Would you ever risk someone else's life?
 

to save your own?

Hi All ..

I know this sounds very selfish - and this may be a weird question (sorry if it is).

Here is the hypothetical scenario:

You fly a Cessna 152 or similar (so fixed gear). You are about 700ft when your engine quits. There is a small area of beach below you just about big enough to make a successful landing if carried out properly. The problem is the beach and shallow water have a few people present - not many, but let's say if you attempt a beach landing there could be a 1% or less chance of you hitting someone.

The rest of the terrain that is within gliding distance is very hilly with lots of buildings so not really an option.

To me .. A beach landing would have a better chance of survival than ditching in the sea (deep water where there is nobody), but would not be worth it if I ended up killing someone or chop a child's arm off - so it would have to be ditching.

What do you think?

Vabsie

That's a question every pilot should consider BEFORE flying at such a place at such an altitude.

So you've got hills and offices all around, and a stretch of beach in the middle. Are the people in the water or on the beach - if they're in the water they've got less chance of hearing you and you've got less chance of seeing them.:confused:

If there's that few of them on the beach, you should be able to miss them. If there's that many of them, they should see you coming and clear a perfect path just like all the Hollywood stunt men and women do!:ugh:

How exactly are you going to sacrifice one life to save another. If you mean sacrifice one beach goer to save yours, you've miss judged it. You won't miss them and kill yourself, you'll probably just die trying, and still wipe them out.:{

Jan ..True, and I can probably imagine the best answer. Thanks

But the question remains as I have seen a few pilots who have probably not considered this question and have taken the decision to trust their engine for another 5 minutes while going to "check something out" quickly.

Vabsie

Actually - if you've done it - before landing up a hill is pretty easy. In many cases landing on an uphill slope is likely to be the most survivable option.

The 'ground roll' is very short - done well you can literally 'spot' the aircraft.

As for hazarding some poor sap who is minding his own business - no way. Landing in shallow water or close to shore is highly unlikely to do anything but get you wet.

From personal experience the one thing you cannot count on is people on the ground understanding that moving out of the way is the correct course of action......

Obi Wan ..

You have a few people swimming in the shallow water and a few on the beach.

So as I see it your options are either attempt a landing on the beach (small chance of risking someone's life) or ditch in the deeper water where there is nobody.

Why the crying?:}

Vabsie

You can create all sorts of scenarios, but personally I think the answer is always the same.

The only life you have a right to risk is your own.

An aeroplane can get written off, and most of us can swim. If you can't, either learn, accept the risk, or don't fly over water.

That said a tiny risk of hitting somebody on a quiet beach, when I can steer the aeroplane until it's stopped, it acceptable. I'm simply trusting to my own skill. That I do every time I fly.

G

Gengis .. Thanks for your answer.

I realise it's a very hypothetical scenario. Your answer however is exactly why I'm asking the question.

I think you are almost saying that you would be OK with a beach landing if the risk of hitting someone is very small because you will trust your own skill.

Based on your advice of only having the right to risk your own life, should ditching in deeper water not always be the default regardless of your skill level to ensure that the risk to others is zero?

Vabsie

Vabsie,

The crying was because you assumed you were able to save others by taking some extreme measure to land the aircraft and have to sacrifice your life, and probably wipe them out anyway.

As Genghis said "The only life you have a right to risk is your own. An aeroplane can get written off, and most of us can swim. If you can't, either learn, accept the risk, or don't fly over water."

Unless you can use The Force :ok:

But risk is technically never zero is it. There are people somewhere near the runway almost every time I fly. A beach shifts responsibility for avoidance more onto me, but it's always there anyhow.

G

Obi Wan - I think you misunderstood, but I should have been clearer.

The only "extreme" measure I was considering was landing in deep water with the hope to save those on the beach or those in shallow water.

All good though.

Vabsie

Edited my post to state I'm referring to deep water as an alternative landing. Not the shallow water where people are swimming.

Risk somebody else's life to save your own..
 

I think that's what every stduent does when they fly with an instructor:}
I met a commercial pilot who moved to airlines after instructing and said he was fed up with flying with people who seemed determined to kill him.

Still, I suppose they consent to take the risk.

Thats an interesting scenario, I've done most ofmy training flight down in Miami and would always fly up to Fort Pierce on cross country flights . Midway along the route ATC would give us an option to either fly at /above 2500 ft or below 1000 ft . A lot of the guys would descend down to 500 ft just to get the thrill of being so close over the water and of course South Beach and all that jazz. Personally for me I always chose the higher altitude incase the engine just quit , constantly reminding myself of a plan of action if Lady Luck decided to part ways.The answer to this really depends on how populated the beach/water is the basic idea would be to steer clear of as many people possible before making the landing. As an afterthought ditching somewhere in the deep would be another option if I could swim to save my life , else I'd be worried about sand in my eyes.

cheers !

Not hypothetical I'm afraid...

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...RW%2008-06.pdf

Been there, seen it, done it.:(

I would say most pilots would never be thinking in terms of 10% risk of killing someone, 20% risk, etc. you just can't calculate precise probabilities like that. You would simply think; is there a risk of hitting someone if I land on the beach? If yes, then put down somewhere else.

There is a risk to others every time you set foot in a car !
Really it's something you would need to assess if it ever happened.
If I had selected the only field available and getting closer realised that field was full of kids playing I would turn towards a less suitable landing site even if it added risk to myself.
You have to live with the consequences after!
If I determined the chances of hitting someone was as you said 1% (negligable) I would use my skills, landing spot, direction etc to avoid the person even if by doing so I shortened my landing distance available!
A fairly populated beach and I would put down 100 metres off shore!
We have a responsibility to those on the ground and if I knowingly killed a kid to save my own bacon that would be hard to chew!
It's a judgement you would have to take given what was in front of you on the day !

Pace

There's no such thing as an absolute. If you fly at night, have an engine failure, and aim for the middle of a black area you may still end up flying into somebody in their bed. If you're flying straight and level at 2000 feet over somebody out for a walk, you may have a first cardiac event and plow directly into them with no control. Both scenarios are unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

In a hang-glider or paraglider, they say that you should consider a ditching to be unsurvivable and I suspect the same might be true for some fixed wing aircraft and flexwings. That said, in the scenario you describe the aircraft is worthless and I would risk first of all the aircraft, then secondly my own life, to avoid killing or hurting other people. That might include crashing the nosewheel into the beach (i.e. aircraft stop faster without a nosewheel) in order to attain a shorter ground roll.

I've often wondered what a 'fly on the wall' landing would be like in a 152. One for the simulator tonight, I think.

Nonsense. I survived a ditching in a hang-glider, but nearly died of embarrassment. You can't blame it on engine failure.

Well, I'm glad.

There certainly have been a lot of fatalities related to ditching though. Cold water shock; wires everywhere; heavy boots etc... My instructor used to compete in the birdman competitions and his view was that the uninitiated would be lucky to make it out.

I can't find the statistics at present, but I do remember reading in a BHPA magazine that drowning was the largest single mode of death in fatal hang-gliding accidents.

In the paraglider context that cannot be true. My neighbours attended an 'extreme' paragliding course. Intention canopy collapses, spinning etc. All done over the sea on the basis that many fewer injuries occured....

ABDG

I understand your argument re night flight and what would be an accident out of your control ! That's a different matter.
To take to a field with a number of kids and a reasonable chance of hitting one is in your control!
It's a risk you would make a desicion on to save yourself.
That is very different to loosing an engine at night and hitting a house or people on the ground who you did nor know were there. That is an accident out if your control.

Pace

If you go on one of these courses there are support boats on hand to fish you out pronto. It could be that paragliders are safer, in that you may benefit from wearing a buoyancy aid. In a hang-glider you would risk getting stuck under the wing. However, it's a very different situation from an unplanned ditching.

The other difference here is that during paraglider aerobatics, one of the risks is of the canopy collapsing into a bag of washing. It's the paraglider equivalent of a stall-spin accident whilst turning final. It doesn't really compare with your average forced landing in a tree scenario.

If you crash a glider on land, it's common to survive fairly serious injuries including being knocked unconscious; multiple broken limbs etc.... If you crash in the water something simple like a stuck harness strap or being winded can prove fatal.

I suspect there are a lot of unreported incidents of gliders ditching, as they're likely to be the sort of accidents where you either die or survive without injury. However, it's not a risk to be trifled with.

The night flying accident is within your control - simply don't fly at night.

The difference is partly one of the degree of risk, which we class as acceptably low. Also, you choose to subject other people to the risk on takeoff (when everything seems normal) rather than later on in the emergency situation when I agree that it's out of your control.

A number of years ago 120 Sqdn at RAF Kinloss ran a weekend survival course for civilian pilots, mainly aimed at PPLs. Their view was that unless fully-prepared in goon-suit, LSJ, locator etc, then ditching was a last resort. Crash on land rather than ditch was the suggestion. It was in their view a matter of water survival rather than the mechanics of surviving the forced landing on water

Although the edge of a beach is an interesting mid-ground. Most swimmers don't go into water more than about 6ft deep, and many beaches are deserted.

G

abgd, could you possibly, to avoid misunderstanding, reword your statement: that says, "If you crash a glider on land, it's common to survive fairly serious injuries...." o dear. seems to imply it's common to have serious injuries!"

How about, "when doing a field landing in a glider, it is rare to either damange the glider or yourself!"

BUT. I will share with you a famous water landing made in December, in Wales. Gets dark pretty quick in December, and the glider had not returned from soaring the Black Mountains. All at the club were concerned, sent out the tow plane to search, no luck. Thinking perhaps there has been a fatality....

Fairly dark, about 9 or 10 that evening, the phone rang. The pilot said I'm OK, but there is probably damage to the glider.....I'm at a farmhouse, and the farmer will give me a lift back to the club.

Next day, they hitched up the K18 trailer to a Landrover, and set out off over the hills, and on the other side, there was the Reservoir, and there, undulating in the water, was the glider......

The pilot said later that he couldn't get back over the mountain, so had a choice between a tree landing or a water landing, so chose the reservoir. Then he had a choice betwen the shallow end, or the deep end, so he landed at the shallow end, unlatching his canopy as he touched down. However, the canopy burst open, the water flooded in and SANK the glider, and the pilot was underwater, held down by his straps! which he did manage to undo, and also his parachute straps, and waded to the shore, and through the snow to the only light he could find, the farmhouse.

They managed to fish out the glider, floppy wings and all (the glue had melted overnight) and take it back to the club, and a year or so later it was rebuilt.
The pilot (this was his third unfortunate landing, he had written off two other club gliders elsewhere) then bought his own private glider, which never came to grief. The pilot did well to enjoy hia exciting life, for he passed away a few years later from natural causes.....

So to return to the original question: crowded beach? same ethical problem, you wouldn't land in a school playground either. So ditch in the water; if it is too cold to survive the ditching, there won't be a lot of people in the water anyhow, so close to shore should improve your chances.

In a C152 with the engine out I think anyone on the ground will be able to get out of the way by walking at a fairly leisurely pace in more or less any direction. ;)

How many times have we all picked a field for a PFL only to discover that when we're closer there are sheep or cows in it? You wouldn't pick the sea over the field. If the cows or sheep were a few people walking a dog does that change anything? Obviously you're going to try not to hit them, and they'll be busy trying not to get hit! I think you'd find it harder to hit one of them on purpose than not hit any of them at all.

I'd rather do that too!

Mary, perhaps I could have made it clearer, but I was talking about hang gliders and paragliders in my earlier posts. Both of these can land in places that even your gliders would fear to tread, but pilots of both of them are occasionally forced to crash land on unsuitable terrain.

Anyway, I feel shy that I have probably led the thread astray somewhat. Ideally, we all want to save our own skin whilst not injuring anybody else either. Foot-launch aircraft are obviously very different from class A aircraft, and I just wanted to point out that ditching is actually a big decision, and perhaps provoke some further discussion of the subject.

Perhaps a good ploy for this scenario would be to fly along the water's edge and turn out to sea if, as you get closer, the beach turns out to be more crowded than it initially appeared.

When landing a floatplane in the US, the rule is that anything and anyone on or in the water has the right of way, because they don't understand your requirements; this implies no emergency, like nil engine; but just as you can't rely on a sheep not to jump up when your glider floats overhead, you couldn't rely on children to get out of your way when landing on a crowded beach. Golf course should be OK though.....

ABDG

That would be good situational awareness and a mind that is always ahead of the game and adjusting the aircraft accordingly.
I would hazard a guess that some would not even be aware of the cows or kids in the playground and would land regardless frozen on their target landing spot?

Pace

In a real engine out scenario I would be surprised if that didn't include everyone to some extent. I'd be surprised if everyone managed to land on their target as well.

So would I :{ hence why you bring up a good point! Never be fixated on one possible landing point but always keep alternate options open and be aware of those.
Again its called spatial awareness and keeping ahead of the game.
The Sea is a pretty big landing point anyway and might be a better option than a 400 metre stretch of beach :E
No I do not think all pilots are spatially aware or ahead of the game!!! Some are more than others.

Pace

Go for the water:

Plane kills jogger in S.C. beach emergency landing - USATODAY.com

ADM = Aeronautical decision making, you made the decision to fly there you deal with it........

A non question IMHO. Head for any space void of people, even if it means breaking the aeroplane and hurting yourself.

Obvious - spiral down inland, trim at minimum descent glide speed steer out to sea crossing the coast at about 20 feet, once coasting out exit aircraft, half pike dive into sea (by now over suitable depth) and swim to shore. Can't see what the issue is.
:ok:

I don't recall hearing about this. I've been flying from Inverness since 1987.
I always wear a lifejacket, but my only non wet suit experience in winter was dinghy sailing in the 60s and canoeing till the mid 80s. The effect of being in cold water, wearing warm "ordinary" clothing, varies very much from person to person. I'm optimistic.

After a loud explosion from the single engined Cessna woke up my sole passenger, I tried to gain additional height and continue flight to my refuelling destination (the closest airstrip around but still another 20 minutes of flying away!) while flying pretty well parallel to the highway below. While “cruising”, I considered my emergency landing options, and the thought of landing besides the highway on the rough, sandy & scrubby terrain didn’t appeal very much, especially considering there was a stretch of bitumen all the way to the airport. I asked Flight Service if I could land on the highway if I had to. There was a pause, but they answered “yes”! I’ll bet a lot of you don’t believe that, but this was in Outback Australia a long time ago.

Now, if I HAD to have landed before getting to my airport, then I would’ve tried to land on the highway in between cars and trucks. In those daze, there wasn’t a lot of traffic on Outback roads! If that wasn’t possible then I would’ve landed besides the highway. And possibly, no, probably have flipped the thing.

BTW, I arrived at my destination a good 4,000’ above the aerodrome. I wasn’t giving away ANY of my height away until I was absolutely positively sure I could circle around and glide if the prop blades stopped suddenly. As it turned out, the head of a cylinder blew off, held on by one bolt, fuel line and spark plug lead, looking like a can with the lid only partially opened.

Earlier, Pace said:

I agree with this (and the other similar sentiments). I would risk myself over someone on the ground. But what if you had three passengers in the aircraft with you? You have a responsibility to those passengers too. Is it ever acceptable to put someone on the ground in jeopardy in order to minimise risk to your passengers? Or do you fully explain to your passengers the risks involved before they enter the aircraft, including that in the event of an emergency you would put them in jeopardy in order to avoid harm to someone on the ground?

Not trying to be controversial...just found this a thought provoking thread.

/

A good point... Also, people trying to swim to the rescue sometimes drown.

Most beaches I can think of in the UK are empty enough that I would aim to get the aircraft down on the beach rather than in the water.

At my local beach, I know the aircraft would sink in and it could well be impossible to get it moved to safety before the tide came in, so 'saving the plane' really would be a secondary issue. I'm also aware that swimming there is quasi-suicidal at the best of times due to complicated currents.