Would you ever risk someone else's life?
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Would you ever risk someone else's life?
to save your own?
Hi All ..
I know this sounds very selfish - and this may be a weird question (sorry if it is).
Here is the hypothetical scenario:
You fly a Cessna 152 or similar (so fixed gear). You are about 700ft when your engine quits. There is a small area of beach below you just about big enough to make a successful landing if carried out properly. The problem is the beach and shallow water have a few people present - not many, but let's say if you attempt a beach landing there could be a 1% or less chance of you hitting someone.
The rest of the terrain that is within gliding distance is very hilly with lots of buildings so not really an option.
To me .. A beach landing would have a better chance of survival than ditching in the sea (deep water where there is nobody), but would not be worth it if I ended up killing someone or chop a child's arm off - so it would have to be ditching.
What do you think?
Vabsie
Hi All ..
I know this sounds very selfish - and this may be a weird question (sorry if it is).
Here is the hypothetical scenario:
You fly a Cessna 152 or similar (so fixed gear). You are about 700ft when your engine quits. There is a small area of beach below you just about big enough to make a successful landing if carried out properly. The problem is the beach and shallow water have a few people present - not many, but let's say if you attempt a beach landing there could be a 1% or less chance of you hitting someone.
The rest of the terrain that is within gliding distance is very hilly with lots of buildings so not really an option.
To me .. A beach landing would have a better chance of survival than ditching in the sea (deep water where there is nobody), but would not be worth it if I ended up killing someone or chop a child's arm off - so it would have to be ditching.
What do you think?
Vabsie
Last edited by vabsie; 19th Apr 2012 at 12:33.
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So you've got hills and offices all around, and a stretch of beach in the middle. Are the people in the water or on the beach - if they're in the water they've got less chance of hearing you and you've got less chance of seeing them.
If there's that few of them on the beach, you should be able to miss them. If there's that many of them, they should see you coming and clear a perfect path just like all the Hollywood stunt men and women do!
How exactly are you going to sacrifice one life to save another. If you mean sacrifice one beach goer to save yours, you've miss judged it. You won't miss them and kill yourself, you'll probably just die trying, and still wipe them out.
If there's that few of them on the beach, you should be able to miss them. If there's that many of them, they should see you coming and clear a perfect path just like all the Hollywood stunt men and women do!
How exactly are you going to sacrifice one life to save another. If you mean sacrifice one beach goer to save yours, you've miss judged it. You won't miss them and kill yourself, you'll probably just die trying, and still wipe them out.
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Jan ..True, and I can probably imagine the best answer. Thanks
But the question remains as I have seen a few pilots who have probably not considered this question and have taken the decision to trust their engine for another 5 minutes while going to "check something out" quickly.
Vabsie
But the question remains as I have seen a few pilots who have probably not considered this question and have taken the decision to trust their engine for another 5 minutes while going to "check something out" quickly.
Vabsie
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Actually - if you've done it - before landing up a hill is pretty easy. In many cases landing on an uphill slope is likely to be the most survivable option.
The 'ground roll' is very short - done well you can literally 'spot' the aircraft.
As for hazarding some poor sap who is minding his own business - no way. Landing in shallow water or close to shore is highly unlikely to do anything but get you wet.
From personal experience the one thing you cannot count on is people on the ground understanding that moving out of the way is the correct course of action......
The 'ground roll' is very short - done well you can literally 'spot' the aircraft.
As for hazarding some poor sap who is minding his own business - no way. Landing in shallow water or close to shore is highly unlikely to do anything but get you wet.
From personal experience the one thing you cannot count on is people on the ground understanding that moving out of the way is the correct course of action......
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Obi Wan ..
You have a few people swimming in the shallow water and a few on the beach.
So as I see it your options are either attempt a landing on the beach (small chance of risking someone's life) or ditch in the deeper water where there is nobody.
Why the crying?
Vabsie
You have a few people swimming in the shallow water and a few on the beach.
So as I see it your options are either attempt a landing on the beach (small chance of risking someone's life) or ditch in the deeper water where there is nobody.
Why the crying?
Vabsie
You can create all sorts of scenarios, but personally I think the answer is always the same.
The only life you have a right to risk is your own.
An aeroplane can get written off, and most of us can swim. If you can't, either learn, accept the risk, or don't fly over water.
That said a tiny risk of hitting somebody on a quiet beach, when I can steer the aeroplane until it's stopped, it acceptable. I'm simply trusting to my own skill. That I do every time I fly.
G
The only life you have a right to risk is your own.
An aeroplane can get written off, and most of us can swim. If you can't, either learn, accept the risk, or don't fly over water.
That said a tiny risk of hitting somebody on a quiet beach, when I can steer the aeroplane until it's stopped, it acceptable. I'm simply trusting to my own skill. That I do every time I fly.
G
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Gengis .. Thanks for your answer.
I realise it's a very hypothetical scenario. Your answer however is exactly why I'm asking the question.
I think you are almost saying that you would be OK with a beach landing if the risk of hitting someone is very small because you will trust your own skill.
Based on your advice of only having the right to risk your own life, should ditching in deeper water not always be the default regardless of your skill level to ensure that the risk to others is zero?
Vabsie
I realise it's a very hypothetical scenario. Your answer however is exactly why I'm asking the question.
I think you are almost saying that you would be OK with a beach landing if the risk of hitting someone is very small because you will trust your own skill.
Based on your advice of only having the right to risk your own life, should ditching in deeper water not always be the default regardless of your skill level to ensure that the risk to others is zero?
Vabsie
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Vabsie,
The crying was because you assumed you were able to save others by taking some extreme measure to land the aircraft and have to sacrifice your life, and probably wipe them out anyway.
As Genghis said "The only life you have a right to risk is your own. An aeroplane can get written off, and most of us can swim. If you can't, either learn, accept the risk, or don't fly over water."
Unless you can use The Force
The crying was because you assumed you were able to save others by taking some extreme measure to land the aircraft and have to sacrifice your life, and probably wipe them out anyway.
As Genghis said "The only life you have a right to risk is your own. An aeroplane can get written off, and most of us can swim. If you can't, either learn, accept the risk, or don't fly over water."
Unless you can use The Force
But risk is technically never zero is it. There are people somewhere near the runway almost every time I fly. A beach shifts responsibility for avoidance more onto me, but it's always there anyhow.
G
G
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Obi Wan - I think you misunderstood, but I should have been clearer.
The only "extreme" measure I was considering was landing in deep water with the hope to save those on the beach or those in shallow water.
All good though.
Vabsie
The only "extreme" measure I was considering was landing in deep water with the hope to save those on the beach or those in shallow water.
All good though.
Vabsie
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Risk somebody else's life to save your own..
I think that's what every stduent does when they fly with an instructor
I met a commercial pilot who moved to airlines after instructing and said he was fed up with flying with people who seemed determined to kill him.
Still, I suppose they consent to take the risk.
I met a commercial pilot who moved to airlines after instructing and said he was fed up with flying with people who seemed determined to kill him.
Still, I suppose they consent to take the risk.
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Thats an interesting scenario, I've done most ofmy training flight down in Miami and would always fly up to Fort Pierce on cross country flights . Midway along the route ATC would give us an option to either fly at /above 2500 ft or below 1000 ft . A lot of the guys would descend down to 500 ft just to get the thrill of being so close over the water and of course South Beach and all that jazz. Personally for me I always chose the higher altitude incase the engine just quit , constantly reminding myself of a plan of action if Lady Luck decided to part ways.The answer to this really depends on how populated the beach/water is the basic idea would be to steer clear of as many people possible before making the landing. As an afterthought ditching somewhere in the deep would be another option if I could swim to save my life , else I'd be worried about sand in my eyes.
cheers !
cheers !
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Not hypothetical I'm afraid...
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...RW%2008-06.pdf
Been there, seen it, done it.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...RW%2008-06.pdf
Been there, seen it, done it.
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I would say most pilots would never be thinking in terms of 10% risk of killing someone, 20% risk, etc. you just can't calculate precise probabilities like that. You would simply think; is there a risk of hitting someone if I land on the beach? If yes, then put down somewhere else.
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There is a risk to others every time you set foot in a car !
Really it's something you would need to assess if it ever happened.
If I had selected the only field available and getting closer realised that field was full of kids playing I would turn towards a less suitable landing site even if it added risk to myself.
You have to live with the consequences after!
If I determined the chances of hitting someone was as you said 1% (negligable) I would use my skills, landing spot, direction etc to avoid the person even if by doing so I shortened my landing distance available!
A fairly populated beach and I would put down 100 metres off shore!
We have a responsibility to those on the ground and if I knowingly killed a kid to save my own bacon that would be hard to chew!
It's a judgement you would have to take given what was in front of you on the day !
Pace
Really it's something you would need to assess if it ever happened.
If I had selected the only field available and getting closer realised that field was full of kids playing I would turn towards a less suitable landing site even if it added risk to myself.
You have to live with the consequences after!
If I determined the chances of hitting someone was as you said 1% (negligable) I would use my skills, landing spot, direction etc to avoid the person even if by doing so I shortened my landing distance available!
A fairly populated beach and I would put down 100 metres off shore!
We have a responsibility to those on the ground and if I knowingly killed a kid to save my own bacon that would be hard to chew!
It's a judgement you would have to take given what was in front of you on the day !
Pace
There's no such thing as an absolute. If you fly at night, have an engine failure, and aim for the middle of a black area you may still end up flying into somebody in their bed. If you're flying straight and level at 2000 feet over somebody out for a walk, you may have a first cardiac event and plow directly into them with no control. Both scenarios are unlikely, but stranger things have happened.
In a hang-glider or paraglider, they say that you should consider a ditching to be unsurvivable and I suspect the same might be true for some fixed wing aircraft and flexwings. That said, in the scenario you describe the aircraft is worthless and I would risk first of all the aircraft, then secondly my own life, to avoid killing or hurting other people. That might include crashing the nosewheel into the beach (i.e. aircraft stop faster without a nosewheel) in order to attain a shorter ground roll.
I've often wondered what a 'fly on the wall' landing would be like in a 152. One for the simulator tonight, I think.
In a hang-glider or paraglider, they say that you should consider a ditching to be unsurvivable and I suspect the same might be true for some fixed wing aircraft and flexwings. That said, in the scenario you describe the aircraft is worthless and I would risk first of all the aircraft, then secondly my own life, to avoid killing or hurting other people. That might include crashing the nosewheel into the beach (i.e. aircraft stop faster without a nosewheel) in order to attain a shorter ground roll.
I've often wondered what a 'fly on the wall' landing would be like in a 152. One for the simulator tonight, I think.
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In a hang-glider or paraglider, they say that you should consider a ditching to be unsurvivable
Well, I'm glad.
There certainly have been a lot of fatalities related to ditching though. Cold water shock; wires everywhere; heavy boots etc... My instructor used to compete in the birdman competitions and his view was that the uninitiated would be lucky to make it out.
I can't find the statistics at present, but I do remember reading in a BHPA magazine that drowning was the largest single mode of death in fatal hang-gliding accidents.
There certainly have been a lot of fatalities related to ditching though. Cold water shock; wires everywhere; heavy boots etc... My instructor used to compete in the birdman competitions and his view was that the uninitiated would be lucky to make it out.
I can't find the statistics at present, but I do remember reading in a BHPA magazine that drowning was the largest single mode of death in fatal hang-gliding accidents.