don't have to) when flying pax unless essential. Have you ever driven home with a pint of milk in the footwell of the car? You know how careful you have to be to stop it falling over, I always think of non aviator pax as pints of milk in the footwell. Every single person I've flown has always wanted another flight. Not down to my piloting skills I'm sure, it's just treating them like eggs and being thorough with everything.
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Thing
Spot on attitude!! In my experience the person who tries to impress their friends and family by silly deeds is the least impressive. All it serves is to bolster the ego of the pilot rather than demonstrate skill and consideration
Spot on attitude!! In my experience the person who tries to impress their friends and family by silly deeds is the least impressive. All it serves is to bolster the ego of the pilot rather than demonstrate skill and consideration
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Its not the brand news you need to worry about.
Its when they are about 100 hours or a year after they have passed that they are more likely to have an incident.
Everything is fresh in their heads and still feel slightly under confident. After that they need to scare themselves a few times and then they settle down again.
Its when they are about 100 hours or a year after they have passed that they are more likely to have an incident.
Everything is fresh in their heads and still feel slightly under confident. After that they need to scare themselves a few times and then they settle down again.